mini girl Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Something I've been meaning to put out for a little while now - had the very upsetting loss of my litter by a girl on her first litter - she only carried them 50 days so lost them all. It was so distressing and was very comforted by all the kind replies from breeders on this forum. This happened in April and my girl recovered after about 3 weeks and is now her wonderful bouncy self again and I am so hoping that I may get a litter from her when she next comes into season. Took her to very good dog breeding vets and one of the questions was did she have any stress- well one of my other girls was very dominent to her - she had had pups but all left home about 2 weeks prior to the other girls pups being aborted but she sometimes became very aggresive to the pregnant girl and the pregnant girl was very afraid of her - this has improved a lot now but here (finally) is the question - do you think that fear and perhaps an attack could bring on the early birth - we were out the evening the pups were aborted came home about 9-30pm and the pups started coming at 11 pm - so we will never know if anything happend between the dogs while we were out. We are going down the road of progesterone blood tests next time and have managed to get the dominent dog to improve her ways - she is just beautiful in every other way just wants to be dominent over the one who lost her pups - but am thinking maybe we should let the dominent girl stay with friends if all goes to plan and my other girl does get pregnant again for at least the last 3 weeks of the pregnancy. Has anyone every had a case like this - we only have 4 dogs at home so they are all inside pets. The little girl who lost her pups has a very sweet and gentle disposition but is a bit of a sooky mummy's girl and loves attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr_inoz Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 very interested in hearing replies. My girl reabsorbed a litter at the start of the year for no apparent reason (pregnant and 6.5 weeks, still fat at 7.5weeks, not fat and no puppies at 8.5 weeks). Another more dominant bitch in the house at the time - very very similar situation to the original post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I have litter knowledge of this in dogs but I know from all the wildlife docs I have watched the alpha female controls the other females reproduction. I recall David Attenborough, I think, stating that if a female sneaks off and gets preggers she can be killed by the alpha female. A friend of mine years ago lets her girls out fora run, probably crated during the day. When she did not return she went to look for her and found her dead and mangaled by the others. Cannot recall how far preg and thsi was cavs. Also the alpha female will kill the offspring if born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr_inoz Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I have litter knowledge of this in dogs but I know from all the wildlife docs I have watched the alpha female controls the other females reproduction. I recall David Attenborough, I think, stating that if a female sneaks off and gets preggers she can be killed by the alpha female. A friend of mine years ago lets her girls out fora run, probably crated during the day. When she did not return she went to look for her and found her dead and mangaled by the others. Cannot recall how far preg and thsi was cavs. Also the alpha female will kill the offspring if born. just found this article - an interesting read.... http://www.wolfhouse.dk/articles/sociobiologyofreproduction.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missymoo Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Wow great article! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christina Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 (edited) The article was an interesting read but dogs in their own environment may act differently to the ones studied. Instinct/wild has almost gone in some breeds. I really doubt that stress in a family of pet dogs where there is some mild rivalry (as in not having actual fights) would cause abortion. A bad attack could but you would see some evidence of this if it had occurred when you were out. Stressed dogs do give birth to pups, badly treated dogs, puppy farm dogs, stray dogs etc. Abortion is natures way of saying these pups should not be born. I assume your vet has checked for any physical reasons & infection ? When cats do this, which seems to be more frequently than dogs, it is common for the breeder to put the cat on a course of antibiotics just before mating them & then mating when it is complete. Dogs ? My girls do get stressed when one has pups & the others are due which is why I seperate into different rooms for the birth & when they have pups. Best friends usually I had them together in a room once with pups & never again even though they were on opposite sides of the room. Now it is out of sight & sound as they want each others pups. Next time maybe put them is different rooms if you are going out & complete seperation about 10 days before birth but I would still be looking for other reasons. Good luck next time. ETA many inexperienced people think a dog won't mate its own mother. Of course it will & often does. I would not let them together & chance it, a 20 second slip mating can result in pups. So I disagree with that part of the article. Edited July 28, 2011 by Christina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini girl Posted July 29, 2011 Author Share Posted July 29, 2011 Thanks Christina - when you do think of some of the absolutley dreadful situations full terms pups are still born in it does seem somewhat overthetop that a bit of dominence from another female would or could cause this - also my vet (not a reproduction vet) did say if it was a low level virus and she seems just fine now - that she would have built up antibodies to it for the next litter - anyway I'll check this out before she comes into season just in case and see if antibiotics are worth giving her. Will also do the blood tests to watch progesterone levels and may let my other girl have a 10 or so day holiday - just to be on the safe side - also I said to my husband over the last 10 or so days we would not leave her alone - one of us always with her - think we can forgo a social life for a couple of weeks!!! If all this does not help well she can just retire as my beautiful pet - but doesn't it pull on your heartstrings when you remember it - the very short time she had her puppies she showed what a lovely mother she will be - I was so worried when the dominant girl had a litter this month that she may have heard the pups and started fretting again - but not so she was a little curious but thats all - the dominent girl got out of the box and gave her a serve once only. Hope my poodles don't have too much wolf left in them - but the article is as you all say so interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Baggins Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 I have litter knowledge of this in dogs but I know from all the wildlife docs I have watched the alpha female controls the other females reproduction. I recall David Attenborough, I think, stating that if a female sneaks off and gets preggers she can be killed by the alpha female. A friend of mine years ago lets her girls out fora run, probably crated during the day. When she did not return she went to look for her and found her dead and mangaled by the others. Cannot recall how far preg and thsi was cavs. Also the alpha female will kill the offspring if born. just found this article - an interesting read.... http://www.wolfhouse.dk/articles/sociobiologyofreproduction.php Great article. :thumbsup: KLoved this bit. "the mothers who enforce the incest avoidance; the sons do not seem to possess any such restrictions within themselves." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwaY Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 reabsorbed Bitches absorb puppies they don't reabsorb them - you can't reabsorb something that is already gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJean Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) Something I've been meaning to put out for a little while now - had the very upsetting loss of my litter by a girl on her first litter - she only carried them 50 days so lost them all. It was so distressing and was very comforted by all the kind replies from breeders on this forum. This happened in April and my girl recovered after about 3 weeks and is now her wonderful bouncy self again and I am so hoping that I may get a litter from her when she next comes into season. Took her to very good dog breeding vets and one of the questions was did she have any stress- well one of my other girls was very dominent to her - she had had pups but all left home about 2 weeks prior to the other girls pups being aborted but she sometimes became very aggresive to the pregnant girl and the pregnant girl was very afraid of her - this has improved a lot now but here (finally) is the question - do you think that fear and perhaps an attack could bring on the early birth - we were out the evening the pups were aborted came home about 9-30pm and the pups started coming at 11 pm - so we will never know if anything happend between the dogs while we were out. We are going down the road of progesterone blood tests next time and have managed to get the dominent dog to improve her ways - she is just beautiful in every other way just wants to be dominent over the one who lost her pups - but am thinking maybe we should let the dominent girl stay with friends if all goes to plan and my other girl does get pregnant again for at least the last 3 weeks of the pregnancy. Has anyone every had a case like this - we only have 4 dogs at home so they are all inside pets. The little girl who lost her pups has a very sweet and gentle disposition but is a bit of a sooky mummy's girl and loves attention. If the dominant dogs behaviour was going to exert any influence over the other bitches, I think it would happen earlier ie the other bitches would not have a season while in the presence of the dominant female. I don't know what breed you have, but I wonder how strong this instinct breeding behaviour would be in breeds whose breeding selection has been controlled by humans in most aspects Edited July 29, 2011 by lilli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr_inoz Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 (edited) reabsorbed Bitches absorb puppies they don't reabsorb them - you can't reabsorb something that is already gone. thanks - although two vets talk to me about "reabsorbtion" as do a number of vet articles on the subject, so sorry for my mistake. seems it is also a mistake of qualified vets as well. Edited July 29, 2011 by jr_inoz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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