Concerning And Confusing

[RiverStar-Aura]

Hi guys,

Am not really sure which forum to post this in so feel free to move it to the correct place if here's unsuitable.

So Kirah graduated from Puppy Pre-School yesterday and it was a lovely achievement for my little girl. What has me concerned is that much of the information given was about de-sexing and that to have the pups done as soon as possible. The vet nurse then went on to say that the vet clinic frequently de-sexes animals from as early as 12 weeks old She was even encouraging all the larger breed dogs (a Standard Poodle, a Labrador and a Labrador x Poodle) to have them done before six months.

I always thought (and from what I've read on the forums) that bigger dogs are better de-sexed later (after 12-16 months depending on size?) and that smaller dogs are fine around the 6 month mark. I was so shocked when some of these owners have their puppies booked in for de-sexing on Monday. At least she didn't try to convince me to have Kirah (Australian Terrier) de-sexed earlier than the 5 to 6 months I have planned.

I was pleased, however, when she tried to talk a bonehead woman out of breeding her "precious" (read: pansy ar53ed and timid) Pomeranian x with her friend's "pure-bred" Pomeranian. Some owners just make me want to slap them

What age would be suitable to have Kirah de-sexed? I'm thinking around 6 months because that's when the council rego is due by.

[Bilbo Baggins]

6 months is a good age.

Yes larger dogs do need the hormones to develop properly but you have to have responsible owners.

[Guest Clover]

If the dog is only going to be a pet and not a performance dog then i would be encouraging the general public to get it done sooner rather than later. Gives them less chance to think about breeding their mongral oodles/ little fluffies etc.

[persephone]

So many dog owners have difficulty in managing in season bitches /entire male behaviour ...so it makes sense to remove bits & make things easier .Not ideal.. but ....

[Swizzlestick]

Not saying I agree with the vet nurse who took your class, but as a fellow vet nurse, that is what is drummed into our heads right from the beginning.

Our clinic desex pups and kittens as young as 8 weeks often, and I hear the vets frequently recommending clients get their large and giant breeds done as early as 12 weeks too.

I recently brought the topic up yet again (about desexing too early esp. for large and giants), and was hammered from all angles. I was told I can have my own opinion, but as the clinics protocol is as it is, I must follow it and also recommend it is done early like everyone else does.

So, in her defense, she may be just doing what she is told to do.

[hortfurball]

In my opinion, any encouragement to desex is good encouragement. Those responsible owners who have done their research and know better will desex at the appropriate age, and those who are completely ignorant will do whatever they want to anyway, but it just may save a few "Oh, she's so cute" litters, and that's never a bad thing.

[Red Fox]

Not saying I agree with the vet nurse who took your class, but as a fellow vet nurse, that is what is drummed into our heads right from the beginning.

Our clinic desex pups and kittens as young as 8 weeks often, and I hear the vets frequently recommending clients get their large and giant breeds done as early as 12 weeks too.

I recently brought the topic up yet again (about desexing too early esp. for large and giants), and was hammered from all angles. I was told I can have my own opinion, but as the clinics protocol is as it is, I must follow it and also recommend it is done early like everyone else does.

So, in her defense, she may be just doing what she is told to do.

And do you? Even when you know that it may not be in the dogs best interests? What if a new client owns a giant and is clueless? What if they wish to trial in dogsports? How do you respond if a client states that their breeder has recommended desexing at xx age (or not at all)? Do you still push them to desex early, or follow the breeders advice instead?

I find it very sad that some vets will only recommend what is the clinic "protocol" regardless of whether or not it is in the best interests of that particular animal.

I'm not having a go at you by any means Sir WJ, as it is your job, but I am curious as to how you would handle the above?

[Red Fox]

In my opinion, any encouragement to desex is good encouragement. Those responsible owners who have done their research and know better will desex at the appropriate age, and those who are completely ignorant will do whatever they want to anyway, but it just may save a few "Oh, she's so cute" litters, and that's never a bad thing.

Some will. And some will cave thinking their vet knows best.

Desexing at 6 months may be best for the majority of pet dogs belonging to the majority of average owners. But it is not best in ALL cases and vets need to recognise this.

[daisygirl]

My last two dogs were desexed at 12 weeks and live long and happy lives until they were 13years old without any health problems relating to their desexing such as loss of bladder control.

I think it better to desex younger than let them go home and forget all about it and before you know its too late.

[mr.mister]

If the dog is only going to be a pet and not a performance dog then i would be encouraging the general public to get it done sooner rather than later. Gives them less chance to think about breeding their mongral oodles/ little fluffies etc.

+1

[Gayle.]

In my opinion, any encouragement to desex is good encouragement. Those responsible owners who have done their research and know better will desex at the appropriate age, and those who are completely ignorant will do whatever they want to anyway, but it just may save a few "Oh, she's so cute" litters, and that's never a bad thing.

Some will. And some will cave thinking their vet knows best.

Desexing at 6 months may be best for the majority of pet dogs belonging to the majority of average owners. But it is not best in ALL cases and vets need to recognise this.

And vets do recognise it. I go to two vet clinics, one because I like the vets there, the other because they encourage the 3 year vaccination protocol and at both of them, when I've taken pups, they've talked about the best age to desex (before 6 months). And in the case of my last two pups, I explained why they wouldn't be desexed and they were good with that and that was the end of it.

[OSoSwift]

For the general Joe Public I recommend 6 month old desexing -not younger, at the earliest 5 months.

If I knew the person could manage and entire bitch for example and not have an unplanned pregnancy I would recommend on the age appropriate to the breed.

Down here we see many unplanned litters from first heats, that is more of an issue than early desexing.

[Swizzlestick]

Not saying I agree with the vet nurse who took your class, but as a fellow vet nurse, that is what is drummed into our heads right from the beginning.

Our clinic desex pups and kittens as young as 8 weeks often, and I hear the vets frequently recommending clients get their large and giant breeds done as early as 12 weeks too.

I recently brought the topic up yet again (about desexing too early esp. for large and giants), and was hammered from all angles. I was told I can have my own opinion, but as the clinics protocol is as it is, I must follow it and also recommend it is done early like everyone else does.

So, in her defense, she may be just doing what she is told to do.

And do you? Even when you know that it may not be in the dogs best interests? What if a new client owns a giant and is clueless? What if they wish to trial in dogsports? How do you respond if a client states that their breeder has recommended desexing at xx age (or not at all)? Do you still push them to desex early, or follow the breeders advice instead?

I find it very sad that some vets will only recommend what is the clinic "protocol" regardless of whether or not it is in the best interests of that particular animal.

I'm not having a go at you by any means Sir WJ, as it is your job, but I am curious as to how you would handle the above?

I usually come out with something along the lines of "if he were my dog I'd desex him at ........mths" Owners often ask "what would you do?" which is just what I want to hear, then I let them know exactly what I would do.

Sorry, I have no clue about what is required for dog sports? Do you mean keeping them entire? I'm not familiar with anything dog sporty.

If a client tells me their breeder has advised them of a certain age to desex or to keep them entire, that's fine by me. I feel that if they trust their breeder (who would/should know a hell of a lot more about that particular breed than the average vet) then follow their advice. Afterall, the breeder also has the best interests of the dog in mind. I have no problems with owners following advice of their breeder, none at all. I too have asked my own breeder for advice on things before speaking with vets.

Agree completely with the bold bit. Every patient should be treated as the individual that he/she is.

Edited August 3, 2011 by Sir WJ

[Remarkabull]

The vet clinic I've started using up here won't de-sex before 6 months of age. I rang to book in our male kitten and he was about 4 months old at the time and they asked that I wait till at least 6 months. I was fine with that and waited (he was done yesterday at 6 months). She did ask if he was spraying or any other problem behaviours but when I said he wasn't she explained that it is their policy to leave them until at least 6 months unless there were good reasons to do it sooner.

[mr.mister]

The vet clinic I've started using up here won't de-sex before 6 months of age. I rang to book in our male kitten and he was about 4 months old at the time and they asked that I wait till at least 6 months. I was fine with that and waited (he was done yesterday at 6 months). She did ask if he was spraying or any other problem behaviours but when I said he wasn't she explained that it is their policy to leave them until at least 6 months unless there were good reasons to do it sooner.

I didn't know early desexing was such an issue with young cats? Many breeders desex their kittens before they leave for their new homes. It sounds like a nice idea to leave them until older, but some Queens come on call as early as 4 months.

[Gayle.]

The vet clinic I've started using up here won't de-sex before 6 months of age. I rang to book in our male kitten and he was about 4 months old at the time and they asked that I wait till at least 6 months. I was fine with that and waited (he was done yesterday at 6 months). She did ask if he was spraying or any other problem behaviours but when I said he wasn't she explained that it is their policy to leave them until at least 6 months unless there were good reasons to do it sooner.

wow, that's late for a kitten. Some breeds of cat are capable of reproducing at 4 months and most responsible breeders have pets desexed at around 10-11 weeks for rehoming at 12 weeks. Are they recommending 6 months for the cats benefit, or because they don't have the skills to desex a 10 week old kitten?

[karly101]

We recommend desexing at 12-16 weeks (kittens at the younger age), we have a vet who is very experianced with desexing at this age (coming from a shelter background). We have a high number of 'oops' litters from animals in their first season and generally these owners don't want to spend the money to vaccinate/worm the pups - we discourage this by offering a cheaper price to desex their pet at a young age. We have some people who prefer to wait (some from advice of breeder) and that is fine too they have all the options explained to them and will also have our support if they decide to breed too so that they are at least producing healthy puppies.

[efowler]

The vet clinic I've started using up here won't de-sex before 6 months of age. I rang to book in our male kitten and he was about 4 months old at the time and they asked that I wait till at least 6 months. I was fine with that and waited (he was done yesterday at 6 months). She did ask if he was spraying or any other problem behaviours but when I said he wasn't she explained that it is their policy to leave them until at least 6 months unless there were good reasons to do it sooner.

wow, that's late for a kitten. Some breeds of cat are capable of reproducing at 4 months and most responsible breeders have pets desexed at around 10-11 weeks for rehoming at 12 weeks. Are they recommending 6 months for the cats benefit, or because they don't have the skills to desex a 10 week old kitten?

Yes that is late for a kitten. We desex all our rescue kittens at 10 weeks. They can be responsibly done at minimum of 1kg or 8 weeks by an experienced vet. I would never recommend leaving a cat until 6 months because most of the dumped females with litters we get arent even 6 months old. There are numerous benefits to early desexing of cats!

Dogs on the otherhand are different. But saying that as a rescue we desex everything before it leaves our care. For our pups we wait until they have definete adoptions then desex, usually 10-12 weeks. We have done hundreds and hundreds and not had one problem, and most often we are in contact with adoptive owners as the pups develop.

[Remarkabull]

From what I understood from my conversation with her (it was over the phone) was that it is just their policy in general to wait until 6 months to desex any animal. I don't think they wouldn't do it if I had pushed for it to be done sooner but I was happy enough to wait. My other 2 cats (1 male and 1 female) are both desexed anyway so no worries about any unwanted litters here. I was not concerned about health issues in regards to having him done sooner or later, I too didn't think there were the same kind of issues with early desexing of cats as there is with dogs.

ETA - The thumbsup was more for the waiting longer to desex dogs.

Edited August 4, 2011 by dobesrock

[Trisven13]

The vast majority of pet owners will have no dramas with a pup desexed early. When running the dog rescue we desexed at 8 weeks (or an agreed weight for tiny pups) and we have NEVER had a problem of incontinence reported with a pup who was desexed at that age. Yes they have had longer limbs BUT I don't see an issue with that for a pet. Unfortunately most pet owners will have greater difficulties managing an entire animal than they will an early desexed animal. Kudos to vets who do encourage it as opposed to those who encourage people to breed their pretty mutts - and yes I have seen that!