Advice Needed? Purebred Male Not Microchipped

[jandk2468]

Hi there,

Just after some advice or comments if anyone can help?

In 2010 we purchased a purebred dog from a registered breeder on dogz online. We have him on breeders terms which meant we paid a cheaper price for him and she may use him as a stud when she wants.

However, due to changing family circumstances combined with his growing dominance, we wish to have him de-sexed. The breeder has been sent photos (as she lives a long drive away), to show how he looks, and she has said that at this stage she does not wish to use him as a stud. But she would like his hips and elbows done still. At our expense...

As we have no interest in breeding, we want him desexed asap, the scores are of no use to us. I have sent this thru, stating that if she wishes, at her expense we can arrange to have it done.

Why are scores necessary if he is not going to be bred from?

Also, we have found out from our vet that he was not microchipped. It was law in her council as of 2009 that he be chipped prior to sale. Which means that he is not even registered as yet.

Where do we stand with this?

She is a respected breeder and has been for over 15 years in qld, along with being the founder of the (breed) club and a show judge.

Many thanks in advance

[Bjelkier]

The breeder might wish to know the hip scores so they can get an over all idea of how the litter ended up but I think its a bit rich asking you to pay for it.

It is possible the chip moved, did the vet search for it in other parts of the body? And did you ever sign any microshipping paper work?

Edited August 4, 2011 by Bjelkier

[Staff'n'Toller]

In most cases it is written into the contract who pays for the health testing...so you may need to get some legal advice in the final analysis if things turn nasty.

Offer to the breeder that you will have a semen collection done (you will need to contact a reproduction Vet about what needs to be done) and you will transport it to her for her to pay to store it. If she feels that your male is of good type. Then desex him.

Otherwise wait to hear what she says about the health testing.

Have the dog chipped, it's not expensive and it proves ownership.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Staff'n'Toller

[Allerzeit]

The breeder might wish to know the hip scores so they can get an over all idea of how the litter ended up but I think its a bit rich asking you to pay for it.

It is possible the chip moved, did the vet search for it in other parts of the body? And did you ever sign any microshipping paper work?

Yep, this

Hip scoring is more than just doing it before breeding - it's valuable information for breeders to know what other dogs in their bloodlines are like in terms of scores, regardless of if they are bred with or not - it's all part of painting an overall picture.

Don't be too certain that the dog was never chipped. I was there when Feonix was chipped as a baby, and she was tested after being chipped, so I know it was all done corretly - yet when we had her x-rayed earlier this year the vet couldn't find her chip and we had to re chip her.

[SparkyTansy]

You agreed to pay the cheaper price to allow him to be used at stud. these may be valuable lines to the breeder that she cannot use as yet. If it was agreed that you would get his hips done at your expense, why should she now have to pay for them, given that may have been built into the discount you received when you purchased him?

you now don't want to breed him, well given it was the breeders choice to use him at stud when he wanted to, and you agreed to breeders terms, the best thing you can do is talk properly to the breeder about your reasons for wanting to desex... perhaps you can negotiate a semen collection after his hips/elbows are scored. Are you now willing to pay the difference between what you originally paid and what you would have paid if he wasn't on breeders terms?

[Bjelkier]

You agreed to pay the cheaper price to allow him to be used at stud. these may be valuable lines to the breeder that she cannot use as yet. If it was agreed that you would get his hips done at your expense, why should she now have to pay for them, given that may have been built into the discount you received when you purchased him?

you now don't want to breed him, well given it was the breeders choice to use him at stud when he wanted to, and you agreed to breeders terms, the best thing you can do is talk properly to the breeder about your reasons for wanting to desex... perhaps you can negotiate a semen collection after his hips/elbows are scored. Are you now willing to pay the difference between what you originally paid and what you would have paid if he wasn't on breeders terms?

Actually this is a good point, you did get the dog for less.

If you agreed to get the hips done then just because you dont want to use the dog dosn't mean the breeder should suffer.

You did, after all, buy him on a breeders terms.

Is there a contract?

[jandk2468]

Actually this is a good point, you did get the dog for less.

If you agreed to get the hips done then just because you dont want to use the dog doesn't mean the breeder should suffer.

You did, after all, buy him on a breeders terms.

Is there a contract?

thanks for all the replies... so to answer the questions: =)

Firstly, the breeder told us he was not micro-chipped and we would need to do it. And we will be getting it done asap. The only issue, even the vet was quite surprised, was that it is law and it was not done prior to sale.

Secondly, there is a contract in place that stated hips/elbows would be done (have to find it to see if we were to pay or not).

We were never to breed from him, this was not a part of the contract. She said that if we ever did decide we may have been interested in a female from her later down the track, that we may if she agrees, use him at no charge. So the only part of getting him on breeders terms was that he was left entire (for her purpose only, not ours) and we got a nice looking pup.

The "discount" we received was paying the price of a limited register pup instead of a fully registered one, but as we were never allowed to breed from him, keeping him entire was for her benefit only.

So the price of having him off breeders terms would have been exactly the same.

And she has in the contract that if she wishes to use him as a stud that it will be at her expense including transport etc, even for semen collection.

[SwaY]

In 2010 we purchased a purebred dog from a registered breeder on dogz online.

Firstly, the breeder told us he was not micro-chipped and we would need to do it. And we will be getting it done asap. The only issue, even the vet was quite surprised, was that it is law and it was not done prior to sale.

You have had the dog for at least 8 months and you haven't gotten it chipped even thou you knew it had not been done??

[*Lolapalooza*]

You can complain to the CCCQ about him not being chipped.

Check your contract re the scoring, if you agreed to do it, it's not fair to not do it now.

Speak with the breeder re neutering him, she may not mind..... you need to be up front with people then there is no bad blood.

[SparkyTansy]

Well, yes, breeders terms generally means for the use of the breeder... the fact that you agreed to breeders terms means that you understood at thetime of sale, that you were getting a main registered dog, at the agreed price, with the breeder having rights to use him for breeding. You knew, when you purchased him, that you would have to keep him entire. The fact that you now want him desexed means that you will need to speak to the breeder, because you are wishing to break the original contract that saw you receiving a main registered dog on breeders terms, instead of a limited register dog.

Can you please clarify, does the contract say you are to pay for hip scores or the breeder? I'd find it unusual if it was you, unless as i said previously, this was built into the discount of the sale price. The fact that it states that she is to pay for all expenses for stud probably means health testing/scoring as well.

Out of curiosity, do you hold the papers for him, and is he in your name?

I think the best thing you can possibly do is to call and speak to the breeder about your concerns, and your options... it's a courtesy and an obligation for you to do so.

[Darkrai]

Honestly at this point i feel for you cause i went through the same situation, of wanting to get a dog i had in Co-ownership/breeders terms desexed, due to health reason, unfortunatley I lost her back to her Breeder cause they signed her over to their name...

As for contracts unless there is some legal worthiness to them, you may as use them as a wipe and flush them...

If you bought the dog as a pet and they wanted to keep it for breeding purpose, then they should be up for the cost of health tests etc. and its stupid how breeders are doing this to breeder terms pets...

[SkySoaringMagpie]

A good example of how getting a dog "cheaper" can wind up being anything but in the long run.

FWIW, desexing doesn't always give you behavioural change especially with stuff that is loosely described as "dominance problems". Have you explored training options?

[Staff'n'Toller]

And she has in the contract that if she wishes to use him as a stud that it will be at her expense including transport etc, even for semen collection.

You need to pay her the courtesy of giving her that option then. Understand that it will take time, the papers would need to be changed to main, the hips/elbows will need to be done and then semen collection organised.

[jandk2468]

Yes we have had the dog for almost a year. We have had a lot of financial issues with my husband losing his job unexpectedly and I am expecting twins. So no, micro chipping our dog has not been a priority and I dont feel anyone is in a position to judge when you need to put family first over a pet.

As for desexing our dog, I HAVE spoken to the breeder about it. Our initial conversation (over a period of months) was with the thought that we would sell him back to her. And she was fine with that. And having discussed it more and had time to think about the possibilities, we decided to desex. Which we have spoken to her about.

I realize desexing is not always a cure to dominance, but our decision is not solely based on that alone. But I have spoken to an animal behaviorist and two other registered breeders who agree neutering is a positive step in our case.

Seeing as how the breeder initially broke the law in the first place, we have been advised that if the matter were to proceed legally (which we dont want), that our contract would most likely be void as it was not undertaken correctly to begin with.

My issue now, being that the breeder has clearly stated to me, "judging from his photos at this stage I do not wish to use him as stud over my bitches, but I would still ask you have his hips and elbows scored" and since having contacted her responding to this stating that our financial position with two more babies on the way is not going to support the $300+ amount we are up for to have these scores done, especially since she has said she isn't interested in having him as a stud, just so that we can then turn around and pay to have him desexed.

I am yet to hear a response. And with my pregnancy, time is of importance as we wish to have this issue sorted before they arrive which is not long now.

And I have to admit that I am not keen on having my dog go thru two anesthetic administered procedures in a short time if she does wish to have semen collected after his hips and elbows are done. I am nearly positive that if something were to go wrong, that she would not be paying for any treatment required or replacing him if he were to die. And no the risk may not be large, but it is still a risk.

I have to add that the breeder has not been nasty or unwilling to assist us.

We have no papers for him, nothing besides a receipt to say we actually paid money for him and her typed contract. He is not in our name for registration either. Once the terms of our contract are fulfilled (being if she uses him as a stud), we send proof of desexing to her and she sends us papers? Not sure whats involved there tho. And when we picked him up, the breeder was more than willing to allow for us to desex him if an issue did arise down the track so long as we called her beforehand, so this is not news to her.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Not sure what advice you want then.

If you have decided that the contract is null and void over a microchip then it sounds like you will desex because you haven't heard (yet) from the breeder. If you want permission to do that you probably won't find it here. There are two people in your business transaction.

You bought the dog, you were given a receipt, the dog resides at your house, you will be in more trouble if you don't microchip the dog- do it and be done with it.

Apart from the the receipt of sale you are not the registered owner of this dog by the sound of it.

Perhaps you should just PHONE your breeder and keep this personal matter off the forum.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Staff'n'Toller

[mr.mister]

And I have to admit that I am not keen on having my dog go thru two anesthetic administered procedures in a short time if she does wish to have semen collected after his hips and elbows are done.

Dogs aren't put under anaesthetic when they're being collected. As far as I know.

[jandk2468]

Not sure what advice you want then.

If you have decided that the contract is null and void over a microchip then it sounds like you will desex because you haven't heard (yet) from the breeder. If you want permission to do that you probably won't find it here. There are two people in your business transaction.

You bought the dog, you were given a receipt, the dog resides at your house, you will be in more trouble if you don't microchip the dog- do it and be done with it.

Apart from the the receipt of sale you are not the registered owner of this dog by the sound of it.

Perhaps you should just PHONE your breeder and keep this personal matter off the forum.

I HAVE spoken to the breeder. Besides numerous unanswered phone calls we have now resorted to email which she responds to occasionally.

Since the dog was not microchipped, he cannot have been registered, (his entire litter can not have been legally registered since you need EACH pups chip # for this), so technically nobody owns this dog.

This is not an issue, as I have stated if you read above posts, about if the micro chipping is going to be done. We are getting it done.

I simply wanted some advice as to where we stand, we have not been thru this before. Where we stand if we simply do not agree to pay to have the scoring done. Where we stand if she wants to take legal action?

Being that there are two people in this transaction, the breeder must realise that peoples lives cannot be put on hold until they find the time to contact you regarding any issues.

[jandk2468]

Dogs aren't put under anaesthetic when they're being collected. As far as I know.

There are conflicting views, as he has never been put to stud, some have said that as it is a once off collection he would be put under. But this may be different for different vets, I can only go by what I have been told.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Not sure what advice you want then.

If you have decided that the contract is null and void over a microchip then it sounds like you will desex because you haven't heard (yet) from the breeder. If you want permission to do that you probably won't find it here. There are two people in your business transaction.

You bought the dog, you were given a receipt, the dog resides at your house, you will be in more trouble if you don't microchip the dog- do it and be done with it.

Apart from the the receipt of sale you are not the registered owner of this dog by the sound of it.

Perhaps you should just PHONE your breeder and keep this personal matter off the forum.

I HAVE spoken to the breeder. Besides numerous unanswered phone calls we have now resorted to email which she responds to occasionally.

Since the dog was not microchipped, he cannot have been registered, (his entire litter can not have been legally registered since you need EACH pups chip # for this), so technically nobody owns this dog.

This is not an issue, as I have stated if you read above posts, about if the micro chipping is going to be done. We are getting it done.

I simply wanted some advice as to where we stand, we have not been thru this before. Where we stand if we simply do not agree to pay to have the scoring done. Where we stand if she wants to take legal action?

Being that there are two people in this transaction, the breeder must realise that peoples lives cannot be put on hold until they find the time to contact you regarding any issues.

So there are actually no canine association papers - have you confirmed this? I know it says QLD in your avatar but that is the default State unless you change it. Requirements for puppy registration in each State varies- you don't need chip numbers to register pups here in Vic if you are a hobby breeder as such.

I think if you have a payment receipt and the dog is chipped in your name, and there was never canine assoc registration then the dog is yours. However, you need to seek legal advice on your contract to be sure.

[Dory the Doted One]

I would've thought that if the hip and elbow data is to be collected for the Breeders own curiosity, then they would pay for the

x-rays and scorings (the Breeder that is).

I would've thought that as a courtesy, the owners of the dog would pay for the desexing.

As far as ownership...I didn't think Pedigree Registrations paperwork constituted ownership in a Law Court (I could

be very much mistaken here).