Help Stop The Hysteria

[JulesP]

I haven't missed your point Corvus. My point is - how do we determine anything we do in dog training is the 'right' thing to do with our dogs? When you choose a method to use with your dogs how do you make that decision? Is it ever anything you can objectively judge?

I think it is up to the individual to decide their own truth. I also think it is fairly pointless to try and debate stuff like this as both sides just end up talking at the other. No one is going to change their mind. The most you can hope for is that respect for other people's opinions is achieved.

Do I think prong collars should be banned? Well I am not really into banning and rules in general. So no. Will I ever use one? I hope not. Will any of my pupils need to use one? I really hope not.

[kamuzz]

Another vote for using prong collars when needed here. My dogs weigh more than me when walking them together and I like the feeling of security the prong gives me if needed. Like, for instance, we meet a pussy cat.

[huski]

I think it is up to the individual to decide their own truth. I also think it is fairly pointless to try and debate stuff like this as both sides just end up talking at the other. No one is going to change their mind. The most you can hope for is that respect for other people's opinions is achieved.

I agree, I think at the end of the day it boils down to what the owner and/or their trainer think is best (god forbid I use that word) for the dog in question. IMO and experienced trainer can tell what methods will work best (again, forgive my use of the word) for the dog they have in front of them. Why else pay a professional to help you if you aren't going to trust their judgement on what is best (I did it again!) for your dog?

[JulesP]

I agree, I think at the end of the day it boils down to what the owner and/or their trainer think is best (god forbid I use that word) for the dog in question. IMO and experienced trainer can tell what methods will work best (again, forgive my use of the word) for the dog they have in front of them. Why else pay a professional to help you if you aren't going to trust their judgement on what is best (I did it again!) for your dog?

Well I think you do need to find an instructor that uses methods you are comfortable with. So the person needs to do some research first. I wouldn't trust any professional until they had earnt that trust.

[huski]

I agree, I think at the end of the day it boils down to what the owner and/or their trainer think is best (god forbid I use that word) for the dog in question. IMO and experienced trainer can tell what methods will work best (again, forgive my use of the word) for the dog they have in front of them. Why else pay a professional to help you if you aren't going to trust their judgement on what is best (I did it again!) for your dog?

Well I think you do need to find an instructor that uses methods you are comfortable with. So the person needs to do some research first. I wouldn't trust any professional until they had earnt that trust.

Oh, finding a reputable trainer is another topic all together, but once you have selected someone you think is the best (objectively of course) IMO I don't see any point in paying for their services if you aren't going to be able to trust their judgement as to what they think will work well for your dog.

[Steve K9Pro]

K9Pro, on 07 August 2011 - 03:49 PM, said:

K9: So if the dogs that reacted with handler aggression had been wearing flat collars, what would be the reason MJ?

The dog that I knew before and after didn't react when wearing his collar or when put into a no pull harness. He didn't like it as he couldn't get what he wanted when he wanted but he didn't react aggressively. The other dog I have no idea if it would have reacted on a flat collar or not but he was quite happy to wear the check chain before and after the demo, but as I'm sure you know several hours is only a very brief look into that dogs life, maybe that dog would react on a flat collar, who knows.

Sorry MJ, this is a case of redirected aggression as the handler / trainer didn't control the stimulus level. It happens, we dont know how the dog feels at every moment.

In the first case, this dog would have reacted in the same manner each time the dog was placed under the same circumstance which was "He didn't like it as he couldn't get what he wanted when he wanted".

In the second I guess it should remain undocumented as you don't know the case history of the dog.

I had a dog here on Thursday that when I gave him prolonged eye contact (5 seconds or up),he would attack you. He was wearing a harness, he displayed this behavior regardless of what tool he was wearing, and in spite of the tool.

The trigger was eye contact, ban eyes? lol

The examples you give are good support for people seeking help, not whether a prong collar can cause harm, as I pointed out the above was a handler / trainer error, the handler / trainer just used the prong collar to make the error.

[OSoSwift]

Out of interest Corvus do you think your way of training is the best way and everything else is not????

I only ask as it seems that as far as you are concerned only your way is the right way.

I have never used a PP collar, never needed to. I have used Check chains in the past and I don't use them now, infact quite often I use nothing around my dogs neck at all. SO I have no particluar self interest in either the promotion of or non-banning of them.

However there are dogs out there that may not respond your style or type of training. If you came across one of those dogs, what would you do? How would you cope with a dog that just didn't respond to your type of training?

I train my dogs the way I do because it works. If and when it doesn't I will then seak a differnt way to go or answer. I do not want anyone telling me how I can train my dog. I want to be able to have the access if required to a tool that will help me.

Oh and interestingly with these type of emotional arguments some people would in fact prefer the dog to be dead than do what may be necessary. Our local vet will not under any circumstances de-bark a dog, even if the person will euthanase it. I asked the straight question - Would you prefer to see the dog dead than do debarking surgery, the answer was yes. SO using the argument if we ban PP collars then dogs may die because otehr methids may fail, there answer will still be it should be banned because they would rather see them die than use something that that person see's as cruel even if they are wrong.

[Steve K9Pro]

Well in Australia we killed 75000 dogs last year, wonder how many could have been saved without tool prejudice.

[Andisa]

A flat collar or choke collar will be friggen useless and far more dangerous than a PP collar.

How could it be far more dangerous if the PP collar is also causing a reaction?

Read my whole sentence..

No matter what experience the experienced handler has - not all dogs will react the same. Even the best and most experienced trainers will still get a dog that makes them think twice, they may even cop a bite or two. A tough dog requires tough handling to get through to them, lets also think about the safety of the handler too. A flat collar or choke collar will be friggen useless and far more dangerous than a PP collar.

I would like to think the handlers safety should be a high priority.

I suppose the alternative is to just kill the dog instead of using a collar that gets results .

Steve has answered your Q above.

Lets be grateful that there are still trainers out there like Steve who is prepared to put themselves on the line to save screwed up dogs - why do you want to take away their rights to use tools that help make their job easier and safer?

[RL1]

Megan, exactly how I feel. Shell exhausted all the "positive only" training methods and was told the dog should be PTS. Would the people who oppose the use of prongs rather the dog had been put down?

That sounds familiar. Think i heard that from several experts regarding my dog.

I support the use of prong collars, but only in extreme circumstances. I also would like to think there are restrictions on the sale of prongs so they don't end up for sale at the local pet shop or ebay.

[m-j]

Sorry MJ, this is a case of redirected aggression as the handler / trainer didn't control the stimulus level. It happens, we dont know how the dog feels at every moment.

In the first case, this dog would have reacted in the same manner each time the dog was placed under the same circumstance which was "He didn't like it as he couldn't get what he wanted when he wanted".

No it wasn't redirected aggression, the dog was not aggressing, just wanting to go for a walk, when the mild correction was applied the dog swung around and bit him. I believe the dog was worried. The dog was far less stimulated than I had seen on many occasions before and after (including aggression) that didn't end with the owner copping a bite after him giving a correction.

[lovemesideways]

Sorry MJ, this is a case of redirected aggression as the handler / trainer didn't control the stimulus level. It happens, we dont know how the dog feels at every moment.

In the first case, this dog would have reacted in the same manner each time the dog was placed under the same circumstance which was "He didn't like it as he couldn't get what he wanted when he wanted".

No it wasn't redirected aggression, the dog was not aggressing, just wanting to go for a walk, when the mild correction was applied the dog swung around and bit him. I believe the dog was worried. The dog was far less stimulated than I had seen on many occasions before and after (including aggression) that didn't end with the owner copping a bite after him giving a correction.

Unless I'm somehow reading this wrong, how is a dog biting someone NOT aggression?

Edited August 7, 2011 by lovemesideways

[Staranais]

Sorry MJ, this is a case of redirected aggression as the handler / trainer didn't control the stimulus level. It happens, we dont know how the dog feels at every moment.

In the first case, this dog would have reacted in the same manner each time the dog was placed under the same circumstance which was "He didn't like it as he couldn't get what he wanted when he wanted".

No it wasn't redirected aggression, the dog was not aggressing, just wanting to go for a walk, when the mild correction was applied the dog swung around and bit him. I believe the dog was worried. The dog was far less stimulated than I had seen on many occasions before and after (including aggression) that didn't end with the owner copping a bite after him giving a correction.

Unless I'm somehow reading this wrong, how is a dog biting someone NOT aggression?

I think m-j is saying it's not redirection (frustration or displacement) aggression.

I'd be interested though, if the dog reacted with a handler bite to a mild pinch collar correction, I'm thinking that it could potentially have reacted exactly the same way to something else surprising and unpleasant that happened? e.g. someone stepping on it's toe? Still doesn't make it sensible to use a pinch collar on such a dog, of course (at least not without teaching it what the correction means).

Edited August 7, 2011 by Staranais

[Steve K9Pro]

Ok to spell it out.

The prong collar applied pressure to the dog.

The dog became aggressive due to the collar correction.

Instead of becoming aggressive toward the collar that supplied the pressure, the dog REDIRECTED that aggression toward the handler.

[m-j]

Steve has answered your Q above.

Lets be grateful that there are still trainers out there like Steve who is prepared to put themselves on the line to save screwed up dogs - why do you want to take away their rights to use tools that help make their job easier and safer?

He did I can't see how a prong collar is going to stop a dog from getting to you if the dog is coming at you any better than any other tool, particularly if the use of the tool is the catalyst for the aggression, especially a "tough dog".

As I said before I don't think I am able to make that judgement, so I'm not saying they should or shouldn't be banned but to say they can't cause harm is not true, as most agree like with many other things.

[stormie]

Steve has answered your Q above.

Lets be grateful that there are still trainers out there like Steve who is prepared to put themselves on the line to save screwed up dogs - why do you want to take away their rights to use tools that help make their job easier and safer?

He did I can't see how a prong collar is going to stop a dog from getting to you if the dog is coming at you any better than any other tool, particularly if the use of the tool is the catalyst for the aggression, especially a "tough dog".

As I said before I don't think I am able to make that judgement, so I'm not saying they should or shouldn't be banned but to say they can't cause harm is not true, as most agree like with many other things.

Are you able to explain what harm they can cause the dog?

[Staranais]

Has anyone said a prong collar can't cause harm (genuine question)? I certainly think they could cause harm, e.g. if the handler really cranked and yanked on them, especially if they'd fit it incorrectly too.

But, I think a more relevant question is, can they cause more harm than any of the other legal correction collars? I'm not sure about that. I'd hate to see the result of a head collar misfitted then really yanked and cranked, for example. Even a flat collar could cause harm in that situation.

[m-j]

Ok to spell it out.

The prong collar applied pressure to the dog.

The dog became aggressive due to the collar correction.

Instead of becoming aggressive toward the collar that supplied the pressure, the dog REDIRECTED that aggression toward the handler.

Sorry, yes you are right, which is why I don't think it is correct to say they can't cause harm, the owner needs to be safe too.

[Steve K9Pro]

It's a TRAINER error lol. Ban trainers lol

[corvus]

I haven't missed your point Corvus. My point is - how do we determine anything we do in dog training is the 'right' thing to do with our dogs? When you choose a method to use with your dogs how do you make that decision? Is it ever anything you can objectively judge?

I think it is up to the individual to decide their own truth. I also think it is fairly pointless to try and debate stuff like this as both sides just end up talking at the other. No one is going to change their mind. The most you can hope for is that respect for other people's opinions is achieved.

Right, I agree. It's utterly pointless, particularly in this context. But I don't think the debate should be about training methods anyway. I'm not the only one that has said that.