Hip Scoring

[angelsun]

I know of cases where dam injury has raised a problem later on when it comes to scoring, however in many cases it's easily sorted out and clear as to the cause.

As for addressing other comments. Testing is up to the individual breeder who's ethics compel them to do what they can to override what mother nature might ask, and selectively breed for certain traits. Left in the paddock, hormones do whatever they want and dogs breed. We see that all the time....we as humans who call ourselves breeders, have set goals for our chosen breeds to ensure that they are healthy and long lived. We manipulate mother nature everytime we do a mating. Part of the manipulation is selecting dogs without or with few faults and genetic problems as possible.

Many problems are deeply hidden and do not emerge for many years. It doesn't mean they do not exist. This is why many Cavalier breeders wait and do not breed their dogs until they are five or so to see if they have the heart problem that can occur. It's called responsible. They can see their dogs play and eat and want to mate...but they intervene and use the testing to help ensure that a problem that left unchallenged, could in fact end in extinction of a breed.

Stating that a dog acts outwardly as a healthy dog and lives to a certain age, does not indicate that there is not an issue that although may not directly affect them, but bred to another with the same issue, will not cause a more elevated stage of that condition in the offspring, and the circle then continues.

Breeders test, but not just because they can....it's because they feel that it gives them more information to make better choices. Breeders test for things they feel based on history or experience, they need to keep an eye on. I don't test for heart defects routinely, nor thyroid simply because although we do have incidents of them, we have not had enough in my breed to make me believe at this stage, we have issues. I know the pedigrees with the incidents in them and breed accordingly. I do vWD testing....if or when I have breeding stock that is all genetically clear, I won't have to test, however the minute I decide to use a 'carrier' I will test again to ensure that I do not breed a carrier to a carrier and possibly produce an 'affected'. We have only started to test for this....we have been lucky to not have a big affected problem as some breeds have with this, that is unseen....you can't tell by looking at the dog outside doing its job...it's healthy looking, works, plays, eats, and breeds...but suddenly can bleed out and be dead. It's something that you need a test to know what the status is, so you can manage it properly....the same as HD. We test for vWD so we know and we act accordinly....we can't cure it, or give a tablet and make it go away...we are armed only with knowledge and we must then use that to the betterment of the future of the breed. The same with HD testing. It's in many cases not seen....you can't tell you have a problem until suddenly, the dog steps off the couch where its been sleeping, and a bit of disintigrating bone lets go, the socket doesn't hold correctly and the dog can't walk. She was eight years of age and never showed a moments hesitation on any level.

Hiding behind the 'I don't have a problem, so don't have to test' doesn't cut it. I don't have HD in my line to date..I have never had a GP with HD.....do I stop testing? It's not mandatory...no one forces me to do it, and by not testing, I could save a ton of money....but I test....because if there ever is a problem, I want to be the one to know first and base the breeding future of the dogs, on that information. And yes in answer to your question Lilli.....there are breeders out there that only care about the outward appearance and if the cheque will clear the bank on that puppy that just left. They aren't always puppy farmers either....show/performance breeders can be guilty of it as well....just because they register the pups, doesn't make them good breeders....money often sways many to the dark side of this game...and the dogs are the ones that suffer.

I have been testing for years....when I have not been forced to, and I mentor others to do the same. I raise the bar on myself and hope others will as well for the benefit to their chosen breeds. I use science to help with my decisions and embrace it, but I do not let it fully dictate to me....I use my experiences of the past, and my many litters and how they have lived and what they have died from, to help what I will do in the future. Testing is not looking for problems, it's helping prevent them.

[BJean]

I know of cases where dam injury has raised a problem later on when it comes to scoring, however in many cases it's easily sorted out and clear as to the cause.

As for addressing other comments. Testing is up to the individual breeder who's ethics compel them to do what they can to override what mother nature might ask, and selectively breed for certain traits. Left in the paddock, hormones do whatever they want and dogs breed. We see that all the time....we as humans who call ourselves breeders, have set goals for our chosen breeds to ensure that they are healthy and long lived. We manipulate mother nature everytime we do a mating. Part of the manipulation is selecting dogs without or with few faults and genetic problems as possible.

Many problems are deeply hidden and do not emerge for many years. It doesn't mean they do not exist. This is why many Cavalier breeders wait and do not breed their dogs until they are five or so to see if they have the heart problem that can occur. It's called responsible. They can see their dogs play and eat and want to mate...but they intervene and use the testing to help ensure that a problem that left unchallenged, could in fact end in extinction of a breed.

Stating that a dog acts outwardly as a healthy dog and lives to a certain age, does not indicate that there is not an issue that although may not directly affect them, but bred to another with the same issue, will not cause a more elevated stage of that condition in the offspring, and the circle then continues.

Breeders test, but not just because they can....it's because they feel that it gives them more information to make better choices. Breeders test for things they feel based on history or experience, they need to keep an eye on. I don't test for heart defects routinely, nor thyroid simply because although we do have incidents of them, we have not had enough in my breed to make me believe at this stage, we have issues. I know the pedigrees with the incidents in them and breed accordingly. I do vWD testing....if or when I have breeding stock that is all genetically clear, I won't have to test, however the minute I decide to use a 'carrier' I will test again to ensure that I do not breed a carrier to a carrier and possibly produce an 'affected'. We have only started to test for this....we have been lucky to not have a big affected problem as some breeds have with this, that is unseen....you can't tell by looking at the dog outside doing its job...it's healthy looking, works, plays, eats, and breeds...but suddenly can bleed out and be dead. It's something that you need a test to know what the status is, so you can manage it properly....the same as HD. We test for vWD so we know and we act accordinly....we can't cure it, or give a tablet and make it go away...we are armed only with knowledge and we must then use that to the betterment of the future of the breed. The same with HD testing. It's in many cases not seen....you can't tell you have a problem until suddenly, the dog steps off the couch where its been sleeping, and a bit of disintigrating bone lets go, the socket doesn't hold correctly and the dog can't walk. She was eight years of age and never showed a moments hesitation on any level.

Hiding behind the 'I don't have a problem, so don't have to test' doesn't cut it. I don't have HD in my line to date..I have never had a GP with HD.....do I stop testing? It's not mandatory...no one forces me to do it, and by not testing, I could save a ton of money....but I test....because if there ever is a problem, I want to be the one to know first and base the breeding future of the dogs, on that information. And yes in answer to your question Lilli.....there are breeders out there that only care about the outward appearance and if the cheque will clear the bank on that puppy that just left. They aren't always puppy farmers either....show/performance breeders can be guilty of it as well....just because they register the pups, doesn't make them good breeders....money often sways many to the dark side of this game...and the dogs are the ones that suffer.

I have been testing for years....when I have not been forced to, and I mentor others to do the same. I raise the bar on myself and hope others will as well for the benefit to their chosen breeds. I use science to help with my decisions and embrace it, but I do not let it fully dictate to me....I use my experiences of the past, and my many litters and how they have lived and what they have died from, to help what I will do in the future. Testing is not looking for problems, it's helping prevent them.

If I say, I dont have a problem, I dont have to test. I am not hiding. I'm stating a fact from the kazak field.

If I say, in Kazak Alabai, it does not exist that a dog will get off a couch one day and realise its hip is out of its socket. This is fact. As plausible as it sounds for your breed, it is implausible for my breed from Kazak. (Terrain, another dog, human, or animal would have removed a 'pop out' hip well before the dog reached 12 months old.)

There is no need to bring ethics and scientific tests or maybe a bit of derision into it. There is also no need to attempt to try to use an ethics calculator when comparing the different ways breeders do things. If you came to kazak you will see. You would also see that your pompous assumptions are grossly inaccurate.

Left in the paddock, hormones do whatever they want and dogs breed. We see that all the time....we as humans who call ourselves breeders, have set goals for our chosen breeds to ensure that they are healthy and long lived. We manipulate mother nature everytime we do a mating. Part of the manipulation is selecting dogs without or with few faults and genetic problems as possible.

Edited August 3, 2011 by lilli