Help Stop The Hysteria

[stormie]

Has anyone said a prong collar can't cause harm (genuine question)? I certainly think they could cause harm, e.g. if the handler really cranked and yanked on them, especially if they'd fit it incorrectly too.

But, I think a more relevant question is, can they cause more harm than any of the other legal correction collars? I'm not sure about that. I'd hate to see the result of a head collar misfitted then really yanked and cranked, for example. Even a flat collar could cause harm in that situation.

See I would think the most harm a prong could do would be superficial skin wounds? Where as constant pressure from a flat/check/martingale could damage the internal structures?

[Staranais]

Has anyone said a prong collar can't cause harm (genuine question)? I certainly think they could cause harm, e.g. if the handler really cranked and yanked on them, especially if they'd fit it incorrectly too.

But, I think a more relevant question is, can they cause more harm than any of the other legal correction collars? I'm not sure about that. I'd hate to see the result of a head collar misfitted then really yanked and cranked, for example. Even a flat collar could cause harm in that situation.

See I would think the most harm a prong could do would be superficial skin wounds? Where as constant pressure from a flat/check/martingale could damage the internal structures?

Well fitted, yes, I'd agree with you 100%. But poorly (loose) fitted and used by an abusive moron, I'd imagine they could potentially do more than surface damage. That's only supposition, though, and could be dead wrong (and I don't think it's a good argument to ban the collar, either. Lots of things can do damage when improperly or abusively used).

I haven't seen any injuries from a prong collar myself, but I guess it might not be fair to read much into that since they're pretty uncommon around here. Injuries from any collar type appear to be a pretty uncommon thing to see in practice, however. The only cases I've seen myself have been where the owner has been clearly negligent and left a collar on far too long, letting it erode into the animal's neck. Not pretty.

I agree with your point though that a collar that can constrict indefinitely is probably a lot less safe than one which cannot. Check chains for example have apparently been suspected to cause Horner's syndrome, although I don't know if there are any actual substantiated case reports out there, or just a high index of suspicion.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Staranais

[corvus]

Out of interest Corvus do you think your way of training is the best way and everything else is not????

I only ask as it seems that as far as you are concerned only your way is the right way.

Oh, FFS. I have been careful not to even MENTION a way of training. Let me spell it out to you: As far as I'm concerned there is NO WAY to tell what way is the right way or the best way. Was that clear?

Therefore, because there is no way to tell, there is no sense in claiming that a prong collar is the best or only way to solve a problem, and there is no point in me answering questions about what I think is the right or wrong way to train some hypothetical dog I have never laid eyes on.

These methods debates are the equivalent of a bar fight. People only get into them for a bit of biffo.

[m-j]

I'd be interested though, if the dog reacted with a handler bite to a mild pinch collar correction, I'm thinking that it could potentially have reacted exactly the same way to something else surprising and unpleasant that happened? e.g. someone stepping on it's toe? Still doesn't make it sensible to use a pinch collar on such a dog, of course (at least not without teaching it what the correction means).

No not that I'm aware of and I have known the owner since he got the dog and still do.

[m-j]

It's a TRAINER error lol. Ban trainers lol

Why is it trainer error?

[Jeff Jones]

It's a TRAINER error lol. Ban trainers lol

Why is it trainer error?

The trainer has obviously made a mistake in the incident you are talking about.

[Steve K9Pro]

The trainer chooses the tool, the trainer decides how much pressure, the trainer decides if the level in stimuli is correct to proceed with grainy / behavior modification.

When the trainer applies a correction and the dog does anything other than what the trainer was aiming at - it's trainer error.

[m-j]

The trainer chooses the tool, the trainer decides how much pressure, the trainer decides if the level in stimuli is correct to proceed with grainy / behavior modification.

When the trainer applies a correction and the dog does anything other than what the trainer was aiming at - it's trainer error.

I agree.

I know 8 examples, with different dogs, of a prong being used isn't many and maybe the ratio I have seen is not the norm and as I have said I know I'm really not "qualified" to say to ban or not, but when you see 8 examples of a prong being used used by and under the instructions of 3 different experiened trainers/instructors where 2 of them go a little bit pear shaped I think it is reasonable to be a bit dubious about them and claiming they do no harm.

[Steve K9Pro]

So you blame the collar because it highlights the mistakes of the trainer?

I must have watched at least 2000 people use a tug toy in a way that reduced drive.

I can't even say the tug they used were all of a common type, so should we be dubious of playing tug.

I can recall many dogs that have learned thongs other than what the trainer was trying to teach them with food, is food risky?

I am not trying to single you out MJ, I am just trying to highlight that the tool should not really be the focus.

[JoeK]

K9Pro, on 07 August 2011 - 03:49 PM, said:

K9: So if the dogs that reacted with handler aggression had been wearing flat collars, what would be the reason MJ?

The dog that I knew before and after didn't react when wearing his collar or when put into a no pull harness. He didn't like it as he couldn't get what he wanted when he wanted but he didn't react aggressively. The other dog I have no idea if it would have reacted on a flat collar or not but he was quite happy to wear the check chain before and after the demo, but as I'm sure you know several hours is only a very brief look into that dogs life, maybe that dog would react on a flat collar, who knows.

Sorry MJ, this is a case of redirected aggression as the handler / trainer didn't control the stimulus level. It happens, we dont know how the dog feels at every moment.

In the first case, this dog would have reacted in the same manner each time the dog was placed under the same circumstance which was "He didn't like it as he couldn't get what he wanted when he wanted".

In the second I guess it should remain undocumented as you don't know the case history of the dog.

I had a dog here on Thursday that when I gave him prolonged eye contact (5 seconds or up),he would attack you. He was wearing a harness, he displayed this behavior regardless of what tool he was wearing, and in spite of the tool.

The trigger was eye contact, ban eyes? lol

The examples you give are good support for people seeking help, not whether a prong collar can cause harm, as I pointed out the above was a handler / trainer error, the handler / trainer just used the prong collar to make the error.

Mr K9, is very common for good trait in the protection dog to elevate aggression from pain, is what you want from a good dog get more nasty from the pain if someone fight him, if you training dogs that closing off in the prong collar for protection, you train the wrong dogs for the job. Is common for aggression elevating on the prong in some dogs is the reason we use often the prong for agitation work on the decoy, what MJ say is true, Many handler and trainer have been bit from the dog with prong and ecollar correction.

Joe

[OSoSwift]

Out of interest Corvus do you think your way of training is the best way and everything else is not????

I only ask as it seems that as far as you are concerned only your way is the right way.

Oh, FFS. I have been careful not to even MENTION a way of training. Let me spell it out to you: As far as I'm concerned there is NO WAY to tell what way is the right way or the best way. Was that clear?

Therefore, because there is no way to tell, there is no sense in claiming that a prong collar is the best or only way to solve a problem, and there is no point in me answering questions about what I think is the right or wrong way to train some hypothetical dog I have never laid eyes on.

These methods debates are the equivalent of a bar fight. People only get into them for a bit of biffo.

No need to swear or yell for that matter I was asking a genuine question. Nice people skills.

If the answer was yes then of course you will never agree with a prong, check chain, head halter or anything else. I was wondering if you were open to otehr methods or not, but you have answered my question quite well I think.

Each dog is an individual so you cannot say any particular method is the right or only way, however I think being a little open minded never goes astray.

[JoeK]

Ok to spell it out.

The prong collar applied pressure to the dog.

The dog became aggressive due to the collar correction.

Instead of becoming aggressive toward the collar that supplied the pressure, the dog REDIRECTED that aggression toward the handler.

No Mr K9 what you saying is wrong. The dog is reacting on the handler because the handler try to fight the dog applying pain on the collar. Many working dogs wont be taking collar correction challenge lightly, you try a nice working Shepherd, a Malinois or Dutchie on the prong in fighting drive and see what is happening or try on a dominant dog with good level of social aggression you dont be using prong collars or ecollars on dogs like this unless you want getting bitten. The prong is good tool, but MJ giving good advice on the wrong dog it can be elevating aggression or causing handler aggression, many good working dogs wont be taking prong and ecollar corrections without a fight, you should know that Mr K9 is too late to blame handler error after the dog attacks the handler.

Joe

Edited August 7, 2011 by JoeK

[Steve K9Pro]

J: Mr K9, is very common for good trait in the protection dog to elevate aggression from pain, is what you want from a good dog get more nasty from the pain if someone fight him, if you training dogs that closing off in the prong collar for protection, you train the wrong dogs for the job. Is common for aggression elevating on the prong in some dogs is the reason we use often the prong for agitation work on the decoy, what MJ say is true, Many handler and trainer have been bit from the dog with prong and ecollar correction.

Joe

K9: I cant see anywhere I said that people have not been bit after delivering a prong collar correction. What I did say was it was and IS a trainer issue when you make the call to use a tool and you make a mistake with that dog. Dogs have redirected on front attach harnesses as MJ said, it is not limited to or only with the prong but the dog in question coupled with the trainer in question.

[Steve K9Pro]

Ok to spell it out.

The prong collar applied pressure to the dog.

The dog became aggressive due to the collar correction.

Instead of becoming aggressive toward the collar that supplied the pressure, the dog REDIRECTED that aggression toward the handler.

No Mr K9 what you saying is wrong.

K9: well of course your welcome to your opinion.

The dog is reacting on the handler because the handler try to fight the dog applying pain on the collar.

K9: well I guess that you use the collar much differently to me, I dont fight the dogs.

Many working dogs wont be taking collar correction challenge lightly, you try a nice working Shepherd, a Malinois or Dutchie on the prong in fighting drive and see what is happening or try on a dominant dog with good level of social aggression you dont be using prong collars or ecollars on dogs like this unless you want getting bitten. The prong is good tool, but MJ giving good advice on the wrong dog it can be elevating aggression or causing handler aggression, many good working dogs wont be taking prong and ecollar corrections without a fight, you should know that Mr K9 is too late to blame handler error after the dog attacks the handler.

K9: So Joe, you have been able to tell us here that if for instance I had a dog in front of me that has a good level of social aggression,I shouldn't use prong collar. So if I did and got bit, would it be my fault or the prongs fault?

I also noted that you edited your post, I don't think the breeders you mentioned would be too happy if you were promoting the dogs they breed as handler aggressive...

Edited August 7, 2011 by K9Pro

[corvus]

I am not trying to single you out MJ, I am just trying to highlight that the tool should not really be the focus.

But K9, surely in this discussion the tool should be the focus seeing as it is the tool that is controversial. I'm sure we can all agree that any tool can be misused by trainers and that is the very thing that colours people's opinions of them. But if it can be said of any tool then how can it be used as an argument for or against any tool? The issue in my mind is not whether it can be misused but its potential for harm when it is. By harm I mean physical and emotional. The way it is spoken about you would think it was either a torture device or made of cotton candy. Why can't we just have a rational dialogue about it where we don't have to take sides? It appears I've already been categorised as anti-prong by virtue of the fact that everyone knows I like my clickers and counter-conditioning. As it happens, I have been on the fence about prongs for years because no one has ever given me a simple list of pros and cons. I have never seen a rational weighing of the pros and cons. Only marketing.

[Steve K9Pro]

C: But K9, surely in this discussion the tool should be the focus seeing as it is the tool that is controversial.

K9: I dont have a problem with that Corvus, what I am saying is that, there is no point in saying that the experiences MJ reported are limited to the prong collar.

I'm sure we can all agree that any tool can be misused by trainers and that is the very thing that colours people's opinions of them. But if it can be said of any tool then how can it be used as an argument for or against any tool?

K9: I guess it can be used as an argument when they are only talking about banning one tool and the reasons they give aren't limited to said tool. For example, someone says that they think the prong should be banned because it supplies an aversive. If it is one of many tools that supply aversive s, why is it being singled out?

The issue in my mind is not whether it can be misused but its potential for harm when it is. By harm I mean physical and emotional.

K9: I agree, but both of those harms can be caused by many things too, even just cruel handlers, inconsistent rewards.

The way it is spoken about you would think it was either a torture device or made of cotton candy.

K9: Agreed, by people who sit on either side of the fence, it isn't either really.

Why can't we just have a rational dialogue about it where we don't have to take sides? It appears I've already been categorised as anti-prong by virtue of the fact that everyone knows I like my clickers and counter-conditioning. As it happens, I have been on the fence about prongs for years because no one has ever given me a simple list of pros and cons. I have never seen a rational weighing of the pros and cons. Only marketing.

K9: Box cutters can be used to cut boxes or take over aircraft, we know this, so the potential for harm in those is great. The prong isn't as wide spread as that, but like everything, including a simple box cutter, it can be missused.

This isn't something the prong promotes, nor is it limited to the prong collar, so I don't think it should be a reason to ban.

There are many ways the handler can use the prong, when Joek said if you give a prong correction... we would need to look at what a correction is in his mind and compare that to mine. What is the state of mind the handler must be in when they pull the leash, how is the timing, what level of intensity is the correction delivered at.

Now go back to the start and change the word prong to "insert other tool" and the same applies in his correction schedule. I may put said tool on same dog and not get the same reaction.

So to me it is more about: -

Is the tool useful to help me help people with their dogs? if the answer is yes then I will use it.

Does the tool cause harm no matter how you use it? if yes then I wont use it.

Just about every other argument that seems to pop up is in relation to trainer error or hearsay, things such as: -

*Sharpening prongs, I have heard this so much but in all my time never ever saw a sharpened prong collar

*Redirected aggression, this is not happening to me and I use prongs, why?

*They cause injuries, never have I come across any proof of these injuries, many chiro's prefer the prong

*You can't use them on soft dogs, I have and the results have been amazing, not in my head but in front of a crowd of people in seminars

*They are cruel, No they are just metal, some people are cruel and stupid.

I could go in but have work to do but I will say, many times people will bring me an aggressive dog for rehab, I may choose the prong collar to teach the dog how to walk on a loose leash and thus develop an impulse control foundation. I do not ever advise people to correct the dog for being aggressive. I don't believe this is the fastest way forward.

People will say, "cant you teach a dog to walk on a loose leash without a prong". Obviously I can, but for me to coach the owner on this and get it reliable may take say 10 hours. Which is fine if all they were looking for is a loose leash walk, but walking on a loose leash is a tiny part of the rehab program and if we just focus on that for 5 weeks, the time spent could have been used on desensitization and then counter conditioning.

In under ten minutes most times I produce a dog that walks for the owner happy and receiving rewards and not pulling the owner, we can then use the time right after that to start with aggression work.

Why the rush people say? I agree, come to me 20 times dog owner! But the reality is that it is a mental game, if the owner cant see light they give up, the dog loses. There are many ways I can rehab aggression the best for the dog is the one that keeps the owner trying.

Once owner stops trying, dogs life is limited.

Edited August 7, 2011 by K9Pro

[corvus]

No need to swear or yell for that matter I was asking a genuine question. Nice people skills.

You didn't ask me a question. You accused me of something I find thoroughly repugnant and framed it as a question. Nice people skills. I sometimes wonder what people think I do all day. I took a 60% pay cut in pursuit of dog training truths and you accuse me of making up my own truths. Thems fighting words.

If the answer was yes then of course you will never agree with a prong, check chain, head halter or anything else. I was wondering if you were open to otehr methods or not, but you have answered my question quite well I think.

Do you think the way you train is the best way? If not, why are you training the way you're training? Why would you do something to your dogs that you don't think is the best for them? Do you see why this is a pointless question? You seem to think I only have one way of training or something. I find that a little bit offensive as well.

[m-j]

So you blame the collar because it highlights the mistakes of the trainer?I must have watched at least 2000 people use a tug toy in a way that reduced drive.

I can't even say the tug they used were all of a common type, so should we be dubious of playing tug.

I can recall many dogs that have learned thongs other than what the trainer was trying to teach them with food, is food risky?

I am not trying to single you out MJ, I am just trying to highlight that the tool should not really be the focus.

Yes as the tool and handlers go hand in hand. It is futile putting prong on the dog without the handler making it do it's job.

As you said trainers make mistakes, even experienced ones, and with the right dog this can dangerous for whatever the dog associates the correction with.

If the tug and the food mistakes resulted in 2 out 8 dogs becoming aggressive yes I would be very dubious. I have never seen that ratio applied to any other tool. The dog coming back at me with a harness on was 1 in many many many dogs, with factors that increased the liklihood of that happening that weren't present in the prong situations.

[Yesmaam]

I have been undecided on this issue for the last few days. My immediate thought was 'yep, ban them', but then I thought that they are actually a useful tool for gaining control of very large, reactive/aggressive dogs while training them, as long as they are used correctly and as a last resort. So I then thought maybe I don't support a ban after all.

But after thinking about it for several days, I have come to the conclusion that I do support a ban.

Sweden has been mentioned as another country that has banned prong collars. What hasn't been mentioned is that in Sweden it is also illegal to crate a dog at home while you are out of the house. This isn't because crates are evil, but because a lot of people were overusing the crates and the dogs were suffering because of it. When you look at banning something, you have to weigh the usefulness up against the damage potential. And the Swedish government deemed the damage potential of crates higher than the usefulness, and so they were banned.

The same thing applies to prong collars. Yes, they CAN be a useful tool, when used correctly. However, most people will not use them correctly, or use them too much, or use them as a first resort.

How many people will be using the prong collar as a quick and permanent fix, rather than as a temporary training tool? 90%? While 10% might use them correctly and temporary. Should we sacrifice the 90% of dogs where the prong collar is used incorrectly and possibly damaging both physically and mentally to the dogs, for the sake of giving the 10% this training tool? Also, how many dogs are really so large and aggressive that NO other tool can be used to control them? I am guessing not many.

And so, when you weigh the usefulness of the prong collar up against the potential for damage, a ban makes perfect sense.

Sweden always put in a good team at the WUSV's each year. I can tell you now that they use the prong on many of their competition dogs (if not all their dogs).

Re: most people will not use them correctly, or use them too much, or use them as a first resort.

I use the prong as my first choice of training collar. I have done so for years and dont bother wasting time with choker or anything else etc..). Have never injured my dogs though and funny enough, I have never seen a dog being injured as a result of wearing a prong collar either. I don't use them to walk my dog as this is not what they are designed for. They are a training tool and as such I use them while training only. I have seen many many people using them for all sorts of reasons (coming from an IPO background) but no injuries to dogs.....

The prong is the preferred collar for most IPO clubs and the like where highly driven, thick nerved dogs are being trained. I am not talking about some of the bubbly happy driven dogs you see in some of the ANKC clubs either; I am referring to workingline dogs bred for the job. The prong is not designed to be used as a high stress training tool. It is to be used with a bit of feeling and is designed so that you don’t need to use anywhere near the same force required as some other conventional collars that are on the market. They are not designed to be tightly fitted around the dog’s neck either. As a rule of thumb, a two finger gap needs to be between the collar and the neck. So if needed a quick, snappy correction can be applied allowing the stress to be switched off the moment the collar is released. Remember, Dogs work naturally from stress to comfort. Incorrect use of any training aid sends unclear messages to the dog which can result in undesired behaviour so I only recommend that these collars are used by trainers who know what they are doing, ie: not Jo Blow from up the road etc….

I don't agree that prongs should be available to Jo Blow and the general public but I also don't support a ban on a very useful training tool (not that I would ever comply with a ban anyway)....

[Yesmaam]

Just curious, what training courses do you run for Customs?

K9's written about the courses he's run for AQIS etc on his website before. http://www.k9pro.com.au/pages/AQIS-Training-Workshops-%252d-Handling-Dangerous-and-Aggressive-Dogs.html

AQIS is not CUSTOMS....... They are completely separate organisations.

He said that he runs training courses for Govern agencies, including Customs in his thread. I was curious to ask what courses for Customs he has run???

Cheers