Help Stop The Hysteria

[huski]

Begs the question - how many are used incorrectly?

Good question, given there's presently no mandatory restriction on who can use them, with what dog & how. Neither is there veterinary monitoring.

IMO it is a question we should ask about ALL training tools, because any tool is capable of causing harm to a dog if an idiot is attached to the end of it. It's important to remember that banning a tool like prong collars will do nothing to stop the people who want to abuse their dogs. The only people it will effect are those who use the tool properly.

Edited August 5, 2011 by huski

[mita]

what does a check and a vet to supervise help?

Leave the bloody things be. Have a few select retailers with some brains and just leave it be.

Er....check by a vet monitors that something capable of having a harmful effect, is not doing so with a particular dog. I agree with the Veterinary Association on that one.

Change 'retailers' to 'qualified trainers' in your last sentence & that's presently fine with me. The fact that they've had to attain some 'qualifications' ensures some measure of competency.

Edited August 5, 2011 by mita

[Nekhbet]

My point Mita was that any training equipment has the capability to have a harmful effect and all these are commonly sold in pet shops and even in clinics themselves. Why is not all training equipment put under the one umbrella then of veterinary supervision? Not just the one that 'looks' spikey and evil and all that clap trap

[Maddy]

Personly I don't support the use of prong collars in any way.

That's ok, the group is for people who do support the use of prong collars, you don't have to join (or use them - the beauty of choice, unless you live in Victoria where you don't have any)

I don't use prong collars on my dogs but I believe the choice to use them should be available. I'm not a fan of tools like head collars, but I don't believe ANY tool should be banned - it's a slippery slope IMO and we should be focusing not on banning a tool but proper education on how, why and when to use them.

While I wouldn't use a prong collar on any of my dogs, I'd also never use head collars and seeing them on other greyhounds always makes me cringe.

That said, I wouldn't support banning either just because I wouldn't use them. I have no doubt that they're valuable training aids for many people and to support the banning of one could (as you've pointed out) easily lead to the banning of things I do use (all our dogs wear martingale collars and we do have an e-stim collar for the rare occasion we get a problem barker- I'm sure the animal rights crowd would consider both to be torture devices).

Anyways.. liked your page :D

[sandgrubber]

+1

I think the 'choke chain' should be renamed 'garotte' . . . and anyone speaking against the prong collar should be required to try putting one around their thigh and seeing how painful it isn't. As I've said many times on these forums, the worst unkindness I see with dogs is putting a highly social, moderately intelligent beast in solitary confinement in an unstimulating back yard for the duration of its years. I'm sure if you could give dogs a choice, they'd tolerate a little pain here and there to get stimulation and company.

My point Mita was that any training equipment has the capability to have a harmful effect and all these are commonly sold in pet shops and even in clinics themselves. Why is not all training equipment put under the one umbrella then of veterinary supervision? Not just the one that 'looks' spikey and evil and all that clap trap

[BC4ME]

My vets at work asked me to exlain to them what pinch collars and electric collars are as they had no idea what they did or how they worked. Most vets have no knowledge when it come to behaviour most will put them on Lovan or Clomicalm to slow them down and hope the problem resolves itself.

I educated my vets on the good, the bad and the ugly truths and fictions of "ALL" types of collars and training equipment and training methods. They agreed that all collars can be harmful if not used correctly.

In my time as a vet nurse in a large clinic I have seen 4 embedded flat collar injuries, 3 neck injuries caused by check chains, 1 eyeball popped out caused by a head collar that was fitted and used incorrectly and NO injuries caused by pinch or electric collars.

[HollyE]

I have heard of these collars but never understood what they where for and why they where used so I am unsure if i am for or against them, though I am fairly open minded when it comes to the use of 'tools' because anything if used correctly (these collars, electric, chokers, halti's etc) are ok, it's when you have inexperienced people coming along and using them incorrectly which gives things a bad name.

Are there any links (didn't see any in these pages, either that or i wasn't looking hard enough) that i could have that can explain these and why they're used etc?

[blitz3]

try living in NZ i've never seen a prong collar but got chewed out by a stranger for walking my dog on a choke chain

[mita]

My point Mita was that any training equipment has the capability to have a harmful effect and all these are commonly sold in pet shops and even in clinics themselves. Why is not all training equipment put under the one umbrella then of veterinary supervision? Not just the one that 'looks' spikey and evil and all that clap trap

It seems from what I read on the Vet Association website, that that's why they want for all the major behaviour changing collars that 'work' by having a very unpleasant effect. Vet supervision or qualified trainers. But it's interesting that they single out shock collars as their example

The dogs 'needing' the prong collars are being described in this thread as pretty full-on, failed other means....and because of that, few in number. Seems to argue for restricted use, just in my opinion.

The Vet Association is also leaving the window open for further changes in their policy because hard evidence is not in.

[huski]

I have heard of these collars but never understood what they where for and why they where used so I am unsure if i am for or against them, though I am fairly open minded when it comes to the use of 'tools' because anything if used correctly (these collars, electric, chokers, halti's etc) are ok, it's when you have inexperienced people coming along and using them incorrectly which gives things a bad name.

Are there any links (didn't see any in these pages, either that or i wasn't looking hard enough) that i could have that can explain these and why they're used etc?

We've just written and uploaded a document that talks about some of the myths about prongs collars, that may be a good place to start if you want to learn more about them

http://www.facebook.com/#!/notes/stop-the-hysteria-support-the-use-of-prong-collars-in-australia/bust-the-myths-about-prong-collars/256463711047920

It seems from what I read on the Vet Association website, that that's why they want for all the major behaviour changing collars that 'work' by having a very unpleasant effect. Vet supervision or qualified trainers. But it's interesting that they single out shock collars as their example

The dogs 'needing' the prong collars are being described in this thread as pretty full-on, failed other means....and because of that, few in number. Seems to argue for restricted use, just in my opinion.

The Vet Association is also leaving the window open for further changes in their policy because hard evidence is not in.

But Mita - considering that dog training is, overall, an unregulated industry, what constitutes a 'qualified' trainer?

Someone who has done a DELTA course? Are NDFT certified? Are vet behaviourists? Have PhDs?

[Kavik]

They are kinder than check chains (they have a different action and hurt less - I've tried both on my own skin), with an action like a martingale so are easier to use properly and give more control. Agree with Nekhbet - leave them be.

[corvus]

I educated my vets on the good, the bad and the ugly truths and fictions of "ALL" types of collars and training equipment and training methods.

Well, that's a relief. Did you tell them collars cause cancer? The internets says so, so it must be true.

[aussielover]

How many people who are opposedto them have actually used one on their dog or on themselves?

I would personally never use a halti or head collar on my dog as I believe they are much more aversive than prong collars (assuming both are used correctly) but I wouldn't want to restrict the use for everyone as some people clearly feel more comfortable using them. Any tool that helps an owner feel more in control and the dog get out and about can't be all bad IMO.

[dee lee]

I support their use, but I feel they definitely need to be used in conjunction with training by a trained professional.

They are not a tool for everyone. I used one on my DA dog- I was shown correct usage by a professional, but in translation on my own, I mistimed the corrections due to my own poor nerve & I believe actually made the situation worse.

After several unsuccessful weeks of persisting, I reverted to managing the situation with a martingale.

It was me, not the tool- the prong collar was actually pretty good and I too, like all new prong users should, tried it on myself, with minimal discomfort.

[LisaJ]

I thought they were already banned.

Only in Victoria (the only place in the world, AFAIK, that has banned them).

FYI

There are places - actually entire contries ;) where the use of prong collars on dogs is banned.

Really? Thanks for letting me know, can you direct me to some more information?

Victoria is not the only place on earth with prong collar bans.

Here is a link - not in English

http://www.djurskyddet.se/media/17084/hundhalsband.pdf

Google translation can be great, often hilarious and frequently "up the wall" .

Lots of back packers in Qld who can assist with translation I am sure.

[BC4ME]

I educated my vets on the good, the bad and the ugly truths and fictions of "ALL" types of collars and training equipment and training methods.

Well, that's a relief. Did you tell them collars cause cancer? The internets says so, so it must be true.

Ahh that's why you shouldn't believe everything you read you on the internet or in books which outdate quickly. People should actually step out into the real world and see what it's really like instead of hiding behind computer desks and under mountains of usless bits of paper that make them feel important.

Edited August 5, 2011 by BC4ME

[Inevitablue]

Looking at horses as an example. If I were a horse I'd much rather be a horse in a double bridle with a rider who knew how to ride, and understood the operation of a chain and shank bit rather than an average pony club horse with a snaffle being hauled and see sawed through my mouth.

It's all in the operation and handler skill.

And to counteract the natural horsemanship argument, not everyone owns the dog equivalent of a lowered flight response horse.

Seeing people work in total harmony with their animal is a beautiful thing, however do we put down all animals that dont have the genetics/ past history/ owner skill that gets us there easily?

At the next Pet Expo, a stand offering people the chance to be yanked by a prong, choker and a modified gimp mask could be an interesting experiment! I'd say the Hirudoid cream will be in major demand after the choker.....

I agree with others, leave things the way they are for prongs, and focus on the choke chains so easily purchased at Coles/ Woolies.

[huski]

FYI

There are places - actually entire contries ;) where the use of prong collars on dogs is banned.

Really? Thanks for letting me know, can you direct me to some more information?

Victoria is not the only place on earth with prong collar bans.

Here is a link - not in English

http://www.djurskyddet.se/media/17084/hundhalsband.pdf

Google translation can be great, often hilarious and frequently "up the wall" .

Lots of back packers in Qld who can assist with translation I am sure.

Come on, I can't read that and from the sounds of it neither can you.

You said above there are entire countries that have banned prong collars, if that's true, surely it would not be difficult to provide a list of which countries have done so.

[SezzNJunebug]

I have heard of these collars but never understood what they where for and why they where used so I am unsure if i am for or against them, though I am fairly open minded when it comes to the use of 'tools' because anything if used correctly (these collars, electric, chokers, halti's etc) are ok, it's when you have inexperienced people coming along and using them incorrectly which gives things a bad name.

Are there any links (didn't see any in these pages, either that or i wasn't looking hard enough) that i could have that can explain these and why they're used etc?

I thought this article was well written. It has info on a couple of different training tools. It's up on the FB page but for the people who don't use Facebook

http://dogsintraining.wordpress.com/2011/03/28/why-are-choke-or-chafe-my-only-options/

Every dog is different and we should be allowed to use the training methods and aids that work for the individual. I hate the fact I live in the backward state and someone who has nothing to do with the training of my dog has a say in what I can and cannot do

[LisaJ]

;)

FYI

There are places - actually entire contries ;) where the use of prong collars on dogs is banned.

Really? Thanks for letting me know, can you direct me to some more information?

Victoria is not the only place on earth with prong collar bans.

Here is a link - not in English

http://www.djurskyddet.se/media/17084/hundhalsband.pdf

Google translation can be great, often hilarious and frequently "up the wall" .

Lots of back packers in Qld who can assist with translation I am sure.

Come on, I can't read that and from the sounds of it neither can you.

You said above there are entire countries that have banned prong collars, if that's true, surely it would not be difficult to provide a list of which countries have done so.

;) I have absolutely no problem understanding every word in the linked document, I am sure you can read it however the comprehension might leave a few sections up in the air. ;)

The ban of prong collar use on dogs have been in place in Sweden for a very long time - decades.

The entire Sweden - not just one province/state/area/landskap of the country.

So - Victoria, Australia is not the only place with a ban of prong collar use on dogs.