Breeder Or Farmer

[espinay2]

By following that state-of-the-art knowledge base... the Military Dog Unit at Amberley has developed a superb model for socialising the dogs they breed with.....& the puppies they breed. They know what 'hard-wiring' means & what is the 'critical learning period'.

The description of what they do is precisely how all dogs should be bred & raised (not farmed). Whether a SWF intended to be a lap dog or a Belgian Shepherd intended to walk beside a soldier.

My question of the OP case was, 'How can those 84 dogs be socialised?' In answer, shrieks of silence rent the air.

Your statement and question is somewhat coontradictory considering the number of dogs in the breeding program at Amberley and the fact that that are raised in a kennel environment.

How can they be socialised? I think you have rather answered your own question. Remember that that RAAF does not hold a monopoly on those techniques which are in fact utilised in quite a lot of kennels (as anyone who has read books by or spoken to people such as Pat Hastings or Carmen Battaglia will know).

BTW, many if not most of the dogs/bitches in the breeding program are not raised in a home environment - only those destined to be Military Working Dogs may spend some time in foster environments.

Edited July 31, 2011 by espinay2

[westiemum]

You cant judge a breeder by how many dogs they own alone and thats a fact - I know this because of my experience and a body of knowledge which tells me that one breeder with one litter can sometimes muck it up better than one with a hundred.

Julie I respectfully disagree - I suspect from your comments you haven't read the whole thread so that might be a good idea...

This thread is about a man with 84 dogs who works in a pet shop and not one poster has said thats not a lot or has said that is something they think is reasonable. There has been a lot of bellowing about assumptions, generalisations and not enough information however IMO and experience I have never seen or heard of a dog farm with this many dogs which socialises their puppies properly. In fact if what you say is true is true and different breeds need different management then they are even worse than I thought and thank you for supporting my argument further. Big numbers of dogs are usually characteristic of dog farms, commercial dog farmers and badly socialised dogs so they usually go hand in hand. Various posters, me included have agreed that bad management is not related to numbers - both can be 'mucked up'. But there is a point where good socialisation is not possible without significant investment in staff - and IMO 84 is well above it.

Edited July 31, 2011 by westiemum

[espinay2]

Julie Huh? Where was I talking about military dogs? Although I happen to agree with Mita having had a lot to do with the RAAF dog Squad in Darwin some years ago. And everything Mita said stacks up with everything I learnt then from the RAAF Dog handlers. They are heavily socialised as puppies and live in their handlers households during their working life and retire to them and their families. So whats the difference?

You may want to check your information. Trained MWD do not live with their handlers, they live in the kennels and a retired MWD is not rehomed with anyone, they are PTS at the end of their working life. They are considered too much of a 'loaded gun' to be less than strictly controlled. Dogs that fail the initial MWD training (and retired brood bitches etc) may be rehomed in pet homes if suitable. This is done several times per year.

Dogs not trained for bitework (eg expolosives detection dogs) may be homed with their handlers at the end of their working life, but certainly at the moment the policy followed by the RAAF is that a trained MWD never is.

[mita]

Correct and a breeder should socialise their puppies which is best suited to their breed according to their experience as well as their expertise which is obtained by learning from various sources and not only from one or two studies which couldnt take into account all of the variables. I have two vastly different breeds and I promise you that requires two vastly different management plans to ensure that they get the best chance at fitting seamlessly into their new household. There is a body of knowledge about everything Mita and part of it all is sorting out what is relavant to what you need to do to get the best results not just falling on a couple and taking them as gospel for your breed or your circumstances.

You cant judge a breeder by how many dogs they own alone and thats a fact - I know this because of my experience and a body of knowledge which tells me that one breeder with one litter can sometimes muck it up better than one with a hundred.

You have added 'training' to the mix, as in management because of behavioral tendencies & needs.

Socialisation simply means becoming familiar with humans & what's associated with human lifestyles.

Nothing more, nothing less. Applies to all dogs, if they are to become well-socialised.

In that respect, the military puppies are raised to do exactly that. Bred from mothers who've been well socialised themselves, handled well by humans from birth & introduced to a safe but 'regular environment with all its 'strangers', sights & sounds & early challenges like steps & stairs.

There's a critical window period for that socialisation which is learning that is literally hard-wired into the developing brain. I've quoted the UQ research on that point many times on DOL.

Around 13 or 14 weeks, the puppies are sent out to be fostered by ordinary people in ordinary homes, and share all aspects of a dog's life with them (including being left home alone while they go to work & school). A co-ordinator advises on basic 'good manners' learning.....which all dogs need.

After the fostering months, the puppies are returned to the Dog Unit to begin the training-management specific for their military service. But they take with them, ease with being alongside humans and confidence in fronting the environment. Socialisation's been hard-wired, thanks to learning at the critical develpmental stages.

Incidentally, the dogs I've got as adults from registered breeders, have been raised according to the same principles. It's why I went to those breeders & why I direct others to them.

Back to the OP. My question was how would the bloke with the 84 dogs manage to do the same. And remains the same.

(By the way, the same critical learning applies to human infants. Without socialisation being hardwired at that critical developmental stage, later adjustment in wider contexts can be problematic. )

Edited July 31, 2011 by mita

[Steve]

Julie Huh? Where was I talking about military dogs? Although I happen to agree with Mita having had a lot to do with the RAAF dog Squad in Darwin some years ago. And everything Mita said stacks up with everything I learnt then from the RAAF Dog handlers. They are heavily socialised as puppies and live in their handlers households during their working life and retire to them and their families. So whats the difference?

I never claimed to be an expert. I use 'IMO' a lot - and carefully. But yes when it comes to dog farms and the rehabilitation of poorly socialised ex dog farm dogs then yes I certainly claim significant expertise and experience .

Mita, I'll answer your question - they can't.

And that is precisely the point of my posts as well.

I believe there is a critical point/number of dogs (that probably varies within a range) where effective socialisation can't be achieved, unless of course its with a reasonable ratio of staff to puppies - and I've never seen that in any dog farm. (Dog farmers woudn't care about socialising their breeding 'stock' - and yes thats what they call them). That level of socialisation with staff eats into their profits so probably becomes commercially unviable. So with that number of dogs I can't see it happening.

As Crisovar says, annecdotes are useful - it can make a rather academic discussion real. My Mac and Andy are former dog farmer sperm donors (yes thats all they were valued for). Both are still scared of all non-westie dogs (they were caged only with westies) and are still frightened of visitors although they are both improving. This is a direct result of the way they were not socialised and marks them as 'not normal'. It has had huge life long ramifications for them. So nothing in this thread has convinced me that a huge number of dogs can be effectively socialised for households living with families.

Again, IMO companion dogs for households need to be bred and socialised in households.

Not all breeds are the same and not all breeds can or should be socialised the same way that military dogs are.

Same old same old everyone is an expert.

Mita was talking about military dogs and I think perhaps that there is some mix up between what puppies need from 7 or 8 weeks up and what they need prior to that. No one is denying they need to be socialised and that dogs need to be loved and well cared for but not all dogs need to be sleeping inside with humans to be well socialised and happy or to have the best chance at living happily ever after. I move my Maremma babies out into the cold when they are 21 days old and I deliberately dont have them inside and in front of the heater and getting cuddles all day because thats not what is best for them to prepare them for life after my place . They are still close to the house and Im tripping over the little rats everywhere I go as soon as I step outside. Puppies go home at 8 weeks and in all honesty what needs to happen prior to 7 weeks is more important to have them taught about socialisation with other dogs and from other dogs - their Mum.

I get what you guys are saying and this breeder in the OP may be really rotten but you cant judge a breeder by how many they have and you have to understand that in some breeds less human contact isnt the end of the world until they get to about 7 weeks anyway.

[westiemum]

Happy to be corrected but I would respectfully suggest that policy doesn't always get followed... ;)

Julie Huh? Where was I talking about military dogs? Although I happen to agree with Mita having had a lot to do with the RAAF dog Squad in Darwin some years ago. And everything Mita said stacks up with everything I learnt then from the RAAF Dog handlers. They are heavily socialised as puppies and live in their handlers households during their working life and retire to them and their families. So whats the difference?

You may want to check your information. Trained MWD do not live with their handlers, they live in the kennels and a retired MWD is not rehomed with anyone, they are PTS at the end of their working life. They are considered too much of a 'loaded gun' to be less than strictly controlled. Dogs that fail the initial MWD training (and retired brood bitches etc) may be rehomed in pet homes if suitable. This is done several times per year.

Dogs not trained for bitework (eg expolosives detection dogs) may be homed with their handlers at the end of their working life, but certainly at the moment the policy followed by the RAAF is that a trained MWD never is.

[Steve]

You cant judge a breeder by how many dogs they own alone and thats a fact - I know this because of my experience and a body of knowledge which tells me that one breeder with one litter can sometimes muck it up better than one with a hundred.

Julie I respectfully disagree - I suspect from your comments you haven't read the whole thread so that might be a good idea...

This thread is about a man with 84 dogs who works in a pet shop and not one poster has said thats not a lot or has said that is something they think is reasonable. There has been a lot of bellowing about assumptions, generalisations and not enough information however IMO and experience I have never seen or heard of a dog farm with this many dogs which socialises their puppies properly. In fact if what you say is true is true and different breeds need different management then they are even worse than I thought and thank you for supporting my argument further. Big numbers of dogs are usually characteristic of dog farms, commercial dog farmers and badly socialised dogs so they usually go hand in hand. Various posters, me included have agreed that bad management is not related to numbers - both can be 'mucked up'. But there is a point where good socialisation is not possible without significant investment in staff - and IMO 84 is well above it.

No I have read the whole thread but I respectfully dont agree that we are seeing the term socialised the same. Studies and things you and I have been exposed to make us believe that dogs definitely need to be socialised but socialised until they are about 7 weeks to me means in the main they need to be socialised with their Mum's and litter mates. As far as the adults are concerned so very much depends on breed and Im not denying where they live and how they live is a concern but thats not to say someone couldnt get it right and Im reluctant to bag anyone out based on such a small amount of info - thats all.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Steve

[espinay2]

Happy to be corrected but I would respectfully suggest that policy doesn't always get followed... ;)

If the policy isn't being followed when it is required to be then that is a matter which would be taken VERY VERY seriously ....... I would be interested in being provided with the details privately please

Edited July 31, 2011 by espinay2

[mita]

[Go ask the owner of the 84 dogs Mita, no one here KNOWS how his dogs live, or what their daily routine is you are all just assuming. I can't tell you how or if he does it, all I know is what was written here just like everyone else. However many large breeders have for generations managed to raise happy healthy pups sound in mind and body, I have seen it, I have lived with the pups they have bred. If the DOL brains trust doesn't believe it is possible, that's too bad.

I didn't ask what does he do.....because he's not here to answer. Which is bleeding obvious.

I asked the question....how can he provide for socialisation with 84 dogs? Given what socialisation is, how can it be done with 84 dogs. Would you like to tell me how it could be done?

I've also said socialisation is relevant whatever the number of dogs....from 1 upwards.

I have enough reservations to make a decision.. I head for registered breeders who have smaller numbers of dogs and who socialise their dogs well. And who have the double aims of socialisation and show standard quality. The results are presently at my feet.

[westiemum]

Copied to shorten the post:

Mita was talking about military dogs and I think perhaps that there is some mix up between what puppies need from 7 or 8 weeks up and what they need prior to that. No one is denying they need to be socialised and that dogs need to be loved and well cared for but not all dogs need to be sleeping inside with humans to be well socialised and happy or to have the best chance at living happily ever after. I move my Maremma babies out into the cold when they are 21 days old and I deliberately dont have them inside and in front of the heater and getting cuddles all day because thats not what is best for them to prepare them for life after my place . They are still close to the house and Im tripping over the little rats everywhere I go as soon as I step outside. Puppies go home at 8 weeks and in all honesty what needs to happen prior to 7 weeks is more important to have them taught about socialisation with other dogs and from other dogs - their Mum.

I get what you guys are saying and this breeder in the OP may be really rotten but you cant judge a breeder by how many they have and you have to understand that in some breeds less human contact isnt the end of the world until they get to about 7 weeks anyway.

Julie you know that being inside in front of the heater and getting cuddles all day is not the socialisation that we are referring to... mischievous of you to suggest as much. And we'll just have to agree to disagree on the numbers issue... I have never seen a commercial dog farm operation which socialises their puppies properly - it simply doesn't make commercial sense and makes no difference to the sale price - so why would they do it? Dog farms are nothing but a numbers/profit game - you know that - so yes numbers are an indictor/characteristic of dog farming.

[Steve]

Correct and a breeder should socialise their puppies which is best suited to their breed according to their experience as well as their expertise which is obtained by learning from various sources and not only from one or two studies which couldnt take into account all of the variables. I have two vastly different breeds and I promise you that requires two vastly different management plans to ensure that they get the best chance at fitting seamlessly into their new household. There is a body of knowledge about everything Mita and part of it all is sorting out what is relavant to what you need to do to get the best results not just falling on a couple and taking them as gospel for your breed or your circumstances.

You cant judge a breeder by how many dogs they own alone and thats a fact - I know this because of my experience and a body of knowledge which tells me that one breeder with one litter can sometimes muck it up better than one with a hundred.

You have added 'training' to the mix, as in management because of behavioral tendencies.

Socialisation simply means becoming familiar with humans & what's associated with human lifestyles.

Nothing more, nothing less. Applies to all dogs, if they are to become well-socialised.

In that respect, the military puppies are raised to do exactly that. Bred from mothers who've been well socialised themselves, handled by humans from birth & introduced to a safe but 'regular environment with all its 'strangers', sights & sounds & early challenges like steps & stairs.

There's a critical window period for that socialisation which is learning literally hard-wired into the developing brain. I've quoted the UQ research on that point many times on DOL.

Around 13 or 14 weeks, the puppies are sent out to be fostered by ordinary people in ordinary homes, and share all aspects of a dog's life with them (including being left home alone while they go to work & school). A co-ordinator advises on basic 'good manners' learning.....which all dogs need.

After the fostering months, the puppies are returned to the Dog Unit to begin the training-management specific for their military service. But they take with them, ease with being alongside humans and confidence in fronting the environment. Socialisation's been hard-wired thanks to learning at the critical develpmental stages.

Incidentally, the dogs I've got as adults from registered breeders, have been raised according to the same principles. It's why I went to those breeders & why I direct others to them.

Back to the OP. My question was how would the bloke with the 84 dogs manage to do the same. And remains the same.

No I havent added training into the mix any more than any form of socialisation would have training in the mix and they are not treated differently because of their behavioural tendencies at all but rather because of what is expected of them when they go to their new homes.

If socialisation means becoming familiar with humans & what's associated with human lifestyles then what term is used when puppies are being socialised with each other and other dogs?

Think this through Mita are we talking about what a breeder needs to do with their puppies from birth to 8 weeks or are we talking about what the person who owns the pup or who is in control of the pup between 8 weeks and 14 weeks needs to do ?

There is a huge difference as those people are doing what new owners are expected to do because our puppies are in new homes by the time they should be thinking about too many steps and stairs etc.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Steve

[Steve]

Copied to shorten the post:

Mita was talking about military dogs and I think perhaps that there is some mix up between what puppies need from 7 or 8 weeks up and what they need prior to that. No one is denying they need to be socialised and that dogs need to be loved and well cared for but not all dogs need to be sleeping inside with humans to be well socialised and happy or to have the best chance at living happily ever after. I move my Maremma babies out into the cold when they are 21 days old and I deliberately dont have them inside and in front of the heater and getting cuddles all day because thats not what is best for them to prepare them for life after my place . They are still close to the house and Im tripping over the little rats everywhere I go as soon as I step outside. Puppies go home at 8 weeks and in all honesty what needs to happen prior to 7 weeks is more important to have them taught about socialisation with other dogs and from other dogs - their Mum.

I get what you guys are saying and this breeder in the OP may be really rotten but you cant judge a breeder by how many they have and you have to understand that in some breeds less human contact isnt the end of the world until they get to about 7 weeks anyway.

Julie you know that being inside in front of the heater and getting cuddles all day is not the socialisation that we are referring to... mischievous of you to suggest as much. And we'll just have to agree to disagree on the numbers issue... I have never seen a commercial dog farm operation which socialises their puppies properly - it simply doesn't make commercial sense and makes no difference to the sale price - so why would they do it? Dog farms are nothing but a numbers/profit game - you know that - so yes numbers are an indictor/characteristic of dog farming.

Actually No I dont and call me mischievious etc but you had better spell it out for me - if the comments here about dogs being reared in households etc are not indicative of them needing to be inside with the families then what exactly is it that you mean by what a pup needs to be well socialised to be able to live happily ever after? Some commercial breeders do a pretty good job - I know that too.

[westiemum]

Julie you know the socialising I am referring to - a dog who has learned to live confidently with humans and with their lifestyle which includes dealing with other dogs and does so reliably - as well as being well socialised with their Mum in the first few weeks of life. This is impossible on a commercial dog farm with over 100 dogs and puppies who are caged on concrete.

Good breeders care for their breed and their puppies and don't have more than they can responsibly rear, including socialisation. Farmers churn them out simply for profit without care for the dogs they are breeding from or for socialising the offspring because they commercially can't/won't.

So question for you: Who are the dog farmers who socialise well who you refer to? Genuinely curious.

Copied to shorten the post:

Mita was talking about military dogs and I think perhaps that there is some mix up between what puppies need from 7 or 8 weeks up and what they need prior to that. No one is denying they need to be socialised and that dogs need to be loved and well cared for but not all dogs need to be sleeping inside with humans to be well socialised and happy or to have the best chance at living happily ever after. I move my Maremma babies out into the cold when they are 21 days old and I deliberately dont have them inside and in front of the heater and getting cuddles all day because thats not what is best for them to prepare them for life after my place . They are still close to the house and Im tripping over the little rats everywhere I go as soon as I step outside. Puppies go home at 8 weeks and in all honesty what needs to happen prior to 7 weeks is more important to have them taught about socialisation with other dogs and from other dogs - their Mum.

I get what you guys are saying and this breeder in the OP may be really rotten but you cant judge a breeder by how many they have and you have to understand that in some breeds less human contact isnt the end of the world until they get to about 7 weeks anyway.

Julie you know that being inside in front of the heater and getting cuddles all day is not the socialisation that we are referring to... mischievous of you to suggest as much. And we'll just have to agree to disagree on the numbers issue... I have never seen a commercial dog farm operation which socialises their puppies properly - it simply doesn't make commercial sense and makes no difference to the sale price - so why would they do it? Dog farms are nothing but a numbers/profit game - you know that - so yes numbers are an indictor/characteristic of dog farming.

Actually No I dont and call me mischievious etc but you had better spell it out for me - if the comments here about dogs being reared in households etc are not indicative of them needing to be inside with the families then what exactly is it that you mean by what a pup needs to be well socialised to be able to live happily ever after? Some commercial breeders do a pretty good job - I know that too.

[Tapua]

These are just statements and all I am doing is sharing my opinion and the limits I know I have with my experience. I wonder sometimes as a breeder how much more I need to do. Personally - and I am strictly only talking about myself - my dog number limit is around 6 brood bitches +- 2. ATM we have 4 girls - 2 are active breeders with all the ducks lined up prior to breeding with hips/elbows/DNA/temperament/conformation/ability - and 2 youngster one is 10 months old and the other is 5 months old both yet to have Hips/Elbows/Aces done but the other 'ducks' for conformation, temperament and ability are all there - plus we had our girls independantly tested for ability and temperament.

Its taken 4 years to get this far and $1000's in buidling, tests - be they DNA or temperament or ability. It will be another 2-4 years before we get the number I think makes a viable kennel of bitches - I havent even considered breeding a stud dog yet since I am focussing on breeding a strong bitch line.

Then there is the whelping and management of a litter, ENS,sound sensitisation ,movement, handling,light, people, travel and general noise stimulation and more so that we have predictably stable and trainable pups. With only my husband & myslef doing all this I cannot imaging the time, cost, necessary resourses and overall stress involved in maintaining a standard that is viable for 84 dogs - not withstanding the number of staff.

I would have to compromise my standards just to achieve reasonable healthy and happy pups just for the pet market and totaly ditch the idea of breeding viable pups for service needs. I place no judgement on someone with 84 dogs - I just know I cannot physically, finacially or emotionally cope with that level of breeding/socialising and feeding. I just couldnt do it.

[Guest Clover]

Even if he was a legit breeder - that is just far too many dogs. You can't exercise, socialised and work with that many dogs. They would have to spend significant amounts of time in kennels without human contact ... it just isn't healthy.

This

I have been breeding Standard Poodles for nearly 20 years - could not imagine having so many dogs - if your dogs are not part of your family & the litters personally overseen by you then, in MY opinion, you are a Puppy Farmer

I agree with both posts qouted, well said.

[oakway]

Even if he was a legit breeder - that is just far too many dogs. You can't exercise, socialised and work with that many dogs. They would have to spend significant amounts of time in kennels without human contact ... it just isn't healthy.

This

I have been breeding Standard Poodles for nearly 20 years - could not imagine having so many dogs - if your dogs are not part of your family & the litters personally overseen by you then, in MY opinion, you are a Puppy Farmer

I agree with both posts qouted, well said.

Sorry but I believe the comments that are made here are just not fair.

I would like to remind all of you that until man took over the canine they all lived in pack away from man.

Just because we have people around the world that manage large numbers of dogs does not mean they are wrong.

It just means that they are more capable of coping with larger numbers than some others.

It does not mean that they are Puppy Farmers it just mean that they are capable and financially able to do so.

Also I would like to remind all of you that to my knowledge that the word Puppy Farmer has not been defined and I would refrain from accusing people of being one, because if you don't you could end up in court.

The OP asked if that amount of dogs was to many.

I said no, (I think) it depends on the way they are are looked after.

If these supposed dogs are well housed and cared for and go on to support other members of the family then thank your lucky stars because your taxes will not be going to support them in unemployment.

Yes, it's a fact that for many, many years families around the world have made a living breeding dogs.

Yes, even the Romans before they invaded Briton.

Edited July 31, 2011 by oakway

[toy dog]

this is quite a lively discussion.

they had the exact same discussion when VCA invited members to have a forum on puppy farms. so i attended, they had a white board and the president asked what the members defined as farming?

many said it is the care and how many.

but you have to consider this, "farming" means farming an animal for money. breeding for money.

most of us breed our dogs for a purpose whether that be showing, trialling, hunting, livestock farms (herders) all for a purpose in mind so we bred our dogs accordingly.

no one has said, whether this gentlemen had crosses or pedigrees? whether he is propping up that petshop with his own stock, whether those 2 breeds he has he is crossing them togther. then you could go into, not health testing unable to because if they are crosses you can't research to weed out genetic problems etc. etc. a whole other discussion!

large farms such as the ones in gippsland state that they have kennel staff for their many designer dogs they produce, 2000 pups a year and over 700 dogs on the premises. they state that they are following codes of practice in place yet many working there and observing and visited say otherwise.

we all think different things about how many we can cope with so that discussion will never end in my opinion.

Edited July 31, 2011 by toy dog

[Crisovar]

We do have a definition of puppy farmer Oakway as far as I can tell it is anyone who dares to do something that is different to the average Doler.

[MalteseLuna]

Sorry but I believe the comments that are made here are just not fair.

I would like to remind all of you that until man took over the canine they all lived in pack away from man.

Just because we have people around the world that manage large numbers of dogs does not mean they are wrong.

It just means that they are more capable of coping with larger numbers than some others.

It does not mean that they are Puppy Farmers it just mean that they are capable and financially able to do so.

Also I would like to remind all of you that to my knowledge that the word Puppy Farmer has not been defined and I would refrain from accusing people of being one, because if you don't you could end up in court.

The OP asked if that amount of dogs was to many.

I said no, (I think) it depends on the way they are are looked after.

If these supposed dogs are well housed and cared for and go on to support other members of the family then thank your lucky stars because your taxes will not be going to support them in unemployment.

Yes, it's a fact that for many, many years families around the world have made a living breeding dogs.

Yes, even the Romans before they invaded Briton.

I would argue that dogs have not lived in "packs" as wild canines for a LONG time. Domestic dogs were "created" about 15,000 years ago. Since then they have had a very close relationship with humans. This relationship has deepened further in the last 2,000+ years as breeds were developed (via selective breeding etc) and yet again in the Victorian Era. Dogs are NOT wild animals and have not been for a very long time. They were developed by humans to preform certain functions - guarding stock, helping care for livestock, companions, hunting dogs etc etc. Dogs were developed to work closely with humans - this meant bonding between humans and dogs and largely humans would only have kept small numbers of dogs (after-all feeding too many animals would be costly - especially when food was scarce).

Large scale operations are a relatively RECENT occurrence. They have gotten very popular for money-making schemes. Large kennels can only function properly if they are well-funded and have a large staff. This does not mean that all people with large numbers of dogs are "farmers" BUT rarely does someone do it well or properly.

I would argue that for domestic dogs to function properly they need a close relationship with humans - from a young age - this means a low dog to human ratio. Even working dogs that might not be allowed inside will have a close bond with their owner - of should imo. This is the reason why I think dogs should be kept in smaller numbers.

Lets look at why people keep dogs now - largely as pets. Pets need to be socialized for them to fit into our lives (which are rapidly becoming more urban). Unsocialised dogs get dumped because they don't make as good pets (most of the time). Many unsocialised dogs/puppies come from large scale operations that sell to pet shops or via the internet - they may be able to recover (i.e. socialised by the owner) but sometimes the up-bringing and lack of human contact at a young age has already limited the puppy/dog and it's temperament is compromised.

(I wrote this quickly so some of it might not make sense...)

[oakway]

We do have a definition of puppy farmer Oakway as far as I can tell it is anyone who dares to do something that is different to the average Doler.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. :D