toofarnorth Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 I'm thinking if this guy is working in a pet supply store, he's not making much off his breeding business... 84 dogs is a full time job on it's own to look after - and that's just making sure all the poop is cleaned up and they are fed, watered, etc... Even half that number is a full time job to look after. T. I agree with this.....I'd imagine 84 dogs to be a full time job. I would be a bit worried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 I'm thinking if this guy is working in a pet supply store, he's not making much off his breeding business... 84 dogs is a full time job on it's own to look after - and that's just making sure all the poop is cleaned up and they are fed, watered, etc... Even half that number is a full time job to look after. T. I agree with this.....I'd imagine 84 dogs to be a full time job. I would be a bit worried. Guys sometimes have wives and family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmkelpie Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 But I tune back in and yep, the small-mind-from-a-big-place mentality seems to be alive, ripe and well! I find it small minded to judge a country based on a small selection of people I will never judge a country based on a few of its citizens, nor will I ever dislike someone based on their nationality. I prefer to judge people based on who they are as a individual. Regardless of race, colour or creed. Back on topic- I agree with what most people have said, it comes down to how the dogs are treated. Plenty of people have one dog that is shut in the backyard from the day it comes home until the day it dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
espinay2 Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 How many dogs he has is irrelevant and far from enough information to make ANY judgement. Any judgement made on number alone is jumping to big conclusions with very little to go on and IMO is very irresponsible. MUCH more information is needed before any conclusion can be drawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 (edited) But I tune back in and yep, the small-mind-from-a-big-place mentality seems to be alive, ripe and well! I find it small minded to judge a country based on a small selection of people I will never judge a country based on a few of its citizens, nor will I ever dislike someone based on their nationality. I prefer to judge people based on who they are as a individual. Regardless of race, colour or creed. I think I have known Australia and its dog scene and general populace ethos, long enough to make a comparative judgement about the Australian sense of Nationality Vs the individual. You can judge people how you like. (ps: It's norty of me to say, but your "I prefer to judge based on individuality, creed, colour, blah" is so predictably Australian PC, I love it! ) Edited July 31, 2011 by lilli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perth_girl Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 I went into a animal supply store yesterday (doesnt sell live animals) and one of the workers told me he has 84 dogs. After I gave him this look he said 'oh, Im a breeder.....2 different types'. I still think that sounds like a few too many dogs Lol Surely he was exaggerating...right? I was just considering the possibilty that my perceptions of Australia were skewed and I must be a crazy, disgruntled Libertine in love, to not want to call Australia home any more. But I tune back in and yep, the small-mind-from-a-big-place mentality seems to be alive, ripe and well! [btw who cares how many dogs someone has why are you so ready to stick your nose in and judge? Oh that's roight ... it's your moral perogative yeah yeah] If you notice, I didnt make a positive or negative judgement in my OP. I said that to me that sounds like alot of dogs. I am not a breeder, so I honestly dont know if 84 is a 'normal' amount for a regular breeder to have, which is why I asked "Surely he was exaggerating...right?". It was a legitimate question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 (edited) I went into a animal supply store yesterday (doesnt sell live animals) and one of the workers told me he has 84 dogs. After I gave him this look he said 'oh, Im a breeder.....2 different types'. I still think that sounds like a few too many dogs Lol Surely he was exaggerating...right? I was just considering the possibilty that my perceptions of Australia were skewed and I must be a crazy, disgruntled Libertine in love, to not want to call Australia home any more. But I tune back in and yep, the small-mind-from-a-big-place mentality seems to be alive, ripe and well! [btw who cares how many dogs someone has why are you so ready to stick your nose in and judge? Oh that's roight ... it's your moral perogative yeah yeah] If you notice, I didnt make a positive or negative judgement in my OP. I said that to me that sounds like alot of dogs. I am not a breeder, so I honestly dont know if 84 is a 'normal' amount for a regular breeder to have, which is why I asked "Surely he was exaggerating...right?". It was a legitimate question. Australia is a free country, you can ask what you like. Isn't it? Edited July 31, 2011 by lilli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 (edited) I'm thinking if this guy is working in a pet supply store, he's not making much off his breeding business... 84 dogs is a full time job on it's own to look after - and that's just making sure all the poop is cleaned up and they are fed, watered, etc... Even half that number is a full time job to look after. T. I agree with this.....I'd imagine 84 dogs to be a full time job. I would be a bit worried. Guys sometimes have wives and family. Steve stop mucking around! They do not You know they're only posing as family so they can get illegal tax breaks on their puppy farming operation! Edited July 31, 2011 by lilli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 (edited) meh...not worth it... Edited July 31, 2011 by Cat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 (edited) Mita and Poodle Mum and poodlemum have it right - assuming he has 84 dogs he's a commercial dog farmer who is unlikely to socialise his dogs and puppies properly if at all. My Andy is a puppy farm rescue and while improving, he is still frightened of visitors and other dogs (but now warms up much more quickly) - and its a direct result of his lack of socialisation and being caged in the dog farm. He didn't even like grass under his paws and initially behaved on grass like he was on hot coals! Preferred to sleep on boards or concrete in the beginning... IMO you can't possibly socialise that many dogs and puppies properly (or does he let them all into a house two or three times a year??!!)regardless of kennel staff numbers. Companion animals destined for families and houses need to be bred and brought up in families and houses. Not necessarily many of the big kennels may keep many small breed dogs. It's the care and nutrition that is more important than the numbers. What about socialisation? If dogs are to be raised to be companion animals....& to produce puppies destined to be companion animals...socialisation is the key element. That statement is backed by research. How does someone provide socialisation for 84 dogs & whatever puppies they have? Without socialisation, it's farming (no matter how many dogs someone has & what physical care they get)). With socialisation, it's raising dogs/puppies to be companions around people. Small breeds are usually destined to be close companion dogs, which heightens the need for them to be raised in circumstances where both the puppies & the parent dogs are well socialised. Even if he was a legit breeder - that is just far too many dogs. You can't exercise, socialised and work with that many dogs. They would have to spend significant amounts of time in kennels without human contact ... it just isn't healthy. This I have been breeding Standard Poodles for nearly 20 years - could not imagine having so many dogs - if your dogs are not part of your family & the litters personally overseen by you then, in MY opinion, you are a Puppy Farmer Edited July 31, 2011 by westiemum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyosha Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 It was never said that they were companion dogs. Hunt kennels are likely to have that many dogs - just as an example of thinking outside the square. Some pack dogs - working strains of foxhounds and beagles in particular spring to mind - are happier living in big packs than in homes - they are pack dogs not family dogs. Conclusions cannot be drawn from one second hand piece of information. So is it an exaggeration to say you have 84 dogs? Yes it is. No it's not. Or maybe both or either. It's a big wide world and lot's of people live very different lifestyles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Its likely they are being sold as companion animals as thats where the money is... otherwise why so many dogs? People get to choose their lifestyles - caged animals do not. The odds are he's a dog farmer (he's holding down a job in a pet shop so he's unlikey to be mentally ill and hoarding)... It was never said that they were companion dogs. Hunt kennels are likely to have that many dogs - just as an example of thinking outside the square. Some pack dogs - working strains of foxhounds and beagles in particular spring to mind - are happier living in big packs than in homes - they are pack dogs not family dogs. Conclusions cannot be drawn from one second hand piece of information. So is it an exaggeration to say you have 84 dogs? Yes it is. No it's not. Or maybe both or either. It's a big wide world and lot's of people live very different lifestyles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisovar Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Mita and Poodle Mum and poodlemum have it right - assuming he has 84 dogs he's a commercial dog farmer who is unlikely to socialise his dogs and puppies properly if at all. My Andy is a puppy farm rescue and while improving, he is still frightened of visitors and other dogs (but now warms up much more quickly) - and its a direct result of his lack of socialisation and being caged in the dog farm. He didn't even like grass under his paws and initially behaved on grass like he was on hot coals! Preferred to sleep on boards or concrete in the beginning... So any Breeder who keeps more than the number of dogs that you and others here feel is the appropriate number has dogs that turn out like yours? Some of the best natured dogs I have met have come from large breeders. The saddest rescue I ever had came from a 2 dog household that had litter to pay for an OS trip. Bad management can occur across the board no matter how many animals are involved. I was accused of being a puppy farmer because I fed & watered my dogs out of stainless steel bowls and therefore according to the wise had no emotional attachment to them because they didn't eat out of pretty dishes, the BS just goes on and on. The only living creature here with a uterus is a pony so that was pretty amusing. The generalisations and accusations that go on are pretty damn ignorant. People are tarred and feathered just because they don't fit in someone elses square, no proof needed, just whack a label on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Megz- Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Mita and Poodle Mum and poodlemum have it right - assuming he has 84 dogs he's a commercial dog farmer who is unlikely to socialise his dogs and puppies properly if at all. My Andy is a puppy farm rescue and while improving, he is still frightened of visitors and other dogs (but now warms up much more quickly) - and its a direct result of his lack of socialisation and being caged in the dog farm. He didn't even like grass under his paws and initially behaved on grass like he was on hot coals! Preferred to sleep on boards or concrete in the beginning... IMO you can't possibly socialise that many dogs and puppies properly (or does he let them all into a house two or three times a year??!!)regardless of kennel staff numbers. Companion animals destined for families and houses need to be bred and brought up in families and houses. Assuming would be the key word in your post because your LARGE assumption has bought about a whole lot of what ifs that you have no further information to guess at. 84 Dogs = commercial dog farmer with badly socialised dogs Companion animals should only be bought up in family homes? What a load of shit. I speak from personal experience when I say that a person can have a large number of dogs and have the BEST temperaments you could ask for. Not all people with a big number of dogs cage them, they may have kennels but a kennel environment does not instantly equal caged. The large kennel I am very familiar with has kennels at the back of the house, there are 4 large runs that open to approx. .5 - 1 acre each and then a few smaller runs in between (all with undercover and grassed sections) for the smaller dogs or when bitches are in season. These dogs have rock solid temperaments and are not heavily socialised outside of the house, not all are destined for the show ring and more than half have lived their entire life with one family. More than half (I would say more than 3/4's) of these dogs have never had/sired a litter. I would also guess that the average age of these dogs is pushing closer to 8-10 years of age. Tell me again how terrible this is? I know if I was to come back as a dog I'd want to be owned by this terrible, terrible person. Its likely they are being sold as companion animals as thats where the money is... otherwise why so many dogs? People get to choose their lifestyles - caged animals do not. The odds are he's a dog farmer (he's holding down a job in a pet shop so he's unlikey to be mentally ill and hoarding)... It was never said that they were companion dogs. Hunt kennels are likely to have that many dogs - just as an example of thinking outside the square. Some pack dogs - working strains of foxhounds and beagles in particular spring to mind - are happier living in big packs than in homes - they are pack dogs not family dogs. Conclusions cannot be drawn from one second hand piece of information. So is it an exaggeration to say you have 84 dogs? Yes it is. No it's not. Or maybe both or either. It's a big wide world and lot's of people live very different lifestyles. Why so many dogs? For the love of them perhaps westiemum? Again with the "caged animal" assumption God these threads crack me up, oh because the odds (from where?) say he's likely to be a dog farmer he just is? Alyosha - I love seeing photos of the big Foxhound/Beagle packs, just gorgeous!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Well they're not exactly "family pets" but it doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't well looked after, well adjusted and stimulated. Working kennels such as hunt kennel, customs, guide dogs etc have around that number and the dogs are all well adjusted, well looked after and happy. Of course, it is also possible that this person is a puppy farmer. We don't know all the facts so can't really judge... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 I was accused of being a puppy farmer because I fed & watered my dogs out of stainless steel bowls and therefore according to the wise had no emotional attachment to them because they didn't eat out of pretty dishes, the BS just goes on and on. The only living creature here with a uterus is a pony so that was pretty amusing. The generalisations and accusations that go on are pretty damn ignorant. People are tarred and feathered just because they don't fit in someone elses square, no proof needed, just whack a label on them. Goodness, how ridiculous is that! I only have three dogs and they eat and drink from stainless steel dishes, mainly because (for me) they're easier to keep clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Crisovar I'm sorry you were accused of being a dog farmer - plainly ridiculous judged on dog dishes! (I use SS too!) But you seem to have taken this very personally. And yes bad management can happen regardless of numbers. But IMO this is a discussion about what is likely to be the case with someone working in a pet shop who says he has 84 dogs and appears to be proud of it according to the OPs post... DOL has discussed this topic at length over the years and the clear conclusion over the years is that mass produced companion puppies from commercial operations who do not socialise their puppies (and who's primary motivation is profit - its why they have so many in the first place!) are not companion animal breeders but are breeding 'stock' in the farm sense or 'product' for sale. Given extensive discussion and evidence over the years on the characteristics of dog farms, (See www.wheredopuppiescomefrom.com.au) it is highly likely that this man with 84 dogs does not socialise that many dogs and is probably in it for profit. Therefore, commercial dog farmer. You're right - its not about numbers - until at a certain point this many companion animals become 'stock', living in 'herds' so to speak - and take on those characteristics in behaviour and become unsuitable as companion animals for households IMO. And its generally agreed that that number, whatever it is, is excess of the number that can be reasonably socialised (and cared for) by a household (not a farm). By the time we are talking about 84 dogs, kennel staff or not, household companion training and socialisation become an issue if not impossible. 84 is a lot of dogs in anyone's book and far more than you would see on most farms, properties and cattle stations, so this is not about ignorant 'tar and feathering - rathre a discussion on what is likely to be the case here and its a companion animal welfare issue and should be discussed. And again I'm sorry you were called a puppy farmer - stainless steel dishes are not one of the characterisics! Happy to agree to disagree. Mita and Poodle Mum and poodlemum have it right - assuming he has 84 dogs he's a commercial dog farmer who is unlikely to socialise his dogs and puppies properly if at all. My Andy is a puppy farm rescue and while improving, he is still frightened of visitors and other dogs (but now warms up much more quickly) - and its a direct result of his lack of socialisation and being caged in the dog farm. He didn't even like grass under his paws and initially behaved on grass like he was on hot coals! Preferred to sleep on boards or concrete in the beginning... So any Breeder who keeps more than the number of dogs that you and others here feel is the appropriate number has dogs that turn out like yours? Some of the best natured dogs I have met have come from large breeders. The saddest rescue I ever had came from a 2 dog household that had litter to pay for an OS trip. Bad management can occur across the board no matter how many animals are involved. I was accused of being a puppy farmer because I fed & watered my dogs out of stainless steel bowls and therefore according to the wise had no emotional attachment to them because they didn't eat out of pretty dishes, the BS just goes on and on. The only living creature here with a uterus is a pony so that was pretty amusing. The generalisations and accusations that go on are pretty damn ignorant. People are tarred and feathered just because they don't fit in someone elses square, no proof needed, just whack a label on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Goodness, how ridiculous is that! I only have three dogs and they eat and drink from stainless steel dishes, mainly because (for me) they're easier to keep clean. Agreed Ellie! I have three dogs too and they all eat out of stainless steel for hygiene reasons (mind you I had to teach Andy to eat out of a bowl too! LOL!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♥Bruno♥ Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 84 dogs does sound like a hell of a lot though. If he was a legitimate reputable breeder, don't they aim for quality over quantity? (I'm not a breeder, thats just an assumption) Keeping and maintaining 84 dogs would require a lot of work, and more money than a job at a pet shop could supply you with. Not saying he is a puppy farmer, but you know what they say - if it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck, it's probably a duck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzy82 Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Mita and Poodle Mum and poodlemum have it right - assuming he has 84 dogs he's a commercial dog farmer who is unlikely to socialise his dogs and puppies properly if at all. My Andy is a puppy farm rescue and while improving, he is still frightened of visitors and other dogs (but now warms up much more quickly) - and its a direct result of his lack of socialisation and being caged in the dog farm. He didn't even like grass under his paws and initially behaved on grass like he was on hot coals! Preferred to sleep on boards or concrete in the beginning... IMO you can't possibly socialise that many dogs and puppies properly (or does he let them all into a house two or three times a year??!!)regardless of kennel staff numbers. Companion animals destined for families and houses need to be bred and brought up in families and houses. This. There is no way I would buy a puppy that was raised in a kennel, no matter how many times a day they were visited by kennel staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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