Help Stop The Hysteria

[Steve K9Pro]

When it doesn't work the dog pays.

[Nekhbet]

When it doesn't work the dog pays.

yes but when you use self justified warm and fuzzy rubbish you can have a self conceited feeling of 'trying everything nice and hence its the dogs fault'

[~*Shell*~]

And so, when you weigh the usefulness of the prong collar up against the potential for damage, a ban makes perfect sense.

If it is again the people using the tool who are at fault, rather than the tool itself, why not ban head collars? I have seen many dogs suffering injuries on them. I have seen dogs suffer injuries on flat collars, harnesses and martingales. Why not ban them too.

Instead of a ban, why not support regulation?

[OSoSwift]

A few years ago on this forum K9 force was explaining to people how to import prong collars in bits and fit them together. I was horrified for a multitude of reasons.

I feel like I remember a thread like that. Was it this one: http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/139457-are-prong-colars-illegal-to-sell-in-nsw/page__p__2787547__hl__%2Bimport+%2Bprong+%2Bcollars__fromsearch__1#entry2787547

No two ways to interpret that...

There are always going to be conflicts in interest between welfare and control/safety, I think. Take horse bits, for example.

K9: It is a Federal offence if you import restricted goods without a permit, even in parts.

ANd this was K9's response. Don't see him telling anyone how to illegaly import PP collars??? DO you??

[bianca.a]

Well I have a prong and I have to say when I tried it on my own arm it didn't hurt me. (I was taught by a trainer how to use and fit it). I just cannot see what all the fuss is about, it is a tool. Anything can be used in an inproper way. Why the hell don't they enforce a ban on people leaving their dogs tied up all day? Or never walking/exercising them? Common sense is what I think is lacking, I will not allow some person who has probably never seen a prong collar used to tell me that I cannot use one.

And if it was so cruel then why does my dog go berko with excitement when she see's it? Because she knows she is going for walkies!!!! Yipee!

[Kavik]

Fuzzy

Prong collars are easier to use correctly than a check chain. A check chain requires a lot more technique to use properly and effectively than a prong (which has an action like a martingale).

[RallyValley]

Curious if anyone has tried a prong on thier neck?

Not a tool I would use personally but not something that needs to be banned.

[~*Shell*~]

Curious if anyone has tried a prong on thier neck?

I have. And every limb I could fit it over too. On my neck, I didn't even get a red mark. I got a mark on the top of my arm but that's because it was too loose and slid over my skin as I pulled it around (hard) so the prongs were on the soft part of my arm. Once I took some links out and fitted it properly to myself, that stopped.

The check chain i put on my arm caused a bruise, and while admittedly, I do bruise easily, i will now never put one on my dog.

Edited August 6, 2011 by ~*Shell*~

[TerraNik]

I was playing with ~Shell~'s prong collar last night... I had it on my arm, my wrist, my thigh, my calf... I would've tried it on my neck but my head was too big

There was no pain, despite me yanking on it as hard as I could. I've done the same with a check chain in the past (which hurt like all buggery!) and hands down I would happily go for the prong collar every time.

[Mervin]

Well, I see this thread has nipped the hysteria in the bud.

[GoldenGirl85]

Curious if anyone has tried a prong on thier neck?

I have. And every limb I could fit it over too. On my neck, I didn't even get a red mark. I got a mark on the top of my arm but that's because it was too loose and slid over my skin as I pulled it around (hard) so the prongs were on the soft part of my arm. Once I took some links out and fitted it properly to myself, that stopped.

The check chain i put on my arm caused a bruise, and while admittedly, I do bruise easily, i will now never put one on my dog.

So...what does it feel like?

I took a look at the 'other' fb page on this subject...and of course there is all these people saying about how cruel it was, and that the owners should put it on their own neck 'to see how much they like it' lol

[Staranais]

Get one, feel one, use one, then say yes or no. Apart from that it's just more BS tying my hands since me and a few other trainers are willing to use whatever tools we can to help YOUR dogs live and become productive members of society.

Very well said.

I would like anyone who supports a ban of pinch collars to show evidence that a pinch collar is more likely to cause injury, or be more easily abused, than the other legal correction collars.

If you can't, then you're in essence proposing to tie the hands of legitimate trainers, and your fellow dog owners, because you personally "just don't like the look of them".

Seems to me pretty much the same argument as we saw with BSL. One side saying "but there's no evidence that bull breeds are dangerous when raised by responsible owners", the other side saying "we don't need to wait for evidence, anyone can see bull breeds are nasty! Ban them!" And look who won.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Staranais

[huski]

Well, I see this thread has nipped the hysteria in the bud.

Do you actually have anything to add, Mervin? Or just more shit stirring?

[corvus]

Who's to say banning them would even have an impact? It's not like they are easy to get now. According to one of Pauline Bennett's studies, almost 10% of dog training facilities around Melbourne use them anyway, despite the ban in Victoria. Obviously didn't stop Nekhbet.

[Nekhbet]

I do travel interstate corvus

[WoofnHoof]

What should we do instead? I don't think we should do nothing. I guess i just feel that the focus on the prong collar ignores some of the more broad issues- education and training for all dog owners regardless of tool. Because i think we can all agree that its handlers that cause the problems, not tools.

Totally agree with this.

I for one am in favour of mandatory training for anyone who owns an animal, basic animal care should be part of the school cirriculum IMO. Of course then you get the arguments about what sort of training etc etc because no one will ever agree about mandatory anything because of their right to own an animal and do what they want with it. But if there were a mandatory training and accreditation system in place then these smaller issues of which equipment is more/less humane can be addressed within that system and are less likely to be open to abuse. I don't think the general public should be given free rein with equipment or animals for that matter, I think people should be able to show they can provide a good basic standard of care before having an animal and be able to show they know and understand the correct application of any training device before being allowed to use it. You can't drive a car without a license and demonstrated knowledge of the basic road rules because of the potential to do harm to yourself and others with it, the same principles should apply to animal ownership.

edited to add a word

Edited August 6, 2011 by WoofnHoof

[corvus]

What is wrong with using a prong collar as a first resort if it is in fact the best tool for the dog and handler in question?

You know that reasoning is flawed, don't you? There is no possible way to judge that objectively.

To me, this is part of the problem. It's impossible to use any one example to base a decision on because there are too many variables. It's impossible to use a collection of examples to base a decision on because there are too many variables. Seriously, if you want to present a good argument that's going to convince anyone sitting on the fence or on the other side, you have to leave the individual examples and emotive roundabout arguments behind and stick to facts. As far as I'm aware the only established facts about prongs is that they are associated with behaviour indicative of distress and that they are effective correction devices.

It would cost next to nothing to do a survey of dog owners and establish how many people actually use prong collars and how often. I would be surprised if the numbers suggested they were in wide use. That alone is a reasonable argument for not banning them IMO. Much more reasonable than "they save lives" and "they are sometimes the best tool".

Banning prongs is going to lead to the banning of all control tools and therefore the banning of pet dogs?? Can anyone spell "hysteria"?

[Are You Serious Jo]

Maybe the prong collar should be named the fluffy ducking approach collar because it's clear to see that the people who are violently opposed to it don't have a clue and just react. I don't have a need for it on my dogs but have seen it in action and it's a great tool for certain dogs that are destined to be PTS. Talk about ignorance dictating policy yet again

Corvus, I think you should really apologise to K9 BTW.

[trojka]

Curious if anyone has tried a prong on thier neck?

I have. And every limb I could fit it over too. On my neck, I didn't even get a red mark. I got a mark on the top of my arm but that's because it was too loose and slid over my skin as I pulled it around (hard) so the prongs were on the soft part of my arm. Once I took some links out and fitted it properly to myself, that stopped.

The check chain i put on my arm caused a bruise, and while admittedly, I do bruise easily, i will now never put one on my dog.

I have too, and a certain member of this forum even has photographic evidence. ;)

Same thing as when I tried it on my arm and my leg. Definitely not what I call painful, even though I think it's fair to say my neck is probably a little more sensitive than my dog's, with his fur and extra skin.

What is wrong with using a prong collar as a first resort if it is in fact the best tool for the dog and handler in question?

You know that reasoning is flawed, don't you? There is no possible way to judge that objectively.

To me, this is part of the problem. It's impossible to use any one example to base a decision on because there are too many variables. It's impossible to use a collection of examples to base a decision on because there are too many variables. Seriously, if you want to present a good argument that's going to convince anyone sitting on the fence or on the other side, you have to leave the individual examples and emotive roundabout arguments behind and stick to facts. As far as I'm aware the only established facts about prongs is that they are associated with behaviour indicative of distress and that they are effective correction devices.

It would cost next to nothing to do a survey of dog owners and establish how many people actually use prong collars and how often. I would be surprised if the numbers suggested they were in wide use. That alone is a reasonable argument for not banning them IMO. Much more reasonable than "they save lives" and "they are sometimes the best tool".

Banning prongs is going to lead to the banning of all control tools and therefore the banning of pet dogs?? Can anyone spell "hysteria"?

I can't see the other side coming up with any facts. To me, Zero's success story and those of many others, including my own dog, are facts. Another fact is that many of us have a tried a prong on ourselves, whether that be an arm, leg or neck. And I assume that another fact is that the naysayers have never done so or even seen a prong collar in real life, let alone being used. I invite anyone to come and try it out. :D

[FionaC]

I was playing with ~Shell~'s prong collar last night... I had it on my arm, my wrist, my thigh, my calf... I would've tried it on my neck but my head was too big

There was no pain, despite me yanking on it as hard as I could. I've done the same with a check chain in the past (which hurt like all buggery!) and hands down I would happily go for the prong collar every time.

We have done the same thing before trying the prong, we tested the prong on ourselves before ever fitting it to Morty and neither of us were in any pain from our test on ourselves - it was also done under the supervision and guidence of a trainer and we would do it again in a heartbeat ...