Need Help With The Stand Command.

[Naomi]

I've made a couple of posts about this which have gone un-noticed so now it deserves it's own thread. :D

Archie and I are new to clicker training and I am using it to try and teach him 'stand'.

I really need him to know this for his obedience grading. He will need to know a 'stand-stay' but he can't even get a solid stand yet.

We are also expected to use them for heeling. Up until now, when we have come to a stop in heeling we having been asking the pups to sit. We did that for so long that it is natural for him to sit when we stop, but he needs to stand at my side.

I've tried using the instructors method of using the signal of running my hand across his face and down his side but this is more of a distraction than a helpful tool. It works for our friend and their pup. But I guess different dogs need different methods.

At the moment I am using food as a lure to get him to stand and when his bum pops up I click and treat.

I've been doing this a lot and I feel like nothing is happening. Saying the command without the lure isn't working yet.

And if I wait for him to offer the behaviour, he just sits there and stares at me. It's like he think it's just one big treat fest. He isn't connecting the standing up with the reward. Usually he is really fast to make the connection with new commands.

Also, when I'm luring him into a stand, as soon as he gets the treat his bum is on the ground again. I don't know how to get him to stay standing without him moving anywhere.

I am desperate for some help and eager to teach him. He is eager to learn too! He loves training. I just feel like I'm missing something here?

[PAX]

If you youtube search kick back stand, you should get lots of ideas:)

[stonecutter]

Naomi - I think it's been 4 weeks of constantly praising and treating stand and ignoring sit (Ziva gets pats for Sit but treats for Stand) to have a hand signal that works and she stands for more than a micro second.

I slowly increased the time from click/marker word to treat and also taught her to "watch" - that is, look at the treat. With every kibble meal we train walking/heeling, then standing - sometimes she puts her butt down, but if I'm quick enough with heel, then stop moving, then command "stand", then treat really quickly (though working on leaving it longer until treat).

We're learning this for conformation rather than obedience but I assume the principles would be the same.

[Weasels]

I have a similar problem

I use the hand signal of pulling back my hand, palm up and open, back towards me. They stand up, but put their nose in my palm and won't stay standing. They seem to think the objective is nose in hand instead. They are also pretty quick with most things but stand seems to be a stumbling block for them.

I will be watching for suggestions too!

[Ons]

first up I am no expert butI had the same problem with my Onslow who would sit everytime I stop.

So you have to know a few seconds in advance that you are about to stand, put the lead in the right hand, then stop say stand and at the same time with an open palm facing towards the dog run your hand from the left of his nose to around his left side and hold him up on the tummy side up near his hind legs. I would then say "stand" again. I wish I could demonstrate it to you but this is what has worked for my Onslow and now I just do the command near the nose and he stands

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I failed to graduate grade two because of the confusion me and the dog had about automatic sit, a stand, and footwork. Sigh.

We got it the next time but sheesh.

The way I taught "Stand" was to make the signal and verbal command just before or as I stopped, and then use the same hand that signalled to catch her under the flank to stop the auto sit on stop. If I was late with the signal+command - she'd be sat when I stopped.

For the stay/hold stand, I'd start next to her and catch her if she went to sit without a cue, and work on duration very slowly and reward with treats, and as she got stronger with it, I'd move to directly in front of her (leading with the foot on the opposite side - as for a stay), and then reward lots for holding that and then work on distance.

I found the best place for working on duration of stay in any chosen position - is in front of her dinner. But start with short durations - make it as easy as possible for your dog to get what you want right.

[Tassie]

I lure the stand - from in front at first, and then at the side. I use a verbal marker (cos I'm usually too klutzy to manage the clicker and the lead (if I'm using one, sa at club, and the treats) but youi could equally use a clicker. My fingers are together, palm facing the dog, treat in extended fingers. That will be the same at the side - I use a left hand signal - my hand stops where the dog's nose should stop.

Key to the whole thing in my experience is where your hand is in relation to the dog's head - if your hand comes up too much, dog will sit, as he should. If it goes down, dog will (correctly) drop. Stand - the spine needs to be level - parallel to the ground, and the head is neutral to the spine - neither up nore down.

When I first teach it to puppies, I only expect a 4 on the floor spine parallel to the ground - and only for a nano second - just to differentiate it from the other positions. Then I release the pup with my release word, then start again. Pretty sooon you can get rid of the lure, and do multiple mark and rewards while the pup stays in the sstand position. Again, I'll work this from in front, and also at the side (but by itself - not as part of a heel pattern - that comes way later.)

Once pup gets the idea, you can start playing the steady feet game, which you'll find described in some threads in this forum. (Thank you WA gurus :D .)

Naomi if your grading is this weekend, as I think it might be, you might not get it in time for that - but don't sweat it. It's sometimes good for a dog not to go up the classes too quickly. Gives you time to consolidate and polish, and it pays off later on.

[dee lee]

At obedience class I was taught to train stand by verbal command, signalling (swiping my hand across her face when we stopped at heel), then quickly placing my hand under her tummy/leg so she was unable to sit. Lots of praise. Took a few gos but she got it.

Do you groom your dog standing? My dog's stand is fantastic now after making her Stand (up on a bench) while I groom her.

It's constant reinforcement.

[Naomi]

If you youtube search kick back stand, you should get lots of ideas:)

Interesting method! This could work. I've always been told not to force the behavior, but maybe because Archie isn't offering the behaviour himself this could help him along. It would stop him moving forward too. Which is what he is doing at the moment. Has this worked for your dogs?

...with an open palm facing towards the dog run your hand from the left of his nose to around his left side and hold him up on the tummy side up near his hind legs...

This is the way we have been taught at obedience. It works great for my best friend and her Rotti puppy but for some reason it is a huge distraction for Archie. He follows the hand around with his head and then ends up sitting to try and get his nose closer to my hand at his side.

...Naomi if your grading is this weekend, as I think it might be, you might not get it in time for that - but don't sweat it. It's sometimes good for a dog not to go up the classes too quickly. Gives you time to consolidate and polish, and it pays off later on.

Thanks Tassie! I'll keep in mind my hand signal and if it is parallel to the spine.

There is a grading this weekend, but we have missed too many lessons (no choice of our own) for me to feel confident in this weekends grading. I am going to work extra hard to polish it up for next grading. My friend is attending the grading this weekend so I might go along and see how it all works.

Thanks everybody for all the advice. I will keep you updated with what works. :D

[Tassie]

Forgot to say the kickback stand is a great thing to have in your tool box anyway - so well worth playing round with. :D

The hand down the side thing is how the stand was originally taught, but for body sensitive dogs, I think other methods work better

Good idea to go along and watch the grading this weekend anyway. I'll miss yet another grading - showing this weekend - think we'll be in grade 3 forever - not a problem really, as we mainly go to club for working around distractions. But all thing being equal I should be at ES the first 2 weeks in August - with my Black/White BC boy (who has a big personal space ) - we should try to catch up with each other. :D

[fuzzy82]

The problem is that you're still luring it, which means he's not thinking about what he's doing, he's thinking about the food. I have found it incredibly difficult to go from luring to adding the cue to fading the handsignal. It takes AGES.

You would be better off capturing or shaping it. With capturing, you just watch him out of the corner of your eye and click whenever he's standing around. Soon enough he should offer you a stand whenever you look at him, and then you add the cue. That way there is never any forward movement in the stand, and no handsignal to have to fade out.

For shaping, just have him in a down or a sit, and wait it out. When he stand up, click and put the treat in his mouth. Be close enough that he can't start moving forward before he gets the treat.

[Naomi]

Tassie, I'm a bit new to all this. What does ES stand for? :D

Fuzzy82, Thankyou! Great advice!! I will try my hardest to capture the behavior as much as possible.

In the last few hours we've attemped the kick back stand. I think it is actually working! He is definitely doing it more reliably. Too early to tell for sure though.

[Tassie]

Yay for getting somewhere with the kick back - it's definitely worth doing, and does help both of you to get into a new space.

Sorry - ES - Eastern Shore - I'm assuming you ended up going to dog club over there at Bellerive - maybe I was wrong. When I'm not competing with my dogs in their various sports, I go to class there and do some obedience and some Rally O in the morning, and then go and teach puppy class on the Domain.

[Naomi]

Of course! Yes I ended up there. My best friend and I both take our pups there most Sunday mornings. If you see me there you should introduce yourself.

Watching my friend and his pup do the grading was super helpful. They got perfect marks! A video is here if you're interested: >link<

I feel that I really have something to work towards now. And the instructor we currently have is the best yet! So I'm quite positive about it all.

Off topic - What doggie sports are available in Tassie?

[Tassie]

It's great that you're enjoying classes. I was there on Sunday 10-11 - ended up training my B/W BC Rory in Grade 4. I should be there again next Sunday - will keep an eye ouit for you - or you can for me.

At the moment clubs are offering obedience trials, agility trials (Tas Dog in Launceston and Hobart Dog Training Club on the Domain, tracking trials - Tas Dog and Hobart - and the Gundog Club has one this year, and mock Rally O trials. Tas Dog, Ulverstone and Hobart - hopefully they won't be mock trials next year but real ones, if the rules are approved.

With a herding breed, herding training and trials are also available. Contact is the Working Dog Club of Tas I think.