Staranais Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Oh poor dog! Nasty. That's also really interesting though, as it's the first case of a serious injury caused by a head collar I've ever heard of. Did someone report it to the halter manufacturers? I hope so. Poor dog I've seen eye ulcerations (but not to the extent of losing the eye) and a lot of wounds/skin infections on the muzzle due to the rubbing etc. These are mainly due to ill-fitting head collars or the owners/trainer not using them properly: not desensitizing, using them to jerk back lunging dogs etc. Ouch. I've seen rubbed noses from head collars, but I haven't seen eye ulcers from them. Didn't even know such a thing was possible. How horrible. Hmmm, maybe we should ban headcollars? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Flying Furball Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Don't support them at all You guys don't have anything better to do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted August 6, 2011 Author Share Posted August 6, 2011 Yes. Found this old topic about the DOLer whose dog was being trained by her and the methods that were in contention. Unfortunately a number of other threads on the subject were deleted, you will no doubt see why if you read this one. OMG! I remember that Great memory Haven! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 (edited) Apologies for not reading the entire thread, but I wonder if this is the same Melissa Bruce that once caused a stir as the trainer of a DOLers dog as a result of her ridiculous and harsh methods that resulted in her and the owners getting bitten repeatedly, such as pushing the dog down the stairs, hitting it with the door if it tried to rush through the doorway and using forced submission techniques? Anyone else remember? I vaguely remember that, Haven. Once again, though, I am astounded at the quality of your excellent memory. I think I need to take whatever pills you might be taking, lol. 'Snap' Huski. Edited August 6, 2011 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted August 6, 2011 Author Share Posted August 6, 2011 Don't support them at all You guys don't have anything better to do... Nothing better to do than fight for our right to choose what training methods and tools we use on our dogs? Or fight for the right to use a tool that has prevented dogs from being PTS? How about the plain and simple fact that IMO it's incredibly concerning that the government would ban a tool that has no proof or evidence of causing harm or injury to dogs? Then no, I guess I don't have anything better to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yesmaam Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 (edited) Don't support them at all You guys don't have anything better to do... I suppose you support the common choker collar instead? A device designed to STRANGLE the dog as it constricts around its neck, causing it to cut off the air so your dog can't breathe resulting in a slow and painful death if not released............... Hey, this would make a great story. We could liken it to when Hitler hung his generals with piano wire..........lol Edited August 6, 2011 by Yesmaam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Don't support them at all You guys don't have anything better to do... Sorry, but I just think that was really nasty. I appreciate you don't like the collar and you're entitled to your own opinion, but it's not fair to put people down like that for trying to fight for something they believe in. It's not different to people speaking out against Puppy Farms and the likes - if people don't say anything, they'll never be heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 (edited) for all the naysayers ... I had a dog today that a prong made only a slight difference to him. His focus in on children and launching at them. Am I a lazy trainer for using one? Check chain and all manner of all other things mean nothing to this dog at all. What is your wisdom then? ETA Euth is neither warranted nor an option. Edited August 6, 2011 by Nekhbet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzy82 Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 I have been undecided on this issue for the last few days. My immediate thought was 'yep, ban them', but then I thought that they are actually a useful tool for gaining control of very large, reactive/aggressive dogs while training them, as long as they are used correctly and as a last resort. So I then thought maybe I don't support a ban after all. But after thinking about it for several days, I have come to the conclusion that I do support a ban. Sweden has been mentioned as another country that has banned prong collars. What hasn't been mentioned is that in Sweden it is also illegal to crate a dog at home while you are out of the house. This isn't because crates are evil, but because a lot of people were overusing the crates and the dogs were suffering because of it. When you look at banning something, you have to weigh the usefulness up against the damage potential. And the Swedish government deemed the damage potential of crates higher than the usefulness, and so they were banned. The same thing applies to prong collars. Yes, they CAN be a useful tool, when used correctly. However, most people will not use them correctly, or use them too much, or use them as a first resort. How many people will be using the prong collar as a quick and permanent fix, rather than as a temporary training tool? 90%? While 10% might use them correctly and temporary. Should we sacrifice the 90% of dogs where the prong collar is used incorrectly and possibly damaging both physically and mentally to the dogs, for the sake of giving the 10% this training tool? Also, how many dogs are really so large and aggressive that NO other tool can be used to control them? I am guessing not many. And so, when you weigh the usefulness of the prong collar up against the potential for damage, a ban makes perfect sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted August 6, 2011 Author Share Posted August 6, 2011 (edited) However, most people will not use them correctly Fuzzy, I am interested in how you can to the conclusion that most people won't use prong collars correctly? How did you come to this conclusion especially considering there are many more corrective training devices i.e. check chains and head collars that are far more readily available and just as likely as a prong collar to be used incorrectly? (perhaps more so, considering how widely available they are). or use them too much, or use them as a first resort. What is wrong with using a prong collar as a first resort if it is in fact the best tool for the dog and handler in question? Wouldn't it be best to use the tool most suited to their situation rather than try a range of other tools that won't be as suitable or effective? How many people will be using the prong collar as a quick and permanent fix, rather than as a temporary training tool? 90%? While 10% might use them correctly and temporary. Should we sacrifice the 90% of dogs where the prong collar is used incorrectly and possibly damaging both physically and mentally to the dogs, for the sake of giving the 10% this training tool? Also, how many dogs are really so large and aggressive that NO other tool can be used to control them? I am guessing not many. Take the word prong collar in the above paragraph and replace it with the name of any other corrective collar and you could apply it to any training tool out there. As Staranise said earlier, where is the evidence that prong collars are significantly more open to abuse or less safe than other corrective tools? How can we judge how many people use prong collars correctly or incorrectly? Wouldn't the simple fact they are already less readily available than a range of other corrective tools lessen the chance that they will be used incorrectly in comparison to more readily available tools? And where did you get the idea that 90% of people who use prong collars wouldn't be using them properly? And so, when you weigh the usefulness of the prong collar up against the potential for damage, a ban makes perfect sense. I am yet to see any evidence that prong collars have more potential for damage than any other corrective tool available on the market. So no, I don't think a ban makes sense at all. Edited August 6, 2011 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 (edited) The thing is though, it's not the tool that's the problem. It's the users who abuse them. It's like banning all forms of junk food to prevent obesity. It's just not the answer, because there will be people who will just eat more and more of the other things and still put on weight. I genuinely don't see how removing the tools is going to fix the problem. It won't. You'll still end up with difficult dogs because there will always be people who don't put the time and effort in, abused pups, etc etc. Except now we won't have the means to help them and the only option will be pts. Taking away weapons doesn't make for a more peaceful society. There will still be evil people. It comes down to educating people on how to start out correctly, to minimise the behavioural problems in the first place. And of course there will still be dogs who are just born that little bit difficult to others and in those instances tools should be available to ensure we can train them. Edited August 6, 2011 by stormie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted August 6, 2011 Author Share Posted August 6, 2011 The thing is though, it's not the tool that's the problem. It's the users who abuse them. It's like banning all forms of junk food to prevent obesity. It's just not the answer, because there will be people who will just eat more and more of the other things and still put on weight. I genuinely don't see how removing the tools is going to fix the problem. It won't. You'll still end up with difficult dogs because there will always be people who don't put the time and effort in, abused pups, etc etc. Except now we won't have the means to help them and the only option will be pts. And if we can ban a tool like a prong collar that has no evidence of causing harm or proof that it has a higher risk of injury or misuse than other corrective tools available, we are on a very slippery slope. What will be next? Check chains? E-collars? Martingales? Everything except flat collars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormie Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 The thing is though, it's not the tool that's the problem. It's the users who abuse them. It's like banning all forms of junk food to prevent obesity. It's just not the answer, because there will be people who will just eat more and more of the other things and still put on weight. I genuinely don't see how removing the tools is going to fix the problem. It won't. You'll still end up with difficult dogs because there will always be people who don't put the time and effort in, abused pups, etc etc. Except now we won't have the means to help them and the only option will be pts. And if we can ban a tool like a prong collar that has no evidence of causing harm or proof that it has a higher risk of injury or misuse than other corrective tools available, we are on a very slippery slope. What will be next? Check chains? E-collars? Martingales? Everything except flat collars? Exactly. And then suddenly we will have no means to control dogs at all and then what do you know, dog ownership will be banned... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 The same thing applies to prong collars. Yes, they CAN be a useful tool, when used correctly. However, most people will not use them correctly, or use them too much, or use them as a first resort. How many people will be using the prong collar as a quick and permanent fix, rather than as a temporary training tool? 90%? While 10% might use them correctly and temporary. Should we sacrifice the 90% of dogs where the prong collar is used incorrectly and possibly damaging both physically and mentally to the dogs, for the sake of giving the 10% this training tool? Also, how many dogs are really so large and aggressive that NO other tool can be used to control them? I am guessing not many. Call me arrogent. I'm not bothering with this thread anymore as my standpoint is clear. If you have not seen one used or been shown one in use on various situations then you dont have an educated enough opinion on one to say yay or nay. You're up there with all the law makers who just read emotive BS. Get one, feel one, use one, then say yes or no. Apart from that it's just more BS tying my hands since me and a few other trainers are willing to use whatever tools we can to help YOUR dogs live and become productive members of society. Fuzzy honestly you're so biased it's not funny. You cant tell me you actually made a proper decision about them. Considering I have seen dogs throw themselves into their owners to have a prong collar put on them so they can go have some fun and go walking etc you cant tell me they need to be banned. Ban morons ... oh wait we harbour those people under wrist slaps and human rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RottnBullies Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 How many people will be using the prong collar as a quick and permanent fix, rather than as a temporary training tool? 90%? While 10% might use them correctly and temporary. Should we sacrifice the 90% of dogs where the prong collar is used incorrectly and possibly damaging both physically and mentally to the dogs, for the sake of giving the 10% this training tool? Also, how many dogs are really so large and aggressive that NO other tool can be used to control them? I am guessing not many. And so, when you weigh the usefulness of the prong collar up against the potential for damage, a ban makes perfect sense. There are no exact estimates to what you're asking, so why are you plucking up % from thin air except to favor your argument to ban Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 My prong hasn't seen the light of day for 5ish years, but I would appreciate the right to use it in the future, if need be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmolo Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 What should we do instead? I don't think we should do nothing. I guess i just feel that the focus on the prong collar ignores some of the more broad issues- education and training for all dog owners regardless of tool. Because i think we can all agree that its handlers that cause the problems, not tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted August 6, 2011 Author Share Posted August 6, 2011 What should we do instead? I don't think we should do nothing. I guess i just feel that the focus on the prong collar ignores some of the more broad issues- education and training for all dog owners regardless of tool. Because i think we can all agree that its handlers that cause the problems, not tools. Yep I totally agree, I think that is what happens whenever the 'banning' argument comes up, the actual issues get lost in what is ultimately the smaller picture. I've been thinking a lot about this over the last few days and have got a couple of ideas to work on that will hopefully evolve into something a bit more practical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WreckitWhippet Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Ban the prong and there will still be problem dogs and one less tool available to trainers and owners, to help overcome them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve K9Pro Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 I Often see people come here with aggression issues and them receive advice of "buy this book and ...", honestly DONT! This is a lot more dangerous than any tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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