Help Stop The Hysteria

[Steve K9Pro]

Yes as the tool and handlers go hand in hand. It is futile putting prong on the dog without the handler making it do it's job.

As you said trainers make mistakes, even experienced ones, and with the right dog this can dangerous for whatever the dog associates the correction with.

If the tug and the food mistakes resulted in 2 out 8 dogs becoming aggressive yes I would be very dubious. I have never seen that ratio applied to any other tool. The dog coming back at me with a harness on was 1 in many many many dogs, with factors that increased the liklihood of that happening that weren't present in the prong situations.

K9: I might like to see the criteria that was used to determine why prongs went on these dogs, even in hindsight it was clearly not the right call or was misused. The results tell us that.

Having that said, I dont disagree with anyone that would say that delivering a "insert correction collar here" to some dogs can produce aggression. The prong surely isn't a one size fits all fix.

I think from memory,you have seen me train with a prong MJ and I will hazard a guess to say that it didnt produce any aggression toward me.

I also haven't had a dog redirect onto me from a prong correction for a good 18 months maybe, and I can tell you that I A: work with a lot of aggressive dogs and B: work with a lot of prong collars. There are a heap of people here and on our facebook page that are telling of how I taught them to use a prong collar and they aren't being bitten.

So I feel the 2/8 ratio is not common.

Finally, not saying it never ever happens, just saying it isn't par for the course when using a prong collar.

Edited August 8, 2011 by K9Pro

[Steve K9Pro]

Just curious, what training courses do you run for Customs?

K9's written about the courses he's run for AQIS etc on his website before. http://www.k9pro.com.au/pages/AQIS-Training-Workshops-%252d-Handling-Dangerous-and-Aggressive-Dogs.html

AQIS is not CUSTOMS....... They are completely separate organisations.

He said that he runs training courses for Govern agencies, including Customs in his thread. I was curious to ask what courses for Customs he has run???

Cheers

K9: sorry I missed the question, last year I ran multiple drive workshops aimed at scent detection for AQIS, there were a number of Customs handlers in each of those courses, the link should be this one.

Edited August 8, 2011 by K9Pro

[Quickasyoucan]

Genuine question, but do people think that a lot of the prong's image problem comes from the way it looks.

I mean if we look at check chains (hanging in the aisle of the supermarket every time I do my shopping), they have a potential to strangle a dog if severely misused, not to mention that awful strangulated panting sound I remember from dogs on choke chains when I was young, can't have been good for the windpipe. But they look pretty innocuous and I haven't seen any campaigns out there to ban them.

I bet a lot of people who think prongs are cruel have never seen one used just an image of the prongs on the inside of the collar, so I am wondering is it just because it looks a bit 'off', because like loads of other people I have tried it round my neck, my arm, my leg and I can tell you it sure doesn't hurt, or even pinch as much as a check chain tightened around your arm (wasn't game enough to put that round my neck LOL).

So is it really a true "image" problem like the tough looking bloke with tatts we assume is dodgy or is it an actual useage or potential misuseage problem??

[poodlefan]

I dream of a world in which people who would seek to ban a useful training tool in some circumstances had actually seen one, felt the pressure applied by one to their own flesh and had some experience with the kind of dogs that might require such a tool to be walked safely and controlled by their owners.

In the real world however, ignorance or misinformation is no barrier to stop people from expressing an opinion.

In the meantime, what would the anti-prong brigade recommend be fitted to a 50+ kilo dog that is capable of dragging its owner on any other method of restraint? Shall we go for a ring through the animal's nose?

But hey, lets not worry about the kind of folk for whom the prong might represent the last best hope of actually being able to control their dogs.

For the record, I have never used a prong collar, nor am I likely to require one now or in the future. However the idea of seeing one more training device removed from the training tool boxes of trainers who actually know what the hell they're doing with very difficult large dogs depresses the living hell out of me.

Meanwhile, lets get back to listening to the opinions of those who've never trained a challenging dog in their lives. :rolleyes:

Want to see me recoil at a training device in use? Show me a puppy or any dog under knee height fitted with a halti. Or show me a dog in a halti being walked by a child. *shudders*

Edited August 8, 2011 by poodlefan

[corvus]

Thank you, K9Pro!

[trinabean]

I dream of a world in which people who would seek to ban a useful training tool in some circumstances had actually seen one, felt the pressure applied by one to their own flesh and had some experience with the kind of dogs that might require such a tool to be walked safely and controlled by their owners.

In the real world however, ignorance or misinformation is no barrier to stop people from expressing an opinion.

In the meantime, what would the anti-prong brigade recommend be fitted to a 50+ kilo dog that is capable of dragging its owner on any other method of restraint? Shall we go for a ring through the animal's nose?

But hey, lets not worry about the kind of folk for whom the prong might represent the last best hope of actually being able to control their dogs.

For the record, I have never used a prong collar, nor am I likely to require one now or in the future. However the idea of seeing one more training device removed from the training tool boxes of trainers who actually know what the hell they're doing with very difficult large dogs depresses the living hell out of me.

Meanwhile, lets get back to listening to the opinions of those who've never trained a challenging dog in their lives. :rolleyes:

Want to see me recoil at a training device in use? Show me a puppy or any dog under knee height fitted with a halti. Or show me a dog in a halti being walked by a child. *shudders*

[poodlefan]

Curious if anyone has tried a prong on thier neck?

Not a tool I would use personally but not something that needs to be banned.

No, I tried it on my upper arm.

I tried the e-collar on my neck. ;)

[dee lee]

Yes as the tool and handlers go hand in hand. It is futile putting prong on the dog without the handler making it do it's job.

As you said trainers make mistakes, even experienced ones, and with the right dog this can dangerous for whatever the dog associates the correction with.

This is a really good point and it does make me rethink this whole discussion.

I used a prong under the instruction of a very experienced trainer and still managed to stuff it up.

My dog redirected its aggression to me in a similar circumstance to one that MJ described earlier.

Multiple times- as obviously it learnt quickly that it was an effective way to make me back off with the correction. She would see another dog, react aggressively to it, I would correct and she would lunge and snap at me. I simply did not have the nerve to subsequently give a further correction, feeling I would not be able to prevent an even more aggressive reaction.

Despite further assistance from my trainer (I just don't have it in me to use one properly), I gave up on the Prong and then used a martingale, which allowed me to hold my dog at arms length (thank god she was under 20kgs) when she redirected her aggression at me.

So with all that history, I think that whilst I do not support an outright ban, they should be only used on a restricted basis, ie with correct training and ongoing support from a qualified trainer. I agree with MJ, we need to consider that the damage done may not necessarily be on the dog.

[m-j]

So I feel the 2/8 ratio is not common.

Finally, not saying it never ever happens, just saying it isn't par for the course when using a prong collar.

Which brings me back to my original statement that they shouldn't come with a no harm done status.

As should other pieces of equipment, like many others I'm not a fan of head collars for potential of misuse and harm to the dog but they are not the tool this thread is about.

[JoeK]

Ok to spell it out.

The prong collar applied pressure to the dog.

The dog became aggressive due to the collar correction.

Instead of becoming aggressive toward the collar that supplied the pressure, the dog REDIRECTED that aggression toward the handler.

No Mr K9 what you saying is wrong.

K9: well of course your welcome to your opinion.

The dog is reacting on the handler because the handler try to fight the dog applying pain on the collar.

K9: well I guess that you use the collar much differently to me, I dont fight the dogs.

Many working dogs wont be taking collar correction challenge lightly, you try a nice working Shepherd, a Malinois or Dutchie on the prong in fighting drive and see what is happening or try on a dominant dog with good level of social aggression you dont be using prong collars or ecollars on dogs like this unless you want getting bitten. The prong is good tool, but MJ giving good advice on the wrong dog it can be elevating aggression or causing handler aggression, many good working dogs wont be taking prong and ecollar corrections without a fight, you should know that Mr K9 is too late to blame handler error after the dog attacks the handler.

K9: So Joe, you have been able to tell us here that if for instance I had a dog in front of me that has a good level of social aggression,I shouldn't use prong collar. So if I did and got bit, would it be my fault or the prongs fault?

I also noted that you edited your post, I don't think the breeders you mentioned would be too happy if you were promoting the dogs they breed as handler aggressive...

Mr K9, my point is you ignoring the view of MJ to suit your prong collar argument, what MJ says is true and can happen is what I say. There is big difference between prong and flat collar to raise aggression on agitataion training, prong and ecollar is good tool for taking the dog to the fight and can happen with pet dog if someone with little experience just slap a prong on the wrong dog. What you say argue with MJ says to the readers here the prong wont be lifting aggression the same can happen on a harness, I tell you now, if a dog go the handler on a harness he will go the handler harder on a prong which in my opinion is wrong tooling for handler aggression, is better on the Eds DD collar to taking the drive off the dog not ramping up with the prong yes?

MJ say he/she know of dog when fitting the prong caused handler aggression, yes this can happen and I seen many times this too same on ecollars and plenty people could be having pet dog like this is what MJ saying and in your position MR K9 where everyone stand by your word, you needing to acknowleging what MJ say not saying as I reading from you it wont happen, it can. If you know what you talking about in protection training, you swap flat agitation collar for the prong next time to lifting aggression to generate fighting drive in a good dog and tell me I am wrong please? As I saying before, if the prong or ecollar shutting down the dog on the bite, you training the wrong dogs in protection, a good dog needing elevation in the fight otherwise he run away when you need him the most you see?

Joe

[JoeK]

So I feel the 2/8 ratio is not common.

Finally, not saying it never ever happens, just saying it isn't par for the course when using a prong collar.

Which brings me back to my original statement that they shouldn't come with a no harm done status.

As should other pieces of equipment, like many others I'm not a fan of head collars for potential of misuse and harm to the dog but they are not the tool this thread is about.

Dear MJ

You are right no matter what Mr K9 saying the prong can start off handler aggression in the wrong dogs it happens often and I thank you on your posting for readers on the board to know this fact.

Joe

[RallyValley]

Curious if anyone has tried a prong on thier neck?

Not a tool I would use personally but not something that needs to be banned.

No, I tried it on my upper arm.

I tried the e-collar on my neck. ;)

Never tried a prong but done the e-collar - the anticipation is way worse then the stim but it's an awful feeling waiting for the stim.

[huski]

LOL RV - only because you think it will hurt!

I love getting people to try my e-collar and asking when I'm going to stim them when I already have several times and they just havent noticed I don't think anyone who has felt an e-collar stim before would be afraid or anxious waiting for it.

[Steve K9Pro]

J: Mr K9, my point is you ignoring the view of MJ to suit your prong collar argument,

K9: No I am not ignoring this at all, and as you can clearly see it is just not my argument. Do you think prong collars should be banned?

what MJ says is true and can happen is what I say.

K9: Although I note your English has improved greatly in this post since the last one ;) maybe you didn't read what I wrote or didn't understand it.

So I feel the 2/8 ratio is not common.

Finally, not saying it never ever happens, just saying it isn't par for the course when using a prong collar.

J: There is big difference between prong and flat collar to raise aggression on agitataion training,

K9: sorry if I missed it but, who other than you is talking about protection dogs or agitation training?

J: prong and ecollar is good tool for taking the dog to the fight and can happen with pet dog if someone with little experience just slap a prong on the wrong dog.

K9: Oh so your saying the that trainer that put the prong on the dog in MJs story put the prong collar on the wrong dog? I am pretty sure I said that, lots of times.

What you say argue with MJ says to the readers here the prong wont be lifting aggression the same can happen on a harness, I tell you now, if a dog go the handler on a harness he will go the handler harder on a prong which in my opinion is wrong tooling for handler aggression, is better on the Eds DD collar to taking the drive off the dog not ramping up with the prong yes?

K9: I didnt say that a prong collar wont raise aggression in some dogs, I said I am not having that reaction commonly, my clients are not having that reaction commonly, I put this down to the assessment I carry out on the dog and the method in which I use the collar and teach others to. So that said means the problem is not common to the tool if the tool is chosen based on the dogs temperament, the problem at hand and the skill of the handler.

Air blocking collars are designed to take drive out of a dog, so they have their place of course, like every other tool, but if you air block a fearful dog, it too can redirect aggression as the dog panics, correct?

MJ say he/she know of dog when fitting the prong caused handler aggression, yes this can happen and I seen many times this too same on ecollars and plenty people could be having pet dog like this is what MJ saying and in your position MR K9 where everyone stand by your word, you needing to acknowleging what MJ say not saying as I reading from you it wont happen, it can.

K9: Read what I wrote, I didnt say it CANT happen. I can avoid this problem of occurring in most if not all situations by assessing the dog and choosing the right tool for the dog. When that is done correctly, you will not get aggression increase.

If people choose to listen to what I say, its backed by the results they have seen.

If you know what you talking about in protection training, you swap flat agitation collar for the prong next time to lifting aggression to generate fighting drive in a good dog and tell me I am wrong please?

K9: Why would I do that Joe? I know the what the outcome would produce.

As I saying before, if the prong or ecollar shutting down the dog on the bite, you training the wrong dogs in protection, a good dog needing elevation in the fight otherwise he run away when you need him the most you see?

K9: now your making shit up and I dont mean your user name! Where did I ever say such a thing? lol

Hey whilst your reading this, there was a black shepherd that you linked us to a while ago, is that the sort of working dog that you wont use a prong collar on?

Edited August 8, 2011 by K9Pro

[m-j]

So I feel the 2/8 ratio is not common.

Finally, not saying it never ever happens, just saying it isn't par for the course when using a prong collar.

Which brings me back to my original statement that they shouldn't come with a no harm done status.

As should other pieces of equipment, like many others I'm not a fan of head collars for potential of misuse and harm to the dog but they are not the tool this thread is about.

Dear MJ

You are right no matter what Mr K9 saying the prong can start off handler aggression in the wrong dogs it happens often and I thank you on your posting for readers on the board to know this fact.

Joe

Thanks Joe

[RallyValley]

LOL RV - only because you think it will hurt!

I love getting people to try my e-collar and asking when I'm going to stim them when I already have several times and they just havent noticed I don't think anyone who has felt an e-collar stim before would be afraid or anxious waiting for it.

I was and I have felt a stim on my hand first. It does not hurt but it's an odd feeling, sort of like a split second of pins and needles (like a dead foot), but I still don't like not knowing when it's going to happen - I would be fine if I had the remote. ;) However saying that I have absolutely no desire to ever use an e-collar again, I just wanted to see what it was like.

Anyway I guess the point is with all these controversial tools I have no desire to see them banned, because I believe in free choice, just because I believe these tools won't suit me and my dogs (and I have no need for them) it does not mean it's exactly what someone else might need.

[Lollipup]

When I first started getting into training I was leaning toward the "purely positive" mob. I saw pictures of prongs and had the common shocked reaction and couldn't believe people would use them. I was judging purely off looks and others opinions. I then decided to go into the NDTF course with an open mind and was properly educated about prongs and other training tools. I now own one, have used them and have tried it on my own neck. Also tried check chains and e collars. I am so glad I decided to open my mind as it has opened up pathways for me and enabled me to further develop my skills and keep learning. I do not support a ban of any training tool. I support further education. If people are against them then don't use them. I'm sure some tools shouldn't be available to anyone like check chains in supermarkets. But I'm glad for trainers to have access to tools for their tool boxes and I hope it stays that way. There are so many cruel things happening to dogs because of idiots and this is what people should be concentrating on stopping, not trying to stop trainers having access to useful training tools.

[trojka]

I dream of a world in which people who would seek to ban a useful training tool in some circumstances had actually seen one, felt the pressure applied by one to their own flesh and had some experience with the kind of dogs that might require such a tool to be walked safely and controlled by their owners.

In the real world however, ignorance or misinformation is no barrier to stop people from expressing an opinion.

In the meantime, what would the anti-prong brigade recommend be fitted to a 50+ kilo dog that is capable of dragging its owner on any other method of restraint? Shall we go for a ring through the animal's nose?

But hey, lets not worry about the kind of folk for whom the prong might represent the last best hope of actually being able to control their dogs.

For the record, I have never used a prong collar, nor am I likely to require one now or in the future. However the idea of seeing one more training device removed from the training tool boxes of trainers who actually know what the hell they're doing with very difficult large dogs depresses the living hell out of me.

Meanwhile, lets get back to listening to the opinions of those who've never trained a challenging dog in their lives. :rolleyes:

Want to see me recoil at a training device in use? Show me a puppy or any dog under knee height fitted with a halti. Or show me a dog in a halti being walked by a child. *shudders*

x2

I'd just like to add that it doesn't take a 50+kg, super aggressive dog. My dog is only around the 30kg mark, but strong and fit. I'm probably about twice his weight, but he has managed to pull me off my feet when he unexpectedly lunged at a dog behind a fence. Using a prong (under instructions of a qualified trainer) gave me back control, and with that came confidence and calmness, which allowed me to teach my dog what I wanted from him.

[JoeK]

J: Mr K9, my point is you ignoring the view of MJ to suit your prong collar argument,

K9: No I am not ignoring this at all, and as you can clearly see it is just not my argument. Do you think prong collars should be banned?

what MJ says is true and can happen is what I say.

K9: Although I note your English has improved greatly in this post since the last one ;) maybe you didn't read what I wrote or didn't understand it.

So I feel the 2/8 ratio is not common.

Finally, not saying it never ever happens, just saying it isn't par for the course when using a prong collar.

J: There is big difference between prong and flat collar to raise aggression on agitataion training,

K9: sorry if I missed it but, who other than you is talking about protection dogs or agitation training?

J: prong and ecollar is good tool for taking the dog to the fight and can happen with pet dog if someone with little experience just slap a prong on the wrong dog.

K9: Oh so your saying the that trainer that put the prong on the dog in MJs story put the prong collar on the wrong dog? I am pretty sure I said that, lots of times.

What you say argue with MJ says to the readers here the prong wont be lifting aggression the same can happen on a harness, I tell you now, if a dog go the handler on a harness he will go the handler harder on a prong which in my opinion is wrong tooling for handler aggression, is better on the Eds DD collar to taking the drive off the dog not ramping up with the prong yes?

K9: I didnt say that a prong collar wont raise aggression in some dogs, I said I am not having that reaction commonly, my clients are not having that reaction commonly, I put this down to the assessment I carry out on the dog and the method in which I use the collar and teach others to. So that said means the problem is not common to the tool if the tool is chosen based on the dogs temperament, the problem at hand and the skill of the handler.

Air blocking collars are designed to take drive out of a dog, so they have their place of course, like every other tool, but if you air block a fearful dog, it too can redirect aggression as the dog panics, correct?

MJ say he/she know of dog when fitting the prong caused handler aggression, yes this can happen and I seen many times this too same on ecollars and plenty people could be having pet dog like this is what MJ saying and in your position MR K9 where everyone stand by your word, you needing to acknowleging what MJ say not saying as I reading from you it wont happen, it can.

K9: Read what I wrote, I didnt say it CANT happen. I can avoid this problem of occurring in most if not all situations by assessing the dog and choosing the right tool for the dog. When that is done correctly, you will not get aggression increase.

If people choose to listen to what I say, its backed by the results they have seen.

If you know what you talking about in protection training, you swap flat agitation collar for the prong next time to lifting aggression to generate fighting drive in a good dog and tell me I am wrong please?

K9: Why would I do that Joe? I know the what the outcome would produce.

As I saying before, if the prong or ecollar shutting down the dog on the bite, you training the wrong dogs in protection, a good dog needing elevation in the fight otherwise he run away when you need him the most you see?

K9: now your making shit up and I dont mean your user name! Where did I ever say such a thing? lol

Hey whilst your reading this, there was a black shepherd that you linked us to a while ago, is that the sort of working dog that you wont use a prong collar on?

Mr K9 is not about how you can handle dogs on the prong becuase you only one litte fish in the big pond and you cant be speaking for the experience of everybody who can buy and use the prong if is legal across the board. Because you dont be having trouble on the prong is good, so we all here give you a clap for the good work, but it goes further than your little pond in legalisation of the prong yes?.

Edited August 8, 2011 by JoeK

[Echo]

Yes as the tool and handlers go hand in hand. It is futile putting prong on the dog without the handler making it do it's job.

As you said trainers make mistakes, even experienced ones, and with the right dog this can dangerous for whatever the dog associates the correction with.

This is a really good point and it does make me rethink this whole discussion.

I used a prong under the instruction of a very experienced trainer and still managed to stuff it up.

My dog redirected its aggression to me in a similar circumstance to one that MJ described earlier.

Multiple times- as obviously it learnt quickly that it was an effective way to make me back off with the correction. She would see another dog, react aggressively to it, I would correct and she would lunge and snap at me. I simply did not have the nerve to subsequently give a further correction, feeling I would not be able to prevent an even more aggressive reaction.

Despite further assistance from my trainer (I just don't have it in me to use one properly), I gave up on the Prong and then used a martingale, which allowed me to hold my dog at arms length (thank god she was under 20kgs) when she redirected her aggression at me.

So with all that history, I think that whilst I do not support an outright ban, they should be only used on a restricted basis, ie with correct training and ongoing support from a qualified trainer. I agree with MJ, we need to consider that the damage done may not necessarily be on the dog.

If I understand your post correctly, your dog redirected aggression toward you when you applied a correction with a prong collar.

Because of this, you then changed to a martingale, and still experienced the same redirection when you applied correction with that.

Yet you single out the prong collar as the training tool to be wary of

I have seen dogs redirect after correction on flat collars, correction chains and head collars. I have also seen dogs redirect aggression when no correction at all has been given. Should we restrict use of all these training tools as well?

As many others have already stated, education is the key, and this applies to all the tools we currently use in training dogs, not just the prong.

Edited August 8, 2011 by Echo