Help Stop The Hysteria

[huski]

Just curious, what training courses do you run for Customs?

K9's written about the courses he's run for AQIS etc on his website before. http://www.k9pro.com.au/pages/AQIS-Training-Workshops-%252d-Handling-Dangerous-and-Aggressive-Dogs.html

What is wrong with using a prong collar as a first resort if it is in fact the best tool for the dog and handler in question?

You know that reasoning is flawed, don't you? There is no possible way to judge that objectively.

Nor is there anyway to "objectively judge" what training method is best for each dog etc. However, I'm sure you agree that there are methods or tools that would be ineffective or incorrect (i.e. won't give them the best or desired result) for a dog/handler to use with their dog. Why would you plug away with a method or tool that clearly will not or does not work?

To me, this is part of the problem. It's impossible to use any one example to base a decision on because there are too many variables. It's impossible to use a collection of examples to base a decision on because there are too many variables. Seriously, if you want to present a good argument that's going to convince anyone sitting on the fence or on the other side, you have to leave the individual examples and emotive roundabout arguments behind and stick to facts. As far as I'm aware the only established facts about prongs is that they are associated with behaviour indicative of distress and that they are effective correction devices.

It would cost next to nothing to do a survey of dog owners and establish how many people actually use prong collars and how often. I would be surprised if the numbers suggested they were in wide use. That alone is a reasonable argument for not banning them IMO. Much more reasonable than "they save lives" and "they are sometimes the best tool".

I wouldn't attempt to form an entire 'argument' based on one example but IMO giving examples of how the tool can and has worked very well doesn't hurt and can help illustrate the benefits of the tool. It's a proven marketing strategy.

Banning prongs is going to lead to the banning of all control tools and therefore the banning of pet dogs?? Can anyone spell "hysteria"?

I'm not going to suggest that banning prong collars would lead to banning of pet dogs but you'd have to be stupid to think that if we allow the government to ban a tool like prong collars when there is no evidence they cause harm, it's a slippery and dangerous slope that will set a precedent in further regulation of dog owners and trainers.

Edited August 7, 2011 by huski

[cassie]

I used a prong on my first Bernese, he was a big strong male weighing close to what I did at the time. We bought it from a trainer in Adelaide and were given a lesson on how to use it correctly. I went from dreading our walks (Zephyr was in no way aggressive, quite the opposite, he would just pull and pull and wanted to meet everyone and every dog) to absolutely loving them, and being proud of the perfect companion I had on the end of the lead. We don't use it anymore, it was a temporary trainer.

Those who are for the prong are giving many examples (read: PROOF!) of their effectiveness and also that they are not physically damaging to dogs. My boy was another who loved getting into his prong as it meant we were going for a walk. However those who are anti prong are offering nothing in the form of proof at all. "They look nasty" doesn't mean a thing. Maybe we could paint them pink and cover them in feathers?

[GoldenGirl85]

Genuine question

I have a big problem with Lexi and in particular when we come across a cat or some (not all) dogs on walks, I have no control over her until we're well past the offending animal. When I can I try to take her off the path and do some focus work until the animal has gone past, but that isn't always possible and it makes for a very difficult walk for me, especially when I know there is a cat nearby, Lexi will often lunge for them, not aggressively, but because she wants to chase, and with her being half of my weight, it makes it very difficult to keep her under control, martingales and front leading harnesses have no effect on her when she is this driven for them...would a prong be a suitable tool to help this? I would love to be able to walk her past a cat and not have her want to make chase

[Teebs]

I am not going to get into all the arguments. but just want to say that I have in past used a prong on Kaos (via K9 Pro) and it was the best tool for her. I had so much more control over her and it made walks so much fun.

So many people who didnt like them were amazed at how gentle they were when they tried it. I havent had to use it for a while, i just went looking for it this morning and cant find it, i hope i havent lost it.

I had a disagreement with a famous trainer over these a few years ago at a NDTF course, he told the whole class they were against the law in NSW. I told him a few times that that was not true, but he told me he was right and that was that.

[Staranais]

Genuine question

I have a big problem with Lexi and in particular when we come across a cat or some (not all) dogs on walks, I have no control over her until we're well past the offending animal. When I can I try to take her off the path and do some focus work until the animal has gone past, but that isn't always possible and it makes for a very difficult walk for me, especially when I know there is a cat nearby, Lexi will often lunge for them, not aggressively, but because she wants to chase, and with her being half of my weight, it makes it very difficult to keep her under control, martingales and front leading harnesses have no effect on her when she is this driven for them...would a prong be a suitable tool to help this? I would love to be able to walk her past a cat and not have her want to make chase

Probably lots of ways to deal with this. But personally, I wouldn't just buy and put on a prong, check chain, head collar, or any other correction device, in this situation. I'd personally retrain the loose leash walking behaviour (and the "leave" command) in a low distraction environment, then practice with increasing distractions, introducing correction collar if and when necessary. A professional trainer to guide you through the process would probably be a big help.

But, other advice may differ.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Staranais

[GoldenGirl85]

Genuine question

I have a big problem with Lexi and in particular when we come across a cat or some (not all) dogs on walks, I have no control over her until we're well past the offending animal. When I can I try to take her off the path and do some focus work until the animal has gone past, but that isn't always possible and it makes for a very difficult walk for me, especially when I know there is a cat nearby, Lexi will often lunge for them, not aggressively, but because she wants to chase, and with her being half of my weight, it makes it very difficult to keep her under control, martingales and front leading harnesses have no effect on her when she is this driven for them...would a prong be a suitable tool to help this? I would love to be able to walk her past a cat and not have her want to make chase

Probably lots of ways to deal with this. But personally, I wouldn't just buy and put on a prong, check chain, head collar, or any other correction device, in this situation. I'd personally retrain the loose leash walking behaviour (and the "leave" command) in a low distraction environment, then practice with increasing distractions, introducing correction collar if and when necessary. A professional trainer to guide you through the process would probably be a big help.

But, other advice may differ.

Oh I wouldn't just go out and buy a prong (or any other 'fixit') lol, we don't really have 'loose lead' walking exactly, she walks out in front of me, with the lead firm, but she doesn't pull, if she does a couple of checks on her flat collar is all that is needed to remind her to stop pulling...until we come across the above situation.

Lately Ive been walking her with a double ended lead clipped to a flat collar and a front leading harness, just to give me a bit extra control when it's needed, we got a bit slack with training for a bit there, mostly I'm just using the end of the lead attached to the collar, but I have the extra 'power' there with the harness if its needed. Today we came across a cat and she went mental as always, but this cat didn't run off, so I found that I can walk Lexi past with about a 10m gap between us and the cat and I can get her focus back, if I could do that all the time I could slowly close the gap, but usually a cat will hiss and carry on then take off, and Lexi will want to chase when it does

[Kavik]

Goldengirl

I agree with Staranais,

It is not as simple as what tool you pick, getting a prong will not in itself fix the problem. I agree focus work or something like LAT and building up your distractions slowly and at a distance at first will help you as it helps with self control, a type of corrective device may be useful at some point in the process but is not the only thing you will need.

[GoldenGirl85]

Goldengirl

I agree with Staranais,

It is not as simple as what tool you pick, getting a prong will not in itself fix the problem. I agree focus work or something like LAT and building up your distractions slowly and at a distance at first will help you as it helps with self control, a type of corrective device may be useful at some point in the process but is not the only thing you will need.

I understand that, what I'm trying to say is that I have very little control over her when she spots a cat, I was simply enquiring as to whether or not a prong might help me regain control while Im working the distraction training...

forget I even asked :rolleyes:

[Kavik]

Yes it may help you to regain control, but the best way is not to wait til they are way beyond threshold and then correct them, regardless of tool.

No need for rolleyes man.

ETA: What focus work are you doing? LAT sounds like it might be useful here.

What I am trying to explain is that a reminder to pay attention is not going to be as effective regardless of tool without the proper groundwork.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Kavik

[Brennan's Mum]

I've admitted several times that I *used* to be a slightly smug 'ONLY PR' person. I had ( and still have) all the book,and 'liked' all the FB pages which promoted PR and called for bans on the 'vicious evil Prong collars' (as well as E-collars/ Choke chains etc).

However, once I opened myself up to a more balanced approach, hired a behaviourist with an excellent reputation..my thoughts changed.

I tried the Prong collar on my arm ( could not fit around my head ). I had the behaviourist pull on it..and then I had her 'yank' on it-- I asked her to do the worst case scenario- yank on the prong as hard as you can....and it did not hurt- I had no marks or all. In fact I could not believe how little it 'hurt'-- after all, this was the 'big bad prong collar' I had spent the first 2 years of my dogs life judging.

I then had the trainer do the same with the Choke chain...and as others have said-- it hurts more.

[m-j]

We can't allow the RSPCA and a group of vocal, anti-prong collar people to ban a tool when there is no evidence that the tool actually causes harm.

I'm assuming you mean documented evidence, I can give 2 seperate examples where the use of a prong collar has caused the dog to react aggressively toward the handler, one an owner the other a very experienced trainer, as far as I'm concerned a highly undesirable response. Neither of these were documented.

Obviously a few have tried the collar on themselves and state that they don't inflict pain, these dogs obviously thought that the tool inflicted enough of an adversive to deem a reaction like that. The dog that bit his owner had never been aggressive before and hasn't been since.

I have only been to 3 seminars where they have been talked about and demoed and I have used one once so don't feel I know enough about these collars to comment on whether they should be banned or not, but to say they can't cause harm I don't believe is strictly correct.

[aussielover]

We can't allow the RSPCA and a group of vocal, anti-prong collar people to ban a tool when there is no evidence that the tool actually causes harm.

I'm assuming you mean documented evidence, I can give 2 seperate examples where the use of a prong collar has caused the dog to react aggressively toward the handler, one an owner the other a very experienced trainer, as far as I'm concerned a highly undesirable response. Neither of these were documented.

Obviously a few have tried the collar on themselves and state that they don't inflict pain, these dogs obviously thought that the tool inflicted enough of an adversive to deem a reaction like that. The dog that bit his owner had never been aggressive before and hasn't been since.

I have only been to 3 seminars where they have been talked about and demoed and I have used one once so don't feel I know enough about these collars to comment on whether they should be banned or not, but to say they can't cause harm I don't believe is strictly correct.

I think they key here is that ALL tools can cause harm but when used properly- does the prong have more chance of causing harm than any other tool?

I think you could get the same response from using a number of other tools inappropriately/incorrectly.

I've seen a dog react and bite its owner when given a correction on a flat collar.

[Tilly]

I am sure something bad can be said about every collar and harness ... do we ban the lot or look at better education and training?

[m-j]

[i think they key here is that ALL tools can cause harm but when used properly- does the prong have more chance of causing harm than any other tool?

I think you could get the same response from using a number of other tools inappropriately/incorrectly.

I've seen a dog react and bite its owner when given a correction on a flat collar.

I see what you are saying and agree but I've been to quite a few seminars, handled many dogs with other training aids on, a lot more than 3 times, and have had one dog react with me on a no pull harness, the dog was fully loaded so I wasn't surprised. Neither of the two dogs in the examples that reacted were loaded.

The experienced trainer is highly regarded and has been an advocate of prongs for many years so you would assume that the trainer would know how to use the collar correctly.

[corvus]

Nor is there anyway to "objectively judge" what training method is best for each dog etc. However, I'm sure you agree that there are methods or tools that would be ineffective or incorrect (i.e. won't give them the best or desired result) for a dog/handler to use with their dog. Why would you plug away with a method or tool that clearly will not or does not work?

:rolleyes: "Best"? "Incorrect"? "Desired results?" "Clearly"? You have missed my point. It doesn't matter whether I agree or not. It doesn't matter who agrees or doesn't. By the way, I have always loved your use of quotation marks. :D

I wouldn't attempt to form an entire 'argument' based on one example but IMO giving examples of how the tool can and has worked very well doesn't hurt and can help illustrate the benefits of the tool. It's a proven marketing strategy.

Then market away, honey. It's nothing the other side can't counter with their own illustrative examples.

I'm not going to suggest that banning prong collars would lead to banning of pet dogs but you'd have to be stupid to think that if we allow the government to ban a tool like prong collars when there is no evidence they cause harm, it's a slippery and dangerous slope that will set a precedent in further regulation of dog owners and trainers.

Call me stupid, then. I'm pretty sure it'd be a first for me, ignoring jest. I call the above fear mongering. The precedent was set years ago.

[Steve K9Pro]

[i think they key here is that ALL tools can cause harm but when used properly- does the prong have more chance of causing harm than any other tool?

I think you could get the same response from using a number of other tools inappropriately/incorrectly.

I've seen a dog react and bite its owner when given a correction on a flat collar.

I see what you are saying and agree but I've been to quite a few seminars, handled many dogs with other training aids on, a lot more than 3 times, and have had one dog react with me on a no pull harness, the dog was fully loaded so I wasn't surprised. Neither of the two dogs in the examples that reacted were loaded.

The experienced trainer is highly regarded and has been an advocate of prongs for many years so you would assume that the trainer would know how to use the collar correctly.

K9: So if the dogs that reacted with handler aggression had been wearing flat collars, what would be the reason MJ?

[Andisa]

[i think they key here is that ALL tools can cause harm but when used properly- does the prong have more chance of causing harm than any other tool?

I think you could get the same response from using a number of other tools inappropriately/incorrectly.

I've seen a dog react and bite its owner when given a correction on a flat collar.

I see what you are saying and agree but I've been to quite a few seminars, handled many dogs with other training aids on, a lot more than 3 times, and have had one dog react with me on a no pull harness, the dog was fully loaded so I wasn't surprised. Neither of the two dogs in the examples that reacted were loaded.

The experienced trainer is highly regarded and has been an advocate of prongs for many years so you would assume that the trainer would know how to use the collar correctly.

No matter what experience the experienced handler has - not all dogs will react the same. Even the best and most experienced trainers will still get a dog that makes them think twice, they may even cop a bite or two. A tough dog requires tough handling to get through to them, lets also think about the safety of the handler too. A flat collar or choke collar will be friggen useless and far more dangerous than a PP collar.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Andisa

[huski]

:rolleyes: "Best"? "Incorrect"? "Desired results?" "Clearly"? You have missed my point. It doesn't matter whether I agree or not. It doesn't matter who agrees or doesn't. By the way, I have always loved your use of quotation marks. :D

I haven't missed your point Corvus. My point is - how do we determine anything we do in dog training is the 'right' thing to do with our dogs? When you choose a method to use with your dogs how do you make that decision? Is it ever anything you can objectively judge?

And, by the way, I've always loved your use of smarmy smiley faces. Though you really don't need to use them, your posts are arrogant and condescending enough without them.

Then market away, honey. It's nothing the other side can't counter with their own illustrative examples.

Well, dear, it sure worked for the anti-prong collar team in VIC didn't it...

Call me stupid, then. I'm pretty sure it'd be a first for me, ignoring jest. I call the above fear mongering. The precedent was set years ago.

Surely you can't think that if we continue to ban tools like prongs, it won't have any carry-on effect on other aspects of dog ownership?

[m-j]

K9: So if the dogs that reacted with handler aggression had been wearing flat collars, what would be the reason MJ?

The dog that I knew before and after didn't react when wearing his collar or when put into a no pull harness. He didn't like it as he couldn't get what he wanted when he wanted but he didn't react aggressively. The other dog I have no idea if it would have reacted on a flat collar or not but he was quite happy to wear the check chain before and after the demo, but as I'm sure you know several hours is only a very brief look into that dogs life, maybe that dog would react on a flat collar, who knows.

[m-j]

A flat collar or choke collar will be friggen useless and far more dangerous than a PP collar.

How could it be far more dangerous if the PP collar is also causing a reaction?