Help Stop The Hysteria

[~*Shell*~]

How many people who are opposedto them have actually used one on their dog or on themselves?

or own a dog that would benefit from one?

I have often been berated and belittled on this forum for having used a prong collar on my dog but until those people have had a dog like mine was, i refuse to let it get to me. I have never seen a single one of the nay-sayers own a dog who was even a 10th as aggressive as Zero. If people follow k9 pro like a cult, consider me the temple priestess. He was the ONLY person I went to see who taught me how to get results with my dog and after having had 3 well respected (and 1 not-so-respected) professionals tell me that my dog couldn't be fixed and that I should have him PTS, i wish i had put a prong collar (teamed with the fantastic rehabilitation program developed by k9 pro) on him sooner. Yes, they are not for the normal dog, but if Zero and I had not had access to them, Z would still be sitting in my backyard, scared out of his mind instead of being the wonderful, loving and gorgeous dog that he is now.

The simple fact is that I tried purely positive methods with my dog for 18 months and got NOWHERE. He could do all the obedience work under the sun in the backyard but the second i opened the gate, he would not take food, wasn't interested in toys and was in such state of over-arousal that nothing i could do would interest him. I have seen him try to kill his own shadow, react to even a chihuahua in someone's arms (that i didn't even notice!) with explosive aggression and had 3 of my fingers dislocated (one of them at both joints) when he pulled me through a gate to get to another dog, not to mention the injuries from the multiple times I was pulled off my feet. Even my extremely strong cousin had difficulties holding him back.

I tried head collars (and for the record, won't ever again after seeing the damage it did to his neck!), martingales and no-pull harnesses and saw no positive results - i often see people who come to our obedience club with these tools whose dogs spend the rest of their life wearing it because they don't understand that it's a training tool, not a fix-it. Zero only had to wear the prong collar for 12 weeks and went from being a dog who couldn't even think he saw another dog without reacting with extreme aggression to a dog who could attend a group obedience class without so much as a growl. It has now been in my cupboard gathering dust for over 2 years.

Do i believe they're for the average pet owner? No. I would be happy to see them regulated so that you had to consult with a behaviourist to be allowed access to one but banning them will only stop people from using them on the dogs that truely need them, like Zero. A lot of people on this thread had met Zero in the fur - is he afraid of me? No, in fact, quite the opposite. Is he shut down and oppressed? No, again, quite the opposite. The use of the prong collar allowed him to see that there were other things in the world and so he didn't have to worry about the things that frightened him so much. He now has a lot more freedom.

If people want to debate on the matter, bring it on. I can show you a dog where every other method failed. I can show you a dog who even well-respected professionals gave up on. I can show you a dog who may have ended up being PTS without one. And i can show you a dog who has had what Cesar Milan would call "red zone aggression" who has been rehabilitated to the point where he was able to become an accredited therapy dog.

[Brennan's Mum]

How many people who are opposedto them have actually used one on their dog or on themselves?

or own a dog that would benefit from one?

I have often been berated and belittled on this forum for having used a prong collar on my dog but until those people have had a dog like mine was, i refuse to let it get to me. I have never seen a single one of the nay-sayers own a dog who was even a 10th as aggressive as Zero. If people follow k9 pro like a cult, consider me the temple priestess. He was the ONLY person I went to see who taught me how to get results with my dog and after having had 3 well respected (and 1 not-so-respected) professionals tell me that my dog couldn't be fixed and that I should have him PTS, i wish i had put a prong collar (teamed with the fantastic rehabilitation program developed by k9 pro) on him sooner. Yes, they are not for the normal dog, but if Zero and I had not had access to them, Z would still be sitting in my backyard, scared out of his mind instead of being the wonderful, loving and gorgeous dog that he is now.

The simple fact is that I tried purely positive methods with my dog for 18 months and got NOWHERE. He could do all the obedience work under the sun in the backyard but the second i opened the gate, he would not take food, wasn't interested in toys and was in such state of over-arousal that nothing i could do would interest him. I have seen him try to kill his own shadow, react to even a chihuahua in someone's arms (that i didn't even notice!) with explosive aggression and had 3 of my fingers dislocated (one of them at both joints) when he pulled me through a gate to get to another dog, not to mention the injuries from the multiple times I was pulled off my feet. Even my extremely strong cousin had difficulties holding him back.

I tried head collars (and for the record, won't ever again after seeing the damage it did to his neck!), martingales and no-pull harnesses and saw no positive results - i often see people who come to our obedience club with these tools whose dogs spend the rest of their life wearing it because they don't understand that it's a training tool, not a fix-it. Zero only had to wear the prong collar for 12 weeks and went from being a dog who couldn't even think he saw another dog without reacting with extreme aggression to a dog who could attend a group obedience class without so much as a growl. It has now been in my cupboard gathering dust for over 2 years.

Do i believe they're for the average pet owner? No. I would be happy to see them regulated so that you had to consult with a behaviourist to be allowed access to one but banning them will only stop people from using them on the dogs that truely need them, like Zero. A lot of people on this thread had met Zero in the fur - is he afraid of me? No, in fact, quite the opposite. Is he shut down and oppressed? No, again, quite the opposite. The use of the prong collar allowed him to see that there were other things in the world and so he didn't have to worry about the things that frightened him so much. He now has a lot more freedom.

If people want to debate on the matter, bring it on. I can show you a dog where every other method failed. I can show you a dog who even well-respected professionals gave up on. I can show you a dog who may have ended up being PTS without one. And i can show you a dog who has had what Cesar Milan would call "red zone aggression" who has been rehabilitated to the point where he was able to become an accredited therapy dog.

What Shell has done with Zero is nothing short of amazing ( and no I am not one of the people who has met her and Z).

[Staranais]

1 eyeball popped out caused by a head collar that was fitted and used incorrectly.

Wow, could you provide some details on that? How was the collar fitted? Do you have photos? Poor dog.

As for the rest, I think that this subject has nothing to do with whether anyone, personally, wants to use a pinch collar or not.

IMO the only reasonable question is, is the pinch collar significantly more open to abuse or less safe than the other legal correction tools out there? Because if the pinch collar really is significantly less safe or easier to abuse than other legal correction tools, then maybe we should regulate them to a higher standard. If they aren't more dangerous, then banning them is at best going to pointlessly annoy dog trainers, and at worse is going to harm dogs (because if a pinch collar is safer than a check chain, for example, how does it help dogs if lots of the people who use a pinch collar now start to use a check chain instead?)

My own personal experience is that the pinch collar is kinder and safer than a check chain, and on some dogs is less aversive than a head collar. I have never personally seen significant injuries caused by use of a pinch collar, martingale collar or a head collar, but check chains can definitely cause damage.

If anyone can provide any evidence that I'm wrong, that pinch collars are significantly more likely to be abused or cause injuries than a check chain, I'll re-think my opinion. However, from what I've seen, I find that unlikely.

Edited August 6, 2011 by Staranais

[Steve K9Pro]

Thank you Shell.

I had a think about this thread for a few minutes and wanted to put some things in perspective.

Rusky if I have said anything in the past that was out of line to you, I apologize, like I said nothing personal. I just knew I hadn't said what you said as I a firm believer of learn don't guess.

I am going to take the Cult comment as a compliment, yes I do have a lot of very loyal clients that support me in any way they can, mostly by referral. I would have to put that down to the service I have tried to give, which is my all.

Someone mentioned Zero to me the other day saying Shell must have practically lived here to get Zero so good.

To tell my version of the story, Shell was not always a Cult member lol... Yes recently she has become our official photographer because she takes the nicest shots, she is a nice girl and looks amazing in Camo lol.

I met up with Shell at the MDBA awards that just past and I had to tell her that after working with her, I wouldn't have known her if I bumped into her on the street. This happened because I guess we both focused pretty hard on Zero.

I cant and wont take credit for his rehabilitation, I do remember telling her that he would need a lot of work, she said "I don't care how long it takes, how much it costs".

I only saw Zero three times and I read a lot of email updates.

He came to an aggressive dog workshop about 8 weeks after I first met him, he was totally non reactive and looking very happy and there was trust in his eyes. People kept asking me why he was there, and another Border I had worked with too, Dave. I told them he was aggressive not three months ago, people giggled at me as I am always joking around, but I said I am telling you true here. They would not or could not believe it.

I have not seen him must be 2 years maybe until he came up for the Sydney workshop just a couple of weeks ago. He remembered me very well and I did him. He has an amazing look in his eyes now that when he looks at you, its impossible not to smile back (and give him a treat or 9).

The prong collar was a tool that enabled Shell to move forward, like she said after about 12 weeks it was off and has never been on again. Could we have done it without a prong collar? Yes probably, but could I have convinced her she could? if the answer is no then a dog that I truly believe is one of the most engaging dogs I have ever met may not be here. I believe Zero has changed Shells life and they are such a great inseparable couple.

It is insane to remove this option from trainers who can use them and help others.

If that means restriction, no problems with me.

My clients are very important to me, I am in their cult...

[JulesP]

I've already said I wouldn't use a prong collar (and no I am not going to debate that) but I have also been to a K9Pro seminar and tried to get a training session on another occasion. I always suggest K9Pro to NSW friends that are having dog problems. So not being a fan of prong collars does not mean that you can't be a fan of K9Pro.

[Steve K9Pro]

Thanks Jules that's a good point, we don't hand them out like lollies. None of my training in drive programs have any physical corrections.

[JulesP]

Thanks Jules that's a good point, we don't hand them out like lollies. None of my training in drive programs have any physical corrections.

It was a very positive experience ;)

[BC4ME]

1 eyeball popped out caused by a head collar that was fitted and used incorrectly.

Wow, could you provide some details on that? How was the collar fitted? Do you have photos? Poor dog.

As for the rest, I think that this subject has nothing to do with whether anyone, personally, wants to use a pinch collar or not.

IMO the only reasonable question is, is the pinch collar significantly more open to abuse or less safe than the other legal correction tools out there? Because if the pinch collar really is significantly less safe or easier to abuse than other legal correction tools, then maybe we should regulate them to a higher standard. If they aren't more dangerous, then banning them is at best going to pointlessly annoy dog trainers, and at worse is going to harm dogs (because if a pinch collar is safer than a check chain, for example, how does it help dogs if lots of the people who use a pinch collar now start to use a check chain instead?)

My own personal experience is that the pinch collar is kinder and safer than a check chain, and on some dogs is less aversive than a head collar. I have never personally seen significant injuries caused by use of a pinch collar, martingale collar or a head collar, but check chains can definitely cause damage.

If anyone can provide any evidence that I'm wrong, that pinch collars are significantly more likely to be abused or cause injuries than a check chain, I'll re-think my opinion. However, from what I've seen, I find that unlikely.

Sorry don't have pics (it was quite a few years ago) but it was a small dog with very big bulgy eyes they had a halti on the dog wich was too big the dog pulled one way the owner pulled the other and the strap that comes across the nose slipped up and put pressure on the bottom of the eye and out popped the eyeball.

Sadly the dog lost it's eye. It was very lucky though at one stage the owner was talking about euthanaising the animal due to the cost of surgery.

I'll never forget the look on that dogs face as it was one of the first serious eye injuries I had ever seen.

Edited August 6, 2011 by BC4ME

[ness]

I have to agree with JulesP. Prong collars aren't something I would consider using and I was seriously skeptical about K9Pro in a big way but K9Pro always had an excellent answer to everything I had to question right from day 1 and as always the proof is in the results and results I certainly got.

[haven]

Apologies for not reading the entire thread, but I wonder if this is the same Melissa Bruce that once caused a stir as the trainer of a DOLers dog as a result of her ridiculous and harsh methods that resulted in her and the owners getting bitten repeatedly, such as pushing the dog down the stairs, hitting it with the door if it tried to rush through the doorway and using forced submission techniques?

Anyone else remember?

[trinabean]

Edit. Trying to tidy up.

Edited August 6, 2011 by trinabean

[GoldenGirl85]

I gotta ask...what is with the camo?

Don't get me started on the camo :rolleyes: :laugh:

Awww come on! I keep seeing all these camo references on fb too...and I just don't get it!!!

[aussielover]

Apologies for not reading the entire thread, but I wonder if this is the same Melissa Bruce that once caused a stir as the trainer of a DOLers dog as a result of her ridiculous and harsh methods that resulted in her and the owners getting bitten repeatedly, such as pushing the dog down the stairs, hitting it with the door if it tried to rush through the doorway and using forced submission techniques?

Anyone else remember?

Dont remember that But I haven't been around for that long...

She seems more like a purely positivie trainer to me...

[haven]

Apologies for not reading the entire thread, but I wonder if this is the same Melissa Bruce that once caused a stir as the trainer of a DOLers dog as a result of her ridiculous and harsh methods that resulted in her and the owners getting bitten repeatedly, such as pushing the dog down the stairs, hitting it with the door if it tried to rush through the doorway and using forced submission techniques?

Anyone else remember?

Dont remember that But I haven't been around for that long...

She seems more like a purely positivie trainer to me...

She was very against prongs even then, referring to them as torture collars and such. There were a number of threads about the DOLers dog, and the trainer was misrepresented somewhat by them, but the techniques I mentioned above were not denied as I recall. She had a business called Clever Paws and was quite young, as she looks in the picture, would not respond when queried on her qualifications IIRC.

ETA it is her, I just googled Clever Paws and the dog, Storm, pictured with her in the magazine article is on the website.

Edited August 6, 2011 by haven

[BJean]

Apologies for not reading the entire thread, but I wonder if this is the same Melissa Bruce that once caused a stir as the trainer of a DOLers dog as a result of her ridiculous and harsh methods that resulted in her and the owners getting bitten repeatedly, such as pushing the dog down the stairs, hitting it with the door if it tried to rush through the doorway and using forced submission techniques?

Anyone else remember?

Dont remember that But I haven't been around for that long...

She seems more like a purely positivie trainer to me...

She was very against prongs even then, referring to them as torture collars and such. There were a number of threads about the DOLers dog, and the trainer was misrepresented somewhat by them, but the techniques I mentioned above were not denied as I recall. She had a business called Clever Paws and was quite young, as she looks in the picture, would not respond when queried on her qualifications IIRC.

ooh Clever Paws is owned by Melissa Bruce in QLD -

are these the same people Haven?

http://www.cleverpaws.com.au/Meet%20Melissa.html

[~*Shell*~]

I gotta ask...what is with the camo?

Don't get me started on the camo :rolleyes: :laugh:

Awww come on! I keep seeing all these camo references on fb too...and I just don't get it!!!

Lol - K9Pro wears a lot of camo. I'm sure you'll see it!

[haven]

Yes. Found this old topic about the DOLer whose dog was being trained by her and the methods that were in contention. Unfortunately a number of other threads on the subject were deleted, you will no doubt see why if you read this one.

[Yesmaam]

Thanks GG and Corvus. So back in June 08 I pretty much said word for word what I say now.

Rusky I run training courses for Government including Customs, like I said importing restricted items by false declaration is a Federal Offence.

I be waiting for your aplogy Rusky

If someone had a prong collar YES I would be happy to teach them how to use it. Now tell me how education is wrong.

Just curious, what training courses do you run for Customs?

[Staranais]

Sorry don't have pics (it was quite a few years ago) but it was a small dog with very big bulgy eyes they had a halti on the dog wich was too big the dog pulled one way the owner pulled the other and the strap that comes across the nose slipped up and put pressure on the bottom of the eye and out popped the eyeball.

Sadly the dog lost it's eye. It was very lucky though at one stage the owner was talking about euthanaising the animal due to the cost of surgery.

I'll never forget the look on that dogs face as it was one of the first serious eye injuries I had ever seen.

Oh poor dog! Nasty. That's also really interesting though, as it's the first case of a serious injury caused by a head collar I've ever heard of. Did someone report it to the halter manufacturers? I hope so.

[aussielover]

Sorry don't have pics (it was quite a few years ago) but it was a small dog with very big bulgy eyes they had a halti on the dog wich was too big the dog pulled one way the owner pulled the other and the strap that comes across the nose slipped up and put pressure on the bottom of the eye and out popped the eyeball.

Sadly the dog lost it's eye. It was very lucky though at one stage the owner was talking about euthanaising the animal due to the cost of surgery.

I'll never forget the look on that dogs face as it was one of the first serious eye injuries I had ever seen.

Oh poor dog! Nasty. That's also really interesting though, as it's the first case of a serious injury caused by a head collar I've ever heard of. Did someone report it to the halter manufacturers? I hope so.

Poor dog

I've seen eye ulcerations (but not to the extent of losing the eye) and a lot of wounds/skin infections on the muzzle due to the rubbing etc.

These are mainly due to ill-fitting head collars or the owners/trainer not using them properly: not desensitizing, using them to jerk back lunging dogs etc.