Breeds - Hd And Ed Scoring Requirements

[angelsun]

Lilli, the point being, they are dogs....plain and simple..big or little..they are all built the same way when it comes to bone structure, ligiments, muscles etc...to believe that a chihuahua can not have HD simply because it weighs what it does, but a Great Dane can, simply because it weighs what it does, is hiding in the sand.

It's all relative really...yes the toy breed can weigh 2kilo's, but the bones/muscles/ligaments etc reflect that and proportionately, they are the same as the giant breed weighing over a hundred kilos.

Actually I completely disagree.

You size up a Pekingese to Kelpie size and you don't have a "normal" looking dog. Size up a Pug and you have a dog twice the width of a Bullmastiff. They are NOT proportionately the same.

There is an idea that all dogs have the exact same hip shape - they don't. We've bred them to have different pelvic construction. You can't turn around and say now they all must have the same structured socket.

I think each breed should identify what they are tested for and not have all breeds have the same testing requirement based on what *your* breed tests on.

I am not anti-health testing (I actually known as a campaigner for it), it just needs to be applicable for breed. No point testing eyes and hearing and not Von Willebrand if dogs are dying from VW and <1% are coming up abnormall in ears & eyes.

I'm not saying that you can upsize a peke to kelpie size and maintain the peke 'type' I"m saying that our breeds as we know them know, have been genetically altered from Size A to Size B over many many years. If we go BACK in history of our breeds, use the Pom for example, knowing that many many years ago, it was a larger spitz breed that was genetically designed to be smaller generation after generation. We see the puppy farm Poms more to this as they are more worried about how many pups can a bitch carry, compared to what is the written standard for size requirement, but this is aside from the point. The breed began as a size...WE changed that size by selectively breeding the smallest to the smaller and suddenly many of the toy breeds we know now, were born. Therefore we have in fact begun with the same dog as many of the spitz breeds, but have reduced it, ratio to ratio, the structure is the same. To proclaim (or split hairs) that the angles are different and therefore the risk of HD becomes different, isn't factual or even remotely accurate. Lets look at what is scored...Cranial acetabular edge...all dogs have this. Acetabular fossa....all dogs have this, cranial eff. acet.rim....all dogs have this, femoral head recontouring...all dogs have this.

Where then is the logic that some breeds, who come with all these structural components, would not have incidents of defect that COULD end up being considered hereditary? We can not say that because a sheltie has features of the collie rough, but it is in fact NOT a miniature collie, that whatever a collie may possess as genetic problems, is not in a sheltie because a sheltie is simply NOT a collie? A border collie is not a collie rough, but they share some problems, and these problems can be found in other breeds not related to the collie family at all.

The ETT (toy manchester) came from selectively taking small Manchesters and breeding them together. Over many generations they became so small and fragile they couldn't walk. They broke bones easily and were abominations to look at. They no longer looked like their larger relatives other than they were black and tan and short coated. But they still held the genetic issues common to both. Over a time, once folks realized how badly they were screwing up the dogs, they realized the 'teacup' manchester wasn't a good thing and they added some standard manchesters to give the breed some substance. Now we can see standards coming from toy litters..we see occasionally the ETT produce some whoppers....clearly a Manchester in all aspects. As such, they come with the same problems....LP for example. Regardless of size, we find slipping patellas in many breeds, not just toys as often many believe it to be strictly a toy problem. I'm reminded of the bullmastiff with the grade 3 patella problem, owned/bred by a friend of mine.....so many scoffed that it was the same problem as could be found in pugs....why? Because "patellas don't happen in giant breeds", to which my friend pointed out...they all have knees.....

This is my point in regards to hips and testing....ALL dogs have hip joints, and sockets....they are all called the same, regardless of the breed and an exray sent to a vet with no other information, will be read like all the others...measured and assessed. It's simply a hip/socket assembly and breed not withstanding, should be assessed as such. It is a good thing that there are many out there that clearly know their breeds percentage of HD incidences....but is this based on what total testing figure?

When beginning to compile the stats for Pennhip in my breed, we had our figures lumped in with all other breeds that were done....because we didn't have enough individuals to form our own percentile.

To be in the 95 percentile is great when you are talking about 10 thousand examples...not such a brag when you are talking about ten.

[Lowenhart]

I'm not saying that you can upsize a peke to kelpie size and maintain the peke 'type' I"m saying that our breeds as we know them know, have been genetically altered from Size A to Size B over many many years. If we go BACK in history of our breeds, use the Pom for example, knowing that many many years ago, it was a larger spitz breed that was genetically designed to be smaller generation after generation. We see the puppy farm Poms more to this as they are more worried about how many pups can a bitch carry, compared to what is the written standard for size requirement, but this is aside from the point. The breed began as a size...WE changed that size by selectively breeding the smallest to the smaller and suddenly many of the toy breeds we know now, were born.

And that slightly larger spitz dog it decended from just appeared next to the campfire one day? It was molded by human wants and needs, so what you should be saying is that ALL breeds looked like Wolves at one point and as such should be tested for the same things wolves are. ;) Cos that's pretty much the only place you can identify the lack of human intervention in the breeding.

Therefore we have in fact begun with the same dog as many of the spitz breeds, but have reduced it, ratio to ratio, the structure is the same. To proclaim (or split hairs) that the angles are different and therefore the risk of HD becomes different, isn't factual or even remotely accurate. Lets look at what is scored...Cranial acetabular edge...all dogs have this. Acetabular fossa....all dogs have this, cranial eff. acet.rim....all dogs have this, femoral head recontouring...all dogs have this.

They may have the same bones and structural points but they are NOT all carbon copies of each other. The angle at which the hip sits to the femoral head affects muscle attachment, which affects how the joint wears. The reason we have such differences is how we have different breeds. You can't say that you can get the same roll in a Rottweiler you get in a Pug. The roll is a breed trait, it can't come from the same pelvis that gives the rotary drive of a Dobermann.

Where then is the logic that some breeds, who come with all these structural components, would not have incidents of defect that COULD end up being considered hereditary? We can not say that because a sheltie has features of the collie rough, but it is in fact NOT a miniature collie, that whatever a collie may possess as genetic problems, is not in a sheltie because a sheltie is simply NOT a collie? A border collie is not a collie rough, but they share some problems, and these problems can be found in other breeds not related to the collie family at all.

You share a ancestry, you are going to share some genetic defects. Pekingese was used in Shih Tzu breeding, Shih Tzu was used in Lhasa Apso breeding, Tibetan Spanels & Lhasa Apsos were interbred, once a "Collie" was just a "Collie" no matter if it came from the Border or Shetland island. Interbreeding happened at some point and they share some genetic material. You can't say that you should test the same things in Manchesters as you do in Basenji. Even if they are both short haired, black & tan dogs which are high on leg and have definite tuck up.

This is my point in regards to hips and testing....ALL dogs have hip joints, and sockets....they are all called the same, regardless of the breed and an exray sent to a vet with no other information, will be read like all the others...measured and assessed. It's simply a hip/socket assembly and breed not withstanding, should be assessed as such. It is a good thing that there are many out there that clearly know their breeds percentage of HD incidences....but is this based on what total testing figure?

All dogs have ears so we should BAER test. All dogs have blood, so we should test for vWB. All dogs have skin so should be skin punched for SA.

All I'm saying is if this is going to be COMPULSORY testing of dogs, then it needs to be tailored to the breed and not one size fits all.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Lowenhart

[Alyosha]

I agree totally testing should be tailored to particular breeds, their issues and requirements. Otherwise I think we run the risk of jumping on the testing bandwagon because it gives us either a warm fuzzy feeling or makes us feel superior to those who don't, instead of providing any real life benefit to our breeds.

[puglvr]

I think what Lowenhart has to say is exactly what is needed. Testing needs to be breed specific. For example yes Pugs statistically have some of the highest scoring HD results - that doesn't mean that these "scores" mean that the dogs are crippled and in pain and require surgery at a young age.

Did you know that Hemi vetebra is found in GSDs and other breeds, though it doesn't have the same debilitating results as it can in Pugs and Frenchies, so should we require these breeds to x-ray for it.

We have on our website an extensive list of conditions/diseases that can be found in pugs. Do all pugs have these problems, of course not.

In fact most people would not know the most lethal condition known in Pugs. Yet research has been conducted for years and we have finally found genetic markers. We can have our dogs DNA tested, receive the results, carefully plan our matings and still "cross our fingers" that this disease doesn't show up.

[wednesday]

Dogue de Bordeaux - not compulsory, but ethical breeders are testing, and working within the guidelines that have been set on the dogueclub website.

Huge problem in the breed - HD, ED, OCD, epilepsy and heart issues are very common.

Breeders who are not testing making all sorts of excuses as to why they are not, or just say their vet's tell them the hips are good, no need for scoring or that they can die under anaesthetic so they won't risk it or other such rubbish.

On HD in general (not only being a big dog problem):

I know someone who bought a Pom x Long haired Chi - it has now been diagnosed with double HD and double luxating patellas. It was being sold as a pure bred Pom (which it has turned out not to be) and they thought they were getting a 'bargain' at $500, cheaper than a registered breeder - well, now it's going to cost in excess of $10,000 to fix. What a 'bargain'...