Hip Scoring

[becks]

In the last few years Hip scoring has become a recommendation to be done on giant schnauzers who are going to be bred from and a few of the breeders are starting to get their dogs done. As such, there isn't a big enough database to have a realistic average score.

So I wonder what people would consider an acceptable score? How much of a variation between each hip remains acceptable before being a potential problem?

How do the numerical hip scores compare to the ones in europe that refer to HD A or HD B scores?

Is there any simple sites available that explain hip scoring and how it should be used? What does a 'new to hip scoring' person need to know?

Does scoring help to improve hips within breeds?

[Stolzseinrotts]

I am surprised that HD scoring is not a requirement for all breeds of dogs. Small dogs get HD just like large dogs.

There are a number of comparison tables about, I would find one that relates to the GS.

Hip scoring is subjective and I am sure you will get many opinions on this as well. Scoring allows you to get a bigger picture on the hip status of a breed and also family trees, but the information is only as good as the number of scored dogs in the system. Positioning is very very important for scoring.

I don't believe in breed averages as being gospel, most dogs of any breed are not not scored and added into the system and the average is only worked out on the small percentage that are recorded so I don't believe it gives you a clear picture on the hip status of a breed, it can give you only an indication of those in the system.

I tried to find the link for the Hip Score averages in Australia but I can't seem to find the link?? Somebody may be able to post it.

It will be interesting to see others comments on this.

[SwaY]

It's not a requirement in my breed either

Here is a site I manage that has some Dane scores, links on how to read them and a conversion chart

http://www.greatdanes.net.au/scores.htm

[Stolzseinrotts]

It's not a requirement in my breed either

Here is a site I manage that has some Dane scores, links on how to read them and a conversion chart

http://www.greatdanes.net.au/scores.htm

I am gobsmacked that Danes do not have a HD ED xray requirement.......

[SwaY]

It's not a requirement in my breed either

Here is a site I manage that has some Dane scores, links on how to read them and a conversion chart

http://www.greatdanes.net.au/scores.htm

I am gobsmacked that Danes do not have a HD ED xray requirement.......

Tell me about it !!!

[*Lolapalooza*]

Bernese Mountain Dogs don't have a requirement it's just an unwritten rule that any 'good' breeder xrays and scores hips and elbows.

The ANKC should make it compulsory for registration in many more breeds than it does but i think clubs need to campaign for this (is that right?)

[Fordogs]

Check out the "German Shepherd Dog Council of Australia"

[missymoe]

It's not a requirement in my breed either

Here is a site I manage that has some Dane scores, links on how to read them and a conversion chart

http://www.greatdanes.net.au/scores.htm

I am gobsmacked that Danes do not have a HD ED xray requirement.......

Tell me about it !!!

Wow, great scores on what has been recorded for such a large breed. Scoring is not a requirement in Bullmastiff's either - most breeders do now but some breeders in U.K still never score

[angelsun]

Our German Pinschers aren't required but we do it, because we know it's the right thing to do..however, we do have breeders in North America that although they get hips checked, breed with substandard anyway...the loop hole being, they checked...there is no rule (other than in Canada in association with the GPCC) that says what minimum is required for breeding.

I'm all for bringing in set score scheme, such as the GSD's have. What gets me are those in breeds that say strongly, that they don't have to exray because they don't have a problem in the breed...how do you know when you don't exray? If there is a hip, a socket and ajoining structure...there can be a problem....I have a friend that found HD in her sheltie line, spay/neutered everything and started again....I really respect that sort of thing!

[Stolzseinrotts]

Ok I an even more gobsmacked!

Wow, Bullmastiffs and Bernese do not have a HD ED xray requirement.......

I am so very surprised that it is not a requirement, talk about your head in the sand attitude! I commend those breeders who do score their stock, you guys need to push for all the others to do it and get it passed through the ANKC to have it done for litter registration. State Clubs need to move a motion to the National Clubs to get it to the ANKC level for acceptance and to be implemented Australia wide.

The Rottweilers must be scored for both HD and ED for registration of a litter. But under the ANKC there is no cut off on the scores. A cut off only applies to those people who are members of their State Breed Club/s and those Clubs abide by the maximum combined score of the Sire and Dam that it does not exceed 20, which is the National Rottweiler Council [Australia} guidelines. You can effectively put a dog with a score of 20 to a bitch with a score of 0 to comply with the NRC[A] requirements.

The GSD people are and have been very serious about HD and ED scoring their breeding dogs and they are IMO to be applauded for their strict breeding guidelines.

Becks I look forward to hearng more about the GS schemes that you come across, I know in Europe they would be scoring all breeding stock.

[SwaY]

What gets me are those in breeds that say strongly, that they don't have to exray because they don't have a problem in the breed...how do you know when you don't exray?

EXACTLY !!!

[BJean]

Our German Pinschers aren't required but we do it, because we know it's the right thing to do..however, we do have breeders in North America that although they get hips checked, breed with substandard anyway...the loop hole being, they checked...there is no rule (other than in Canada in association with the GPCC) that says what minimum is required for breeding.

I'm all for bringing in set score scheme, such as the GSD's have. What gets me are those in breeds that say strongly, that they don't have to exray because they don't have a problem in the breed...how do you know when you don't exray? If there is a hip, a socket and ajoining structure...there can be a problem....I have a friend that found HD in her sheltie line, spay/neutered everything and started again....I really respect that sort of thing!

I'd argue unless it affects a dogs lifespan or quality of life

then it's not a problem.

If individuals from a group of dogs, live on avergae 12 - 16yo

and are active for most of that time

who cares what the hips 'score' is?

The dogs breed naturally, they can jump and they can run.

They can live out on their own.

Does it matter what the score on their hip is?

What about if we said, no breeding from dogs whose sibling or parent has died from bloat.

Or whose sibling or dam/sire had died of cancer at less than 6 years old.

Or maybe we could add the above to the Hip xray and Elbow xray requirements.

Edited August 1, 2011 by lilli

[angelsun]

I'd argue unless it affects a dogs lifespan or quality of life

then it's not a problem.

And what is the gauge of this? To desex a dog and remove the possibility of breeding will not change that the dog has crappy hips, but it will hopefully prevent more generations of same.

If individuals from a group of dogs, live on avergae 12 - 16yo

and are active for most of that time

who cares what the hips 'score' is?

Because by doing our best to ensure the hip structure is as healthy as can be based on generational situations, we do our best to see that the average lifespan DOES in fact fit into those numbers. Dogs with HD, do not....so it DOES matter what the hip score is.

The dogs breed naturally, they can jump and they can run.

They can live out on their own.

Does it matter what the score on their hip is?

so that the dogs CAN in fact jump and run and live out their lives, we need to know that we are not continuing to breed with less than the best possible. Without knowing for sure, we can not ensure that the dogs will be long lived and sound.

What about if we said, no breeding from dogs whose sibling or parent has died from bloat.

I know a few that have stopped a line because there were too many dogs dying of bloat. They found that generations kept producing pups that had this problem, and after about four generations, realized there WAS in fact a problem....some breeders tack stomachs and keep going....some breeders cut bait and start again. This sort of situation is not that uncommon really when it comes to true protectors of a breed.

Or whose sibling or dam/sire had died of cancer at less than 6 years old.

Or how about the dogs with epilepsy....yes I know of a breeder that had all offspring desexed (most were as they were sold as pets anyway) when one bitch was positively diagnosed with this (seizure occuring during an MRI which was amazing for research and our breed) They contacted every owner, told them of the sibling with the condition..spayed the mother and the sister (show bitch) they kept and once again.....started over....the same has applied to people I know with dogs and cancer, or pancreatitis, or massive auto immune problems, or addisons, or cushings.....again, it's NOT uncommon for a good ethical breeder who truly cares about their chosen breed, to taks such drastic steps, even though they are not regulated to do so.

Or maybe we could add the above to the Hip xray and Elbow xray requirements.

Why not? In my breed...my national breed club (Canada) required hip exrays to be 'good' (OFA scheme) or better, or from OVC, the Ontario Vet College, to be 'clear of any signs of dysplasia' for breeding purposes. We needed vWD testing and no carrier/carrier were permitted to be bred together. We required annual eye testing. NO ONE in my breed questioned these requirements and all agreed it was in the breeds best interest to do our best to ensure healthy stock and the future of our beloved breed.

I for one, applaud that the GSD club (although I disagree with some of their items) have put a maximum score on both hips and elbows. We here, have an average of about 5 total and 0/0 elbows, so we're not generally concerned about the number, but glad to see it in place.

Pats on the backs to ANY breeder that does testing on ANY level to ensure healthy dogs, and is willing to remove something less than acceptable from their breeding program, because they KNOW that it is the right thing to do FOR THE BREED....yup...it sucks sometimes for the person.....but it's not about the people..it's about the dogs.

[BJean]

I'd argue unless it affects a dogs lifespan or quality of life

then it's not a problem.

And what is the gauge of this? To desex a dog and remove the possibility of breeding will not change that the dog has crappy hips, but it will hopefully prevent more generations of same.

I gauge a dogs overall health by their lineage longevity and what related dogs have died from.

If I have an 16yo grand dam, running around in the field

and her 12 yo son

and his 5 year old son

and offspring of the same

that is what I guage against.

I dont need a hip xray to tell me what mother nature can.

I dont understand the desexing part.

If individuals from a group of dogs, live on avergae 12 - 16yo

and are active for most of that time

who cares what the hips 'score' is?

Because by doing our best to ensure the hip structure is as healthy as can be based on generational situations, we do our best to see that the average lifespan DOES in fact fit into those numbers. Dogs with HD, do not....so it DOES matter what the hip score is.

Actually no it doesn't.

If all dogs from a lineage live well into their teens and don't exhibit problems with their bone structure

why does it matters what their hip score is.

If a dog with a 'bad' hip score still lives into it's teens and runs with ease as far as the eye can see.

Is never effected by cancer, bloat or endocrine -

Why wouldn't I breed with that dog?

The dogs breed naturally, they can jump and they can run.

They can live out on their own.

Does it matter what the score on their hip is?

so that the dogs CAN in fact jump and run and live out their lives, we need to know that we are not continuing to breed with less than the best possible. Without knowing for sure, we can not ensure that the dogs will be long lived and sound.

I guess I'm a simpleton.

If the 1st, 2nd and 3rd generational forebears have been athletic all their lives with minimal intervention, then I expect the subsequent generation will also.

If forebears and related lineage have had problems, then I will also breed problems. So no more breeding from such genetic basket cases.

What about if we said, no breeding from dogs whose sibling or parent has died from bloat.

I know a few that have stopped a line because there were too many dogs dying of bloat. They found that generations kept producing pups that had this problem, and after about four generations, realized there WAS in fact a problem....some breeders tack stomachs and keep going....some breeders cut bait and start again. This sort of situation is not that uncommon really when it comes to true protectors of a breed.

Or whose sibling or dam/sire had died of cancer at less than 6 years old.

Or how about the dogs with epilepsy....yes I know of a breeder that had all offspring desexed (most were as they were sold as pets anyway) when one bitch was positively diagnosed with this (seizure occuring during an MRI which was amazing for research and our breed) They contacted every owner, told them of the sibling with the condition..spayed the mother and the sister (show bitch) they kept and once again.....started over....the same has applied to people I know with dogs and cancer, or pancreatitis, or massive auto immune problems, or addisons, or cushings.....again, it's NOT uncommon for a good ethical breeder who truly cares about their chosen breed, to taks such drastic steps, even though they are not regulated to do so.

Or maybe we could add the above to the Hip xray and Elbow xray requirements.

Why not? In my breed...my national breed club (Canada) required hip exrays to be 'good' (OFA scheme) or better, or from OVC, the Ontario Vet College, to be 'clear of any signs of dysplasia' for breeding purposes. We needed vWD testing and no carrier/carrier were permitted to be bred together. We required annual eye testing. NO ONE in my breed questioned these requirements and all agreed it was in the breeds best interest to do our best to ensure healthy stock and the future of our beloved breed.

I for one, applaud that the GSD club (although I disagree with some of their items) have put a maximum score on both hips and elbows. We here, have an average of about 5 total and 0/0 elbows, so we're not generally concerned about the number, but glad to see it in place.

Pats on the backs to ANY breeder that does testing on ANY level to ensure healthy dogs, and is willing to remove something less than acceptable from their breeding program, because they KNOW that it is the right thing to do FOR THE BREED....yup...it sucks sometimes for the person.....but it's not about the people..it's about the dogs.

I think carting dogs in and out of vet procedures should also be weighed up into what is overall healthy for the dog and the breed.

I'm not a testing nut. I'm a global canine preservationist lineage nut.

For me, if a dog is in its teens and still producing, and still surviving, and still galloping, it gets my attention.

[rotts4ever]

Below are part of the requirements from Rottweiler Club of NSW constitution but they are quidelines and members can appeal.

Cheers Lee

In order to breed from any Rottweiler it must conform to the following:

a) Be free of any disqualifying breed faults

b) Have Eye and Mouth Certificates signed by a Veterinary Surgeon that certifies the dog is free

of entropian/ectropian and has full dentition with a scissor bite

c) Have X-ray results, on NRC(A) paperwork, read by an accredited AVA panelist, that are

within the following limits:

(i) No individual hip score can be greater than 12 for dogs X-rayed on or after 1/1/99.

(ii) Not be bred with a partner where the combined breeding score is greater than 20

(Note: appeals can be made to the Committee if a breeder wishes to breed above this

breeding pair figure)

(iii) All Rottweilers whelped after 1/1/97 must provide X-ray results for Elbows as well as

Hips. [6.3.98]

d) Meet the requirements of the Club’s Elbow Dysplasia Scheme that was implemented from

1 January 2002 [3.8.01]:

(i) As elbows are graded individually, the higher of the two grades be taken as the overall

grade and the following restrictions apply:

Grade 0 can be bred to Grades 0, 1, 2 or 3

Grade 1 can be bred to Grades 0, 1, or 2

Grade 2 can be bred to Grades 0 or 1

Grade 3 can be bred to Grade 0 only.

RCNSW Rules & Regulations as at 1st March 2010 26

5.7.4 Imported Rottweilers. Effective 1 December 1999, any Rottweiler that has been imported into

Australia must have hip and elbows read and scored under the NRCA/Willis scheme. That is, any

Club member who has imported, co-owns a dog or bitch, or who uses an imported dog at stud,

that has been X-rayed and scored in a previous country of residence, where the owner has the Xray

plates, only needs to have those plates re-read under the NRCA scheme (as long as those

plates comply with the NRCA identification requirements). If however, they do not have the

plates, or those plates are not correctly identified in terms of the NRCA scheme, then the

dog/bitch must be re-X-rayed, read and scored under the NRCA scheme.

Notes:

1. Imported Semen: Where imported semen is used by a member then:

BVA/WILLIS scores 5 and under

can be mated to the following:

• OFA Fair

• FCI HDB

• VDH HD1

• ADRK HD+/-

Scores 10 and

under:

• OFA Good

• FCI HDA

• VDH HD0

• ADRK HDScores

15 and under:

• OFA Excellent

All elbows must be X rayed

Members can appeal to the Club for cases outside these scores on individual merit [1.12.00].

2. Where the dog has died and semen is being used copies of previous results must be submitted

as per normal practice.

3. For dogs/bitches whelped prior to 1 January 1997, elbow results are not compulsory. This is

in line with Club requirements for all Australian bred Rottweilers.

4. This requirement is applicable to all members of the Rottweiler Club of NSW and for all

litters. [7.8.99]

[becks]

Becks I look forward to hearng more about the GS schemes that you come across, I know in Europe they would be scoring all breeding stock.

It's just finding them and being able to understand them! I know the Scandinavian countries have public databases BUT they aren't much use when you don't understand the language to get around the site - and then these dogs tend not to be in the lines I am interested in!

Other euro countries i have seen scores listed on pedigrees on websites - but who know how truthful these are?

Thanks for the links Sway!

Still interested in hearing where people would draw the line with hips of different values.

Also how easy is it to damage a hip on a puppy to cause an uneven score?

[angelsun]

There are in fact many dogs that live til they are 15 and have shitty hips....that's a fact...there are generations of dogs that we see in homes that are in fact structurally not correct, but because there are no comparisons, they are believed to be correct.

Because a dog or dogs, appears to be happy, healthy etc wagging tail, eating and breeding....we can not say that the dog or dogs are in fact free of genetic issues.

Long time breeders, although they did not have exrays (go back long before any of us were around and during the formation of many of the breeds we take for granted today) sorted out strong from weak. They watched the hops in the fields and knew what it meant. They watched for hitches in the gait, and they removed one way or another, these animals from the breeding program, because they knew in the long run, for the betterment of their breed, it was the correct thing to do. These breeders went on to mentor others after them, teaching their tricks of observation and instilling a hard line on what was acceptable to carry on. Castration occured more than spay, simply due to the times....it was their way of helping sort things out.

Today, money is too much at the forefront....dog X cost $$ to import and raise, and by god..I'm getting a litter of it!

Walks on three legs most days? No matter...it still walks...but boy, should you see it run!! It eats well and never cries out in pain, so clearly it's just fine....and it's ten now....so what's the problem? Sure, there have been a few of its pups that walk the same way, but they eat and play and don't yelp either....so they must be ok too.

We can't test for everything....and to be honest, if we look hard enough, we will find something.....but to NOT look....is simply fooling ourselves....it goes back to my buggaboo about those that state they don't have a problem, therefore they don't have to test.....

We never knew in my breed, that we have genetic cataract problem....our dogs average age is 15 years. We never knew that when the older dog went blind, it in fact had been mostly blind for years before but had adapted and we never noticed. They played, they bred....they did everything we expected of them....suddenly someone got suspicious and took some to the optomotrist vet....bam....punctate cataracts...PRA.....Micropapallia.....we had a problem....what we didn't realize was that a pile of pet owners, had blind dogs....accepted it, or had them put down and never told anyone.....suddenly all us special breeders that used the average age theory, got put in our place.....we forgot or refused to add in all those dogs that went blind and were PTS by 5 years of age...suddenly our breed age average plummetted....we pulled our fingers out and brought in eye testing as one of the things that needed to be done...test..then decide what to breed to what....don't necessarily throw that baby out with the bath water...but base future generations on firm factual information to ensure a healthy and long lived animal. Without testing, we are just shaking those dice and letting them go....testing loads the dice a bit....not a lot...but in some cases enough to make things a bit more predictable to get 7 or 11.

The average pet owner, knows now, to ask about health testing...to ask to see the paperwork that comes along with it, and to question those that do not or don't believe in testing...or make claims that their dogs do NOT have any issues and never have...

[BJean]

There are in fact many dogs that live til they are 15 and have shitty hips....that's a fact...there are generations of dogs that we see in homes that are in fact structurally not correct, but because there are no comparisons, they are believed to be correct.

I fail to see how a dogs hips are relevant if a dog lives a full life doing what it has been bred to do. That tells me the dog had correct structure for its environment. If it did not it would not have survived. This is how it is for dogs in the field.

Because a dog or dogs, appears to be happy, healthy etc wagging tail, eating and breeding....we can not say that the dog or dogs are in fact free of genetic issues.

I disagree. In the absence of vet care and human meddling, it is the only assertion to make. If there is shitty hips in a dog in its late teens, still surviving in the field, then shitty hips aren't a problem.

Long time breeders, although they did not have exrays (go back long before any of us were around and during the formation of many of the breeds we take for granted today) sorted out strong from weak. They watched the hops in the fields and knew what it meant. They watched for hitches in the gait, and they removed one way or another, these animals from the breeding program, because they knew in the long run, for the betterment of their breed, it was the correct thing to do. These breeders went on to mentor others after them, teaching their tricks of observation and instilling a hard line on what was acceptable to carry on. Castration occured more than spay, simply due to the times....it was their way of helping sort things out.

Dogs with hitches/limps in their gait or with poor formed fronts/rears succumb easily in physical confrontations and dont get to breed one way or another.

A bitch with poor knees wont hold a male to tie properly.

A dog that has inefficient gait will tire long before the journey home and wont make it back to water and shade.

Yes I see what you are describing above, it is another way of testing dogs when the elements and outdoor working environment cannot.

imo it only prooves that all dogs should not have to be tested for ailments that they don't generally have.

Today, money is too much at the forefront....dog X cost $$ to import and raise, and by god..I'm getting a litter of it!

Walks on three legs most days? No matter...it still walks...but boy, should you see it run!! It eats well and never cries out in pain, so clearly it's just fine....and it's ten now....so what's the problem? Sure, there have been a few of its pups that walk the same way, but they eat and play and don't yelp either....so they must be ok too.

Do breeders think like this?

We can't test for everything....and to be honest, if we look hard enough, we will find something.....but to NOT look....is simply fooling ourselves....it goes back to my buggaboo about those that state they don't have a problem, therefore they don't have to test.....

We never knew in my breed, that we have genetic cataract problem....our dogs average age is 15 years. We never knew that when the older dog went blind, it in fact had been mostly blind for years before but had adapted and we never noticed. They played, they bred....they did everything we expected of them....suddenly someone got suspicious and took some to the optomotrist vet....bam....punctate cataracts...PRA.....Micropapallia.....we had a problem....what we didn't realize was that a pile of pet owners, had blind dogs....accepted it, or had them put down and never told anyone.....suddenly all us special breeders that used the average age theory, got put in our place.....we forgot or refused to add in all those dogs that went blind and were PTS by 5 years of age...suddenly our breed age average plummetted....we pulled our fingers out and brought in eye testing as one of the things that needed to be done...test..then decide what to breed to what....don't necessarily throw that baby out with the bath water...but base future generations on firm factual information to ensure a healthy and long lived animal. Without testing, we are just shaking those dice and letting them go....testing loads the dice a bit....not a lot...but in some cases enough to make things a bit more predictable to get 7 or 11.

The average pet owner, knows now, to ask about health testing...to ask to see the paperwork that comes along with it, and to question those that do not or don't believe in testing...or make claims that their dogs do NOT have any issues and never have...

I don't agree with telling pet owners false breeder categorization questions. IE: if a breeder does/ doesn't do this then it means xyz.

I guess dog breeders like to tell other dog breeders how things should be done and why their way is best.

I don't agree with it. So I don't subscribe to it.

[SwaY]

Also how easy is it to damage a hip on a puppy to cause an uneven score?

I went to a lecture on Developmental / Growth Disorders in Great Danes last week.

All to do with HD/ED/OCD etc

Genetics/Nutrition/Activity are the three factors to take into account.

[becks]

So things like dam stepping on pup or pup having a fall could influence hip score later on?