Help Stop The Hysteria

[sandgrubber]

I was and I have felt a stim on my hand first. It does not hurt but it's an odd feeling, sort of like a split second of pins and needles (like a dead foot), but I still don't like not knowing when it's going to happen - I would be fine if I had the remote. ;) However saying that I have absolutely no desire to ever use an e-collar again, I just wanted to see what it was like.

In good use of an e-collar, the dog can predict. You want to give the dog control, and ability to avoid the stim. Ie, dog should think "If I do X, I will get stim. If I do Y, I'm safe. I think I'll do Y." Or, "I know how to turn this damn thing off, all I have to do is come when I'm called".

[dee lee]

Yes as the tool and handlers go hand in hand. It is futile putting prong on the dog without the handler making it do it's job.

As you said trainers make mistakes, even experienced ones, and with the right dog this can dangerous for whatever the dog associates the correction with.

This is a really good point and it does make me rethink this whole discussion.

I used a prong under the instruction of a very experienced trainer and still managed to stuff it up.

My dog redirected its aggression to me in a similar circumstance to one that MJ described earlier.

Multiple times- as obviously it learnt quickly that it was an effective way to make me back off with the correction. She would see another dog, react aggressively to it, I would correct and she would lunge and snap at me. I simply did not have the nerve to subsequently give a further correction, feeling I would not be able to prevent an even more aggressive reaction.

Despite further assistance from my trainer (I just don't have it in me to use one properly), I gave up on the Prong and then used a martingale, which allowed me to hold my dog at arms length (thank god she was under 20kgs) when she redirected her aggression at me.

So with all that history, I think that whilst I do not support an outright ban, they should be only used on a restricted basis, ie with correct training and ongoing support from a qualified trainer. I agree with MJ, we need to consider that the damage done may not necessarily be on the dog.

If I understand your post correctly, your dog redirected aggression toward you when you applied a correction with a prong collar.

Because of this, you then changed to a martingale, and still experienced the same redirection when you applied correction with that.

Yet you single out the prong collar as the training tool to be wary of

I have seen dogs redirect after correction on flat collars, correction chains and head collars. I have also seen dogs redirect aggression when no correction at all has been given. Should we restrict use of all these training tools as well?

As many others have already stated, education is the key, and this applies to all the tools we currently use in training dogs, not just the prong.

No, I was merely backing up MJ's argument that the prong can result in redirected aggression.

I see your point & I will admit, this particular dog was too much for my limited training ability. It was definitely a case of the trainer not the tool.

Personally, I felt better able to contain the redirection on another tool- holding a dog up by a prong is just not an option.

I would hate to think someone might try if in the same situation.

[corvus]

If I understand your post correctly, your dog redirected aggression toward you when you applied a correction with a prong collar.

Because of this, you then changed to a martingale, and still experienced the same redirection when you applied correction with that.

Yet you single out the prong collar as the training tool to be wary of

A note of caution: behaviour doesn't occur in isolation of all other experiences. There is no way of knowing whether dee lee's dog would have reacted the same way to the martingale if she hadn't first used the prong. It's probably likely given dogs that redirect can be set off by any number of things and a martingale and a prong correction are not so different, but we can't assume that the reaction the second time would have happened if the martingale had been used first rather than the prong.

This doesn't mean we shrug off what happened with the martingale. It just means we keep in the backs of our minds that the prong came first so we are not clear on the effect of the martingale alone. We don't know what came before the prong, either, so more caution is warranted.

It's not exactly unheard of, though. See below.

I have seen dogs redirect after correction on flat collars, correction chains and head collars. I have also seen dogs redirect aggression when no correction at all has been given. Should we restrict use of all these training tools as well?

There has been a study done on dogs about the incidence of aggression during training. Well, a few, but I'm thinking of one in particular. If I remember correctly, it was most common after a physical correction, but also occurred after a verbal correction and sometimes without a correction. Another one surveyed dog owners and also found that it wasn't uncommon for dogs to respond to confrontational training methods with aggression.

I personally have never seen redirection occur when the dog is not in a negative state for whatever reason. Frustration is considered one route to an aggressive response by most experienced animal trainers I have ever heard speak. It pays to be aware of this no matter what method you're using.

[mita]

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But Mita - considering that dog training is, overall, an unregulated industry, what constitutes a 'qualified' trainer?

Someone who has done a DELTA course? Are NDFT certified? Are vet behaviourists? Have PhDs?

That's actually a good question, huski. It's more self-regulated at the moment as at least one group has set themselves up as an association of dog trainers.

There's also the term animal/dog 'behaviorist' which seems to be used by people with academic qualifications in animal/dog behaviour. They appear to target problem-challenging behaviours by explaining them via some base from the scientific literature.

But, then, so do some people who'd describe themselves as 'dog trainers'. While others just keep to 'good pet manners' -training with dogs that are across the average range & wisely refer on the problem-challenging dogs.

Edited August 9, 2011 by mita