Breeder Or Farmer

[Crisovar]

Crisovar I'm sorry you were accused of being a dog farmer - plainly ridiculous judged on dog dishes! (I use SS too!) But you seem to have taken this very personally. And yes bad management can happen regardless of numbers. But IMO this is a discussion about what is likely to be the case with someone working in a pet shop who says he has 84 dogs and appears to be proud of it according to the OPs post...

DOL has discussed this topic at length over the years and the clear conclusion over the years is that mass produced companion puppies from commercial operations who do not socialise their puppies (and who's primary motivation is profit - its why they have so many in the first place!) are not companion animal breeders but are breeding 'stock' in the farm sense or 'product' for sale. Given extensive discussion and evidence over the years on the characteristics of dog farms, (See www.wheredopuppiescomefrom.com.au) it is highly likely that this man with 84 dogs does not socialise that many dogs and is probably in it for profit.

Therefore, commercial dog farmer.

You're right - its not about numbers - until at a certain point this many companion animals become 'stock', living in 'herds' so to speak - and take on those characteristics in behaviour and become unsuitable as companion animals for households IMO. And its generally agreed that that number, whatever it is, is excess of the number that can be reasonably socialised (and cared for) by a household (not a farm). By the time we are talking about 84 dogs, kennel staff or not, household companion training and socialisation become an issue if not impossible.

84 is a lot of dogs in anyone's book and far more than you would see on most farms, properties and cattle stations, so this is not about ignorant 'tar and feathering - rathre a discussion on what is likely to be the case here and its a companion animal welfare issue and should be discussed.

And again I'm sorry you were called a puppy farmer - stainless steel dishes are not one of the characterisics!

Happy to agree to disagree.

Mita and Poodle Mum and poodlemum have it right - assuming he has 84 dogs he's a commercial dog farmer who is unlikely to socialise his dogs and puppies properly if at all. My Andy is a puppy farm rescue and while improving, he is still frightened of visitors and other dogs (but now warms up much more quickly) - and its a direct result of his lack of socialisation and being caged in the dog farm. He didn't even like grass under his paws and initially behaved on grass like he was on hot coals! Preferred to sleep on boards or concrete in the beginning...

So any Breeder who keeps more than the number of dogs that you and others here feel is the appropriate number has dogs that turn out like yours? Some of the best natured dogs I have met have come from large breeders. The saddest rescue I ever had came from a 2 dog household that had litter to pay for an OS trip.

Bad management can occur across the board no matter how many animals are involved.

I was accused of being a puppy farmer because I fed & watered my dogs out of stainless steel bowls and therefore according to the wise had no emotional attachment to them because they didn't eat out of pretty dishes, the BS just goes on and on. The only living creature here with a uterus is a pony so that was pretty amusing. The generalisations and accusations that go on are pretty damn ignorant. People are tarred and feathered just because they don't fit in someone elses square, no proof needed, just whack a label on them.

I haven't taken this personally, I simply detest the assumptions and generalisations that frequent these threads. I simply added my SS dish anecdote as an example of the tripe that is believed by some.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Crisovar

[OSoSwift]

I was accused of being a puppy farmer because I fed & watered my dogs out of stainless steel bowls and therefore according to the wise had no emotional attachment to them because they didn't eat out of pretty dishes, the BS just goes on and on. The only living creature here with a uterus is a pony so that was pretty amusing. The generalisations and accusations that go on are pretty damn ignorant. People are tarred and feathered just because they don't fit in someone elses square, no proof needed, just whack a label on them.

Goodness, how ridiculous is that! I only have three dogs and they eat and drink from stainless steel dishes, mainly because (for me) they're easier to keep clean.

Well I must be a PUppy farmer as well. Ease of cleaning and hygiene, low chance of being chewed up and longevity obviously don't come into it. No we need fancy bowls that are more easily destroyed or if cheap possibly crack and harbour bacteria or leach harmful substances - what a load of crap.

For me personally 84 dogs is a lot of dogs,and I guess since it really doesn't happen often then most people would find it a little unusual. I would be more concerned about all the things mentioned before, as in correct care etc than the actual number, but I guess unless you know more then you can't really form an opinion.

For me that many dogs would not be doable, but if you you choose your staff/carers carefully, then it can be done and well

[mita]

So any Breeder who keeps more than the number of dogs that you and others here feel is the appropriate number has dogs that turn out like yours? Some of the best natured dogs I have met have come from large breeders. The saddest rescue I ever had came from a 2 dog household that had litter to pay for an OS trip.

Bad management can occur across the board no matter how many animals are involved.

Look at my post & you'll see that I said socialisation was the key....however many dogs someone has.

And, without socialisation, which prepares dogs to be companions alongside humans & their various lifestyles... breeding dogs is farming.

'Farming' puppies is producing a physical product.

'Raising' puppies is producing animals that will share humans' lives in some capacity, by way of stimulating hard-wired social learning in a variety of contexts.

There's sound, rigorous scientific research on this point.

By following that state-of-the-art knowledge base... the Military Dog Unit at Amberley has developed a superb model for socialising the dogs they breed with.....& the puppies they breed. They know what 'hard-wiring' means & what is the 'critical learning period'.

The description of what they do is precisely how all dogs should be bred & raised (not farmed). Whether a SWF intended to be a lap dog or a Belgian Shepherd intended to walk beside a soldier.

My question of the OP case was, 'How can those 84 dogs be socialised?' In answer, shrieks of silence rent the air.

Edited July 31, 2011 by mita

[Jumabaar]

84 dogs does sound like a hell of a lot though.

If he was a legitimate reputable breeder, don't they aim for quality over quantity? (I'm not a breeder, thats just an assumption)

Keeping and maintaining 84 dogs would require a lot of work, and more money than a job at a pet shop could supply you with.

Not saying he is a puppy farmer, but you know what they say - if it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck, it's probably a duck?

Sometimes you need quantity though. In cases where breeds mouths can go wry at a few months of age, or can come good then you many need to keep an entire litter to see which ones are breeding quality. There may be other health problems that mean people run on a number of pups so they can produce from healthy quality animals. They may be running a breeding program to eliminate or introduce new features into their lines, so once again have to wait till maturity before selling what they don't want to keep. Keeping multiple from each litter may be their method of reducing the hip scores in their lines, by ensuring they are only breeding from the best in each litter.

There are also breeders that run litters on till 6mths so they can desex them at an age they feel appropriate.

These could all boost numbers- not saying this is the case, but another option to consider. In some breeds two litters in a year could add close to 20 dogs to the number they actually wish to keep.

[westiemum]

Mita, I'll answer your question - they can't.

And that is precisely the point of my posts as well.

I believe there is a critical point/number of dogs (that probably varies within a range) where effective socialisation can't be achieved, unless of course its with a reasonable ratio of staff to puppies - and I've never seen that in any dog farm. (Dog farmers woudn't care about socialising their breeding 'stock' - and yes thats what they call them). That level of socialisation with staff eats into their profits so probably becomes commercially unviable. So with that number of dogs I can't see it happening.

As Crisovar says, annecdotes are useful - it can make a rather academic discussion real. My Mac and Andy are former dog farmer sperm donors (yes thats all they were valued for). Both are still scared of all non-westie dogs (they were caged only with westies) and are still frightened of visitors although they are both improving. This is a direct result of the way they were not socialised and marks them as 'not normal'. It has had huge life long ramifications for them. So nothing in this thread has convinced me that a huge number of dogs can be effectively socialised for households living with families.

Again, IMO companion dogs for households need to be bred and socialised in households.

Edited July 31, 2011 by westiemum

[oakway]

So any Breeder who keeps more than the number of dogs that you and others here feel is the appropriate number has dogs that turn out like yours? Some of the best natured dogs I have met have come from large breeders. The saddest rescue I ever had came from a 2 dog household that had litter to pay for an OS trip.

Bad management can occur across the board no matter how many animals are involved.

Look at my post & you'll see that I said socialisation was the key....however many dogs someone has.

And, without socialisation, which prepares dogs to be companions alongside humans & their various lifestyles... breeding dogs is farming.

'Farming' puppies is producing a physical product.

'Raising' puppies is producing animals that will share humans' lives in some capacity, by way of stimulating hard-wired social learning in a variety of contexts.

There's sound, rigorous scientific research on this point.

By following that state-of-the-art knowledge base... the Military Dog Unit at Amberley has developed a superb model for socialising the dogs they breed with.....& the puppies they breed. They know what 'hard-wiring' means & what is the 'critical learning period'.

The description of what they do is precisely how all dogs should be bred & raised (not farmed). Whether a SWF intended to be a lap dog or a Belgian Shepherd intended to walk beside a soldier.

My question of the OP case was, 'How can those 84 dogs be socialised?' In answer, shrieks of silence rent the air.

Pardon me, but what has socialisation got to do with me breeding my bitches. I have mostly lived in a country situation where the dogs see very few people. Does not mean they are not excellent top rate brood bitches. Their pups have been top winners around the world. What more do you want!!!!.

[mita]

Again, IMO companion dogs for households need to be bred and socialised in households.

Another question. In following state-of-the-art knowledge, the dogs for military service are socialised in households & the accompanying lifestyles (whatever they happen to be).

Why would that be so?

Edited July 31, 2011 by mita

[westiemum]

Pardon me, but what has socialisation got to do with me breeding my bitches. I have mostly lived in a country situation where the dogs see very few people. Does not mean they are not excellent top rate brood bitches. Their pups have been top winners around the world. What more do you want!!!!.

I rest my case...

[mita]

Pardon me, but what has socialisation got to do with me breeding my bitches. I have mostly lived in a country situation where the dogs see very few people. Does not mean they are not excellent top rate brood bitches. Their pups have been top winners around the world. What more do you want!!!!.

Obviously, nothing.

You seem to believe that socialisation & being winners in the showring are incompatible.

I own purebred Aus Ch dogs from breeders who socialised them well. One all the way from Sweden.

What more do I want? What I already have.

[Gayle.]

I was accused of being a puppy farmer because I fed & watered my dogs out of stainless steel bowls and therefore according to the wise had no emotional attachment to them because they didn't eat out of pretty dishes, the BS just goes on and on. The only living creature here with a uterus is a pony so that was pretty amusing. The generalisations and accusations that go on are pretty damn ignorant. People are tarred and feathered just because they don't fit in someone elses square, no proof needed, just whack a label on them.

Goodness, how ridiculous is that! I only have three dogs and they eat and drink from stainless steel dishes, mainly because (for me) they're easier to keep clean.

Well I must be a PUppy farmer as well. Ease of cleaning and hygiene, low chance of being chewed up and longevity obviously don't come into it. No we need fancy bowls that are more easily destroyed or if cheap possibly crack and harbour bacteria or leach harmful substances - what a load of crap.

For me personally 84 dogs is a lot of dogs,and I guess since it really doesn't happen often then most people would find it a little unusual. I would be more concerned about all the things mentioned before, as in correct care etc than the actual number, but I guess unless you know more then you can't really form an opinion.

For me that many dogs would not be doable, but if you you choose your staff/carers carefully, then it can be done and well

My dogs eat out of stainless steel bowls too, but I can't possibly be a puppy farmer because I make up for the lack of beauty in the kitchenware with the range of collars and leads I buy for their fashion pleasure. They never leave the house in unmatched attire, they are the best dressed kids on the block.

[Steve]

Mita, I'll answer your question - they can't.

And that is precisely the point of my posts as well.

I believe there is a critical point/number of dogs (that probably varies within a range) where effective socialisation can't be achieved, unless of course its with a reasonable ratio of staff to puppies - and I've never seen that in any dog farm. (Dog farmers woudn't care about socialising their breeding 'stock' - and yes thats what they call them). That level of socialisation with staff eats into their profits so probably becomes commercially unviable. So with that number of dogs I can't see it happening.

As Crisovar says, annecdotes are useful - it can make a rather academic discussion real. My Mac and Andy are former dog farmer sperm donors (yes thats all they were valued for). Both are still scared of all non-westie dogs (they were caged only with westies) and are still frightened of visitors although they are both improving. This is a direct result of the way they were not socialised and marks them as 'not normal'. It has had huge life long ramifications for them. So nothing in this thread has convinced me that a huge number of dogs can be effectively socialised for households living with families.

Again, IMO companion dogs for households need to be bred and socialised in households.

Not all breeds are the same and not all breeds can or should be socialised the same way that military dogs are.

Same old same old everyone is an expert.

[mita]

Not all breeds are the same and not all breeds can or should be socialised the same way that military dogs are.

Same old same old everyone is an expert.

Tell me, how are those military dogs socialised? What is there about that socialisation which would not be the same for other breeds?

There's a difference between 'expert' and 'expertise'. There's a body of knowledge, derived from research, about socialisation of dogs. Putting that into practice is 'expertise'/

Edited July 31, 2011 by mita

[Steve]

Again, IMO companion dogs for households need to be bred and socialised in households.

Another question. In following state-of-the-art knowledge, the dogs for military service are socialised in households & the accompanying lifestyles (whatever they happen to be).

Why would that be so?

State of the art knowledge? When is it these dogs are moved into households and socialised - what age ? Where is this study you are referring to ?

[oakway]

Pardon me, but what has socialisation got to do with me breeding my bitches. I have mostly lived in a country situation where the dogs see very few people. Does not mean they are not excellent top rate brood bitches. Their pups have been top winners around the world. What more do you want!!!!.

Obviously, nothing.

You seem to believe that socialisation & being winners in the showring are incompatible.

I own purebred Aus Ch dogs from breeders who socialised them well. One all the way from Sweden.

What more do I want? What I already have.

I asked you what socialisation has to do with the quality of a brood bitches and the quality of their pups.

I never said anything about the two being incompatable you did that.

[mita]

Pardon me, but what has socialisation got to do with me breeding my bitches. I have mostly lived in a country situation where the dogs see very few people. Does not mean they are not excellent top rate brood bitches. Their pups have been top winners around the world. What more do you want!!!!.

Obviously, nothing.

You seem to believe that socialisation & being winners in the showring are incompatible.

I own purebred Aus Ch dogs from breeders who socialised them well. One all the way from Sweden.

What more do I want? What I already have.

I asked you what socialisation has to do with the quality of a brood bitches and the quality of their pups.

I never said anything about the two being incompatable you did that.

And I replied, obviously nothing. Because you don't see socialisation as relevant.

Conclusion to be drawn...your measure of 'quality' is entirely showring-based.

As there are registered breeders who set out to socialise their dogs well (& who are also successful in the showring), the two aims are not incompatible.

[Steve]

Not all breeds are the same and not all breeds can or should be socialised the same way that military dogs are.

Same old same old everyone is an expert.

Tell me, how are those military dogs socialised? What is there about that socialisation would not be the same for other breeds?

There's a difference between 'expert' and 'expertise'. There's a body of knowledge, derived from research, about socialisation of dogs. Putting that into practice is 'expertise'/

Correct and a breeder should socialise their puppies which is best suited to their breed according to their experience as well as their expertise which is obtained by learning from various sources and not only from one or two studies which couldnt take into account all of the variables. I have two vastly different breeds and I promise you that requires two vastly different management plans to ensure that they get the best chance at fitting seamlessly into their new household. There is a body of knowledge about everything Mita and part of it all is sorting out what is relavant to what you need to do to get the best results not just falling on a couple and taking them as gospel for your breed or your circumstances.

You cant judge a breeder by how many dogs they own alone and thats a fact - I know this because of my experience and a body of knowledge which tells me that one breeder with one litter can sometimes muck it up better than one with a hundred.

Edited July 31, 2011 by Steve

[Poo-Fong]

In the past I have worked for people who would be approaching these numbers of dogs, with 2 different breeds. They have several dogs in the house as well as having dogs in the kennels, and pups are born both in the house and in the kennels. These people are renowned world-wide for the amazing temperaments on their dogs, one of which is a breed that is not usually noted for good temperament. Whilst they have lots of dogs, they are all very well-cared for and dogs from this kennel have fulfilled many roles - they have produced many top winning show dogs (locally & internationally) and many, many well-loved, well-adjusted family companions, including therapy dogs.

Would I personally have this many dogs? Not in a pink fit, but that does not mean that these dogs are unloved, neglected, unsocialised breeding machines. Numbers, or lack thereof, do not necessarily mean good or bad animal husbandry or ownership...

[westiemum]

Julie Huh? Where was I talking about military dogs? Although I happen to agree with Mita having had a lot to do with the RAAF dog Squad in Darwin some years ago. And everything Mita said stacks up with everything I learnt then from the RAAF Dog handlers. They are heavily socialised as puppies and live in their handlers households during their working life and retire to them and their families. So whats the difference?

I never claimed to be an expert. I use 'IMO' a lot - and carefully. But yes when it comes to dog farms and the rehabilitation of poorly socialised ex dog farm dogs then yes I certainly claim significant expertise and experience .

Mita, I'll answer your question - they can't.

And that is precisely the point of my posts as well.

I believe there is a critical point/number of dogs (that probably varies within a range) where effective socialisation can't be achieved, unless of course its with a reasonable ratio of staff to puppies - and I've never seen that in any dog farm. (Dog farmers woudn't care about socialising their breeding 'stock' - and yes thats what they call them). That level of socialisation with staff eats into their profits so probably becomes commercially unviable. So with that number of dogs I can't see it happening.

As Crisovar says, annecdotes are useful - it can make a rather academic discussion real. My Mac and Andy are former dog farmer sperm donors (yes thats all they were valued for). Both are still scared of all non-westie dogs (they were caged only with westies) and are still frightened of visitors although they are both improving. This is a direct result of the way they were not socialised and marks them as 'not normal'. It has had huge life long ramifications for them. So nothing in this thread has convinced me that a huge number of dogs can be effectively socialised for households living with families.

Again, IMO companion dogs for households need to be bred and socialised in households.

Not all breeds are the same and not all breeds can or should be socialised the same way that military dogs are.

Same old same old everyone is an expert.

[Crisovar]

So any Breeder who keeps more than the number of dogs that you and others here feel is the appropriate number has dogs that turn out like yours? Some of the best natured dogs I have met have come from large breeders. The saddest rescue I ever had came from a 2 dog household that had litter to pay for an OS trip.

Bad management can occur across the board no matter how many animals are involved.

Look at my post & you'll see that I said socialisation was the key....however many dogs someone has.

And, without socialisation, which prepares dogs to be companions alongside humans & their various lifestyles... breeding dogs is farming.

'Farming' puppies is producing a physical product.

'Raising' puppies is producing animals that will share humans' lives in some capacity, by way of stimulating hard-wired social learning in a variety of contexts.

There's sound, rigorous scientific research on this point.

By following that state-of-the-art knowledge base... the Military Dog Unit at Amberley has developed a superb model for socialising the dogs they breed with.....& the puppies they breed. They know what 'hard-wiring' means & what is the 'critical learning period'.

The description of what they do is precisely how all dogs should be bred & raised (not farmed). Whether a SWF intended to be a lap dog or a Belgian Shepherd intended to walk beside a soldier.

My question of the OP case was, 'How can those 84 dogs be socialised?' In answer, shrieks of silence rent the air.

Go ask the owner of the 84 dogs Mita, no one here KNOWS how his dogs live, or what their daily routine is you are all just assuming. I can't tell you how or if he does it, all I know is what was written here just like everyone else. However many large breeders have for generations managed to raise happy healthy pups sound in mind and body, I have seen it, I have lived with the pups they have bred. If the DOL brains trust doesn't believe it is possible, that's too bad.

Some breeders do actually take what they do pretty bloody seriously and make sure they do the best by the pups they breed. There is no one single correct way, every breeder large or small does things differently, just like we raise our children. Some people have hired help, some have family help, some enlist the help of neighbourhood kids to play with pups.

[oakway]

So any Breeder who keeps more than the number of dogs that you and others here feel is the appropriate number has dogs that turn out like yours? Some of the best natured dogs I have met have come from large breeders. The saddest rescue I ever had came from a 2 dog household that had litter to pay for an OS trip.

Bad management can occur across the board no matter how many animals are involved.

Look at my post & you'll see that I said socialisation was the key....however many dogs someone has.

And, without socialisation, which prepares dogs to be companions alongside humans & their various lifestyles... breeding dogs is farming.

'Farming' puppies is producing a physical product.

'Raising' puppies is producing animals that will share humans' lives in some capacity, by way of stimulating hard-wired social learning in a variety of contexts.

There's sound, rigorous scientific research on this point.

By following that state-of-the-art knowledge base... the Military Dog Unit at Amberley has developed a superb model for socialising the dogs they breed with.....& the puppies they breed. They know what 'hard-wiring' means & what is the 'critical learning period'.

The description of what they do is precisely how all dogs should be bred & raised (not farmed). Whether a SWF intended to be a lap dog or a Belgian Shepherd intended to walk beside a soldier.

My question of the OP case was, 'How can those 84 dogs be socialised?' In answer, shrieks of silence rent the air.

Go ask the owner of the 84 dogs Mita, no one here KNOWS how his dogs live, or what their daily routine is you are all just assuming. I can't tell you how or if he does it, all I know is what was written here just like everyone else. However many large breeders have for generations managed to raise happy healthy pups sound in mind and body, I have seen it, I have lived with the pups they have bred. If the DOL brains trust doesn't believe it is possible, that's too bad.

Some breeders do actually take what they do pretty bloody seriously and make sure they do the best by the pups they breed. There is no one single correct way, every breeder large or small does things differently, just like we raise our children. Some people have hired help, some have family help, some enlist the help of neighbourhood kids to play with pups.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: