Distant Linebreeding Or Outcross

[RallyValley]

Ok, I wanted to post this in breeders but it seems you can no longer do that

I am very curious at what point a line breeding is considered an outcross. If they a common ancestors 4,5,7,10 generations back is that still a line breeding? What about if they have multiple ancestors in common but they are all 4+ generations back?

Very curious what people think.

[Alyosha]

Sharing 4th or 5th generation ancestors I would consider line breeding. 1st and second gen I would mostly think of as inbreeding. Third is getting into a grey area, depends on subtleties like whether the same dog/bitch is involved or litter mates etc.

Only my opinion. I think it's probably one of the reasons why it's considered safer these days to simply give a dog (or pedigree) a COI percentage and let people judge for themselves.

edit - spelling... it's getting late sorry!

Edited August 3, 2011 by Alyosha

[OSoSwift]

On that - COI's that is - what is considered good, bad, close not close etc??

I would consider anything after around the 4rd generation as linebreeding, but that is just going off what I have been told over the years.

Edited August 3, 2011 by OSoSwift

[BJean]

On that - COI's that is - what is considered good, bad, close not close etc??

I would consider anything after around the 4rd generation as linebreeding, but that is just going off what I have been told over the years.

It may be of interest to know, that in some languages there is no PC term amongst breeders for "linebreeding".

Inbreeding is inbreeding.

When they inbreed they're proud of it, they don't need to call it anything else than what it is.

I use the term "inbred" when describing a lineage of my dogs.

So I might say to someone asking about the bloodline of Dog X, that: "Dog X is inbred to Dog Y"

And hence go on to explain what this means for a set of physical and temperament characteristics.

K.I.S.S.

Edited August 3, 2011 by lilli

[BJean]

Sharing 4th or 5th generation ancestors I would consider line breeding. 1st and second gen I would mostly think of as inbreeding. Third is getting into a grey area, depends on subtleties like whether the same dog/bitch is involved or litter mates etc.

wow, complex.

Only my opinion. I think it's probably one of the reasons why it's considered safer these days to simply give a dog (or pedigree) a COI percentage and let people judge for themselves.

Safer -

For whom, to and for what?

Edited August 3, 2011 by lilli

[RallyValley]

Thanks for the replies so far! lilli many references state that inbreeding is 'close mating', sire-daughter, dam-son, littermates ect.

[BJean]

Thanks for the replies so far! lilli many references state that inbreeding is 'close mating', sire-daughter, dam-son, littermates ect.

yes, but where are these references from?

[RallyValley]

Thanks for the replies so far! lilli many references state that inbreeding is 'close mating', sire-daughter, dam-son, littermates ect.

yes, but where are these references from?

Off the top of my head I have read it in 'The Joy of Breeding your own Showdog' at least... I am sure I have read it in other places too.

[aussielover]

I agree with Lilli, inbreeding and line breeding are essentially the same thing and both have advantages and disadvantages.

[RallyValley]

I agree with Lilli, inbreeding and line breeding are essentially the same thing and both have advantages and disadvantages.

Ok so you think it's the same to mate litter mates and dogs that have 1 common ancestor back in the 4th generation?

I personally don't think so which is why we use terminology such as linebreeding and inbreeding. As a student of genetics I know all mating of animals with common ancestors is inbreeding, which is why the calculation to determine the degree of common ancestry is a coefficient of inbreeding.

[AmandaJ]

I agree with Lilli, inbreeding and line breeding are essentially the same thing and both have advantages and disadvantages.

Ok so you think it's the same to mate litter mates and dogs that have 1 common ancestor back in the 4th generation?

I personally don't think so which is why we use terminology such as linebreeding and inbreeding. As a student of genetics I know all mating of animals with common ancestors is inbreeding, which is why the calculation to determine the degree of common ancestry is a coefficient of inbreeding.

Agreed.... Inbreeding essentially increases the COI with very limited input of differential genetic material whereas linebreeding, although also increasing the COI, ensures a degree of new genetic material is introducted to the gene pool of that line. Inbreeding has a much higer potential to increase the negative aspects of any genetic problems where as linebreeding, properly done, will minimize that potential with the introduction of the new genetic material. That new genetic material must be complementary to the rest. Please remember I said "properly done" - there is a lot to assessing pedigrees and lines to find an appropriate mate - a lot of research and understanding goes into a proper mating.

[sandgrubber]

You may say KISS, but it isn't simple, S.

The problem is, if the breed had an Adam and Eve, say 100 generations ago and has been kept pure, everybody is closely related, and a 5 generation COI is worth nothing. If the founding population was 100+ dogs, with a fair amount of outcrossing (with different breeds) and backcrossing as the breed developed, as with Labs and Goldies, there's a much larger gene pool to work from.

I hope, one day, we'll be able to give up on this subjective garbage and COI's and work directly from DNA indices. If you're working with a breed from a very narrow genetic base, you may be stuck. All breeding is inbreeding. If the genetic base for your breed is broad, then breeding in a close, but highly selective, manner, may be a safe, and a way to select against genetic faults. And there's lots between.

[AmandaJ]

You may say KISS, but it isn't simple, S.

The problem is, if the breed had an Adam and Eve, say 100 generations ago and has been kept pure, everybody is closely related, and a 5 generation COI is worth nothing. If the founding population was 100+ dogs, with a fair amount of outcrossing (with different breeds) and backcrossing as the breed developed, as with Labs and Goldies, there's a much larger gene pool to work from.

I hope, one day, we'll be able to give up on this subjective garbage and COI's and work directly from DNA indices. If you're working with a breed from a very narrow genetic base, you may be stuck. All breeding is inbreeding. If the genetic base for your breed is broad, then breeding in a close, but highly selective, manner, may be a safe, and a way to select against genetic faults. And there's lots between.

That is the very problem faced by Bearded Collies.....haplotyping may be one answer for us...another would be to open the register - question is how and to what?

[JoeK]

On the linebreeding, the closer the linebreeding the more chance of locking in the traits good and bad. It doesnt mean close on the linebreeding causing more chance of bad traits, is more chance of any traits to come out so may be good or bad see?. 3-3 on the linebreed is good balance for making good puppys for traits of other dogs anything over 4th generation not much use and almost outcross.

Joe

Edited August 7, 2011 by JoeK