Help Stop The Hysteria

[BC4ME]

YES!!! Exactly, we need to bring caning back too, used properly extreme pain is a most efficient teaching tool.

Extreme pain what a load of codswallop and yes I agree bring back caning there was a lot less disrespect in schools when it could be used. If you miss behaved and got caught you knew what the consecqences of your actions would be.

I'd be more than happy to see the return of the cane. (Some) kids are so disrespectful now, teachers can't lay a hand on them and they damn well know it. All the teachers are allowed do is re-enforce the good.... Oh hang on, sound familiar?

Begs the question - how many are used incorrectly?

Much, much less than the hundreds of of other, more easily available tools that are misused every day. There are very few retailers of prong collars here in Australia and I am yet to find ONE who would be willing to sell a prong collar to a client without making sure that client has the knowledge to use it correctly.

And yes, this includes those who sell them over the net. Just because you click the purchase button it does not mean that you are necessarily going to get it.

The point is not the fact that everyone HAS to use one but professional trainers in particular and working dog people who require them should be allowed the option of using them if required.

Does every dog need one? No. Will everyone come across one in their lives? No. But there are a select few that really do need them. Why should they suffer without them? Enough dogs have had their lives spared because these collars have made a difference to NOT have them banned

Yes! This.

Just a note the names in the above quote are wrong.

I (BC4ME) stated Extreme pain what a load of codswallop and yes I agree bring back caning there was a lot less disrespect in schools when it could be used. If you miss behaved and got caught you knew what the consecqences of your actions would be.

NOT

YES!!! Exactly, we need to bring caning back too, used properly extreme pain is a most efficient teaching tool.

Don't know how the names got mixed up there. ;)

[Red Fox]

Just a note the names in the above quote are wrong.

I (BC4ME) stated Extreme pain what a load of codswallop and yes I agree bring back caning there was a lot less disrespect in schools when it could be used. If you miss behaved and got caught you knew what the consecqences of your actions would be.

NOT

YES!!! Exactly, we need to bring caning back too, used properly extreme pain is a most efficient teaching tool.

Don't know how the names got mixed up there. ;)

Ooops, I'm sorry BC4ME, no idea how I managed that!

ETA, I think I have fixed it now

Edited August 4, 2011 by SecretKei

[BC4ME]

Just a note the names in the above quote are wrong.

I (BC4ME) stated Extreme pain what a load of codswallop and yes I agree bring back caning there was a lot less disrespect in schools when it could be used. If you miss behaved and got caught you knew what the consecqences of your actions would be.

NOT

YES!!! Exactly, we need to bring caning back too, used properly extreme pain is a most efficient teaching tool.

Don't know how the names got mixed up there. ;)

Ooops, I'm sorry BC4ME, no idea how I managed that!

ETA, I think I have fixed it now

Alls Good

[frufru]

I was a fence sitter about these collars until a friend consulted K9 pro with a very difficult dog - I am amazed at how gentle the corrections are with this collar - the dog basically self corrects. She was completely out of control and well on the way to biting someone and being put to sleep. Obviously there is a huge element of training in there as well but the collar has actually allowed the owner to have the dog in a mental frame of mind where training is effective. So, it is a thumbs up from me but under guidance from a qualified trainer - too many bogan idiots out there.

Edited August 5, 2011 by frufru

[Mervin]

I thought they were already banned.

Only in Victoria (the only place in the world, AFAIK, that has banned them).

Damm , Victoria, such a nanny state. You know , they were the first state to make it law to wear a sear belt, where is the sense in that?

;)

[huski]

Hey Mervin, if you want to discuss the issue of prong collars please feel free to. We've just posted note on the fan page in my OP busting some of the myths relating to the collar. Please feel free to give us your feedback

Of course, if you have any proof that prong collars cause harm to and/or injure dogs I'd love to see it as so far, I am yet to come across any actual proof the tool is harmful or dangerous.

Edited August 5, 2011 by huski

[mita]

If, as someone's said, that the prong collars are a last-ditch strategy for some few dogs, then that's suggesting there shouldn't be open- slather use. Also....if so....then the emphasis should be on criteria for use (which would include 'by whom').

In the meantime, I need to know more about both sides of the case & will do some searching.

Rightly or wrongly, it's good to see some folk stepping past the the threat in the 'hysteria' label to indicate they don't agree with the collars. Also good to see someone posting a personal experience re a dog in danger of PTS ...which changed their mind.

[Brennan's Mum]

I agree with others about the many tools more readily available which are used incorrectly such as Choke chains, Head collars etc. Education is the most important thing...dog owners should be encouraged to seek out assistance on proper use of any tool from a knowledgeable trainer/ behaviourist.

You don't have to use the tool to support the cause. My dog is on a head collar because the behaviourist I hired deemed that at this point in time a head collar is the best tool for myself and my dog. What I support is people's right to use these tools, the right to choose.

Sadly there has and always be people who are cruel to animals. Banning prong collars ( and other training tools) will not reduce the risk of animal abuse .

[MyBoxerGirl]

I usually only read on here but this is something that for us changed our lives. We have used just about every collar/training device and I have to say the prong (for us) was the kindest to our girl and had the best results. I have seen terrible damage done by check chains which you can buy just about anywhere, from my experience prongs are not so easy to get and the places you can get them ensure you know how to use them before they will even sell them to you. Not all dogs respond to positive training methods alone and for these dogs there comes a point that the owner has to make a choice - ours was the help of a professional trainer who believes in "toolkits" (including prong collars) - not just treat pouches, but for many others it is surrendering their dog because it is deemed "untrainable" by some treat pouch wearing clueless who has no alternatives to offer. It really is about the operator and their knowledge in how to use it and not the equipment. I truely believe that banning these training aids will mean more people will surrender difficult dogs or they will be locked away in their yards for their whole lives.

I personally would like to have the freedom to choose.

[mita]

Research had an interesting start. There's an Australian Pet Dog Training group, which totally rejects the use of prong collars (among other things).

http://www.apdt.com.au/about-us/code-of-ethics.html

Linking to the Australian Veterinary Association, their disquiet centred on shock collars. But they indicate that their positions rest with any evidence that can be forthcoming about long-term negative effects of such collars on dogs ( true to their base in science). Interestingly, they don't mention prong collars, by name, but refer to collars that have an unpleasant effect.

Not surprisingly they opt for such behviour-controlling collars to be used under the supervision of a vet or suitably qualified trainer.

So far, I'd think there ought be no open-slather use, at present...so, at the very least, restriction.

[megan_]

Research had an interesting start. There's an Australian Pet Dog Training group, which totally rejects the use of prong collars (among other things).

http://www.apdt.com.au/about-us/code-of-ethics.html

Linking to the Australian Veterinary Association, their disquiet centred on shock collars. But they indicate that their positions rest with any evidence that can be forthcoming about long-term negative effects of such collars on dogs ( true to their base in science). Interestingly, they don't mention prong collars, by name, but refer to collars that have an unpleasant effect.

Not surprisingly they opt for such behviour-controlling collars to be used under the supervision of a vet or suitably qualified trainer.

So far, I'd think there ought be no open-slather use, at present...so, at the very least, restriction.

I'd like them to be available only through limited, qualified trainers - and someone should have to have a 1:1 training session before they buy it. That said, I feel exactly the same way about correction collars and even gentle leaders.

[LisaJ]

I thought they were already banned.

Only in Victoria (the only place in the world, AFAIK, that has banned them).

FYI

There are places - actually entire contries ;) where the use of prong collars on dogs is banned.

[mita]

Yes, megan. And I'd only add, mandatory vet 'sign on'' & check. That is, if restriction is favoured over banning, according to present evidence. There may well be other evidence I haven't come across yet which could favour banning.

Also open-mind to future change in any restriction policy, if long-term effects come up, as adverse or not.

Edited August 5, 2011 by mita

[megan_]

What do those opposed to the collars want instead? Should ~*Shell's*~ Zero be dead? After all, she tried many methods with many trainers (including Delta ones) and nothing else worked. I believe she was advised by some of those trainers to PTS? Sero is now a therapy dog!

People seem to miss the fact that these are not meant to be long term tools, but short term tools coupled with behaviour modification - which is why I believe peope should only be able to get them when they've had a proper consult.

I am a very positive oriented "trainer", so I don't support prong collars lightly (to clarify, I'm not a trainer but this is how I train my dogs). However, as a last resort, after trying other methods, I would use a prong collar on a very aggressive dog because the alternative is a dead dog.

The people who throw stones often haven't lived with a genuinely aggressive dog.

[huski]

I thought they were already banned.

Only in Victoria (the only place in the world, AFAIK, that has banned them).

FYI

There are places - actually entire contries ;) where the use of prong collars on dogs is banned.

Really? Thanks for letting me know, can you direct me to some more information?

[huski]

Megan, exactly how I feel. Shell exhausted all the "positive only" training methods and was told the dog should be PTS. Would the people who oppose the use of prongs rather the dog had been put down?

[sandgrubber]

I live in a state / country where you can buy a prong collar in the local feed store . . . you may need to go to a larger town to buy a halti or martingale. There are no restrictions on e-collars. There are loads of pit bulls, mostly street-bred. You do see prong collars misused . . . mostly on pit bulls. Specifically, you sometimes see dogs constrained in the front yard, tied . . . with a prong collar around the neck. The population that has pittis and uses prong collars tends to be on or near minimum wages and poorly educated. Mixed feelings about all of this, but I'd rather see the dogs under control than jumping fences and attacking the other dogs in the neighborhood. The good, but ugly thing about prong collars is that dogs don't push them. If someone did a study of the necks of dogs who are cruelly kept tied with a prong collar . . . and you'll get this if you don't put constraints on the use of prong collars . . . I doubt you'd find much physical damage. As for psychological damage, I'd guess that the prong collar was a minor contribution to a much larger problem.

I thought they were already banned.

Only in Victoria (the only place in the world, AFAIK, that has banned them).

FYI

There are places - actually entire contries ;) where the use of prong collars on dogs is banned.

[Nekhbet]

what does a check and a vet to supervise help? Why nto make that mandatory for ALL dogs no matter the equipment. There are a glaring majorty of dogs needing professional supervision out there that will go nowhere near a prong or e-collar. I constantly see dogs with bruises and rubbed bare skin from 'gentle' equipment but noone seems to have an issue with that.

As for making it through a trainer, the Government recognises purely positive organisations as dog trainers, so Delta, Gentle Modern School of dog training etc. None of which would advocate or use them, same with e-collars. As for veterinary behaviourists show me one that can actually use any myriad of equipment properly in a physical context. I have not seen one yet that has the efficiency of a well versed behavioural trainer.

Leave the bloody things be. Have a few select retailers with some brains and just leave it be.

[mita]

Begs the question - how many are used incorrectly?

Good question, given there's presently no mandatory restriction on who can use them, with what dog & how. Neither is there veterinary monitoring.

[Tilly]

I had a dog that I was unable to walk in public at all by the time he was 12 months old. We got him at 4 months and worked on his training every day but after a couple of experiences with off-leash dogs attacking him - he started wanting to get in first.

We tried to distance work and build up to getting closer ... but basically I couldn't even get out of my front yard without him going mental and pulling like a freight train. I ended up never walking him because if he reacted then I had no chance of holding him back and I was worried he would attack another animal (or even a person) and would end up getting destroyed.

What a miserable life he had with barely leaving our yard twice a week.

I got introduced to a prong collar and my initial reaction was - NO WAY!!!! But I was told to try it so I put it on my leg and gave a correction ... and then a harder correction because I couldn't believe it didn't hurt. I then tried the same correct with a check chain and the pain was unbelievable ... I had massive black bruises almost instantly (I bruise easierly).

A dog that spent most of his time in the backyard then got to experience and enjoy walks around the block again. I could take him down to the local park and work on building up his tolerance of other dogs and get him focusing on my rather then going into melt down at the sight of another dog. I was not stressing at the sight of another dog (because I was confident I could now handle him) and transferring that stress to him.

I agree that a prong collar shouldn’t be used on some dogs – but after working with a high prey drive dog in full on meltdown – I wouldn’t use anything else.

My younger boy now – while he is absolutely perfect at home – he tends to get a bit reactive now that his boy bits have kicked in. I initially had him in a flat collar but he kept slipping out of the collar no matter how tight it was … we moved to a limited slip collar … but they left welts on his neck from the nylon rubbing when he pulled. When his focus was on something – the person at the other end of the leash didn’t exist. I needed something to remind him I was on the lead – so I tried the check chain. Unfortunately he was getting into the habit of pulling and the check chain was useless because I couldn’t hold him back and effectively correct him on the chain. No-pull harnesses left bald patches and red spots on his skin from the pulling.

After attending an obedience club we moved onto the head halti – this was an absolute disaster. If there was no-one around then he walked nicely on it …but as soon as he focused was on something (he goes from 0 to 100 in micro seconds) and he didn’t want to be by my side he would turn towards me and twist and shake his head trying to get out of the halti (or any restraint for that matter) … which resulted in a huge welt across his nose in seconds.

We then put him on a prong collar … and he has had no further injuries or bald patches caused by pulling and rubbing of collars etc. The biggest problem we then had was finding an obedience club to go to where the prong was accepted and where we could work on his socialisation … which thankfully we have now found. We are currently working on clicker training but I still use the prong – and he certainly doesn’t object to it.