Crate Training A Kelpie

[Bundyburger]

OH mentioned to me tonight that we(or more I) will need to start crate training our kelpie as it's highly likely that we'll be moving interstate, complete with the dogs. This is tricky because he has a fear of small, enclosed spaces that he can't get out of, well as long as they look like cages or crates anyway.... He was in an accident a few years ago when he broke his harness and collar and jumped out of the ute (hence hating cars), and spent a lot of time in cages at the vet with surgeries and things. They refused to put him in a cage when he was there a few months ago for a tumour removal because they knew he wouldn't cope. He completely flips out and will fear bite (so i've been told), and obviously this is something we'd like to avoid if he has to go on the plane, so we figured crate training will help him feel safe. Plus their sleeping arrangements are going to be different if we go, so if he can be trained to sleep in a crate it'll make things a lot easier for us as we won't have too much freedom to decide where they go to sleep.

We have a crate for Bundy already and Diesel has curled up asleep in it while it was open once and walked around in it twice, in two years.... On both occasions there was no prompting from us, we just saw him in there. As soon as we moved, even if it was away from him, he would fly out and run away from us (which he does when he thinks something he won't like is going to happen, like being locked in). He gets no response when he behaves like that, cos it's not necessary and an extreme reaction from him, so it's not an attention thing, he just snaps...Tonight when he snuck in, he was looking for biscuit scraps B might have left behind but as soon as I told him he was a good and clever boy (without moving near him) he bolted out and his pupils were dilated and he went all stressy.

Bundy came crate trained, and he loves his crate so I never had a problem there, so I don't know how I can get Diesel comfortable and happy to be crated. He is the same size as Bundy, but I feel like he may be more comfortable in the next size up as it seems to be too small for him, but I'm not sure. His fear level is incredibly high, and he reacts much like he did when he wouldn't get n the car(fixed that by buying a new car lol) he will freeze and stop moving, his pupils dilate and if pushed he'll start to shake and pant so I'm really stuck on how I can 'convince' him that it's good and he wants to go in there. He will hunker down low, and not come near you if you hold a bikkie near the crate and call him.. he is getting better, some days he'll actually come over and be 1m away, but ultimately he is still terrified of it if he thinks he has to go in it.

I'm wondering whether it could be worth buying the crate games dvd and giving that a go? Or is it likely to cause him more stress that way seeing as he doesn't want to go in at all?

I am doing some basic obedience with him at the moment, and his drive is so high, he's so much fun. Would I possibly be best trying to incorporate the crate into our obedience sessions, to see if that makes a difference? I'm thinking he may be so focused on doing the right thing as he's in drive that he'll forget it's so scary and confined. He's also got basic clicker training too...

Obviously I want to make it his nice safe haven and have him relaxed and happy to be in there. I will have approx 8-12 weeks I think to get him sorted, maybe longer. We love this boy to pieces, and don't want to leave him behind with the inlaws if it all, so it's important we get him comfortable and safe in the crate, however if it can't be done to our satisfaction, then he'll stay behind.

So give me your best ideas please people!

[Nekhbet]

if you have some spare time and dont mind travelling to Geelong bring him to my place, he can come learn from all of mine which are crate trained.

He also needs help in order to overcome that fear he has. It's a bit of a hump but he can be taught a crate is a wonderful safe place.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Hi Bundyburger

I'm not sure the crate games dvd will solve the fear of the crate problem, you might need to work on the fear first. I would use similar techniques to what I would if I wanted to teach my dog to accept a dremmel for nail trimming.

Ie what does kelpie love, ideally on the food lines?

And have you got kelpie his own crate.

So start by feeding as close to the crate as he will accept a treat. Keep the door pinned open until he's happy about being in there. And then you can follow the crate games DVD instructions - which starts with keeping the dog in the crate with the door shut until it can show some impulse control for which it gets heaps of the bestest yummiest treats, but if the dog is too stressed about being in the crate to take a treat - it's going to take a very long time to get to the point where you could let the dog out to reward going back in... took my dog about 20 minutes to get to that point the first time.

Eventually you want to feed your dog all his main meals and treats like dried beef chews or bones etc, in the crate. So he associates the crate with really good things.

I can confuse the hell out of my dog - because the crates I have are so big, I can climb in too and she follows me in. And I try not to get cramp from laughing. We had three dogs in the soft one last night. Very funny.

If I have promite on toast for breakfast, I have to make an extra slice for the dog and we play in and out the crate games with toast for reward for in and for coming out and going in and doing a sit or a drop or a sit in the crate and then coming out and doing the same... And then I can do same with door shut then open the door and call her out and go back in... and slowly build duration with the door shut, and then with me walking away with the door shut etc. And be quick so the dog doesn't start barking before you open the door - because if dog starts barking - you cannot let out until it stops and that might take a while. If you let out when he's barking - a dog may bark continuously in the crate because that's what he thinks it takes to get out.

But first you have to get your dog comfy about being near the crate.

And if you run out of time, you may have to discuss with vet - a knockout drug for the duration and crate that the dog cannot see out of, or get his teeth into - like the ones that they use to transport zoo animals. Or plan an epic road trip instead of the plane ride.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[Cosmolo]

Given his prior bad experience, i don't think its worth guessing as to how to get started. I had a client recently with a dog who was petrified of enclosed spaces and it was amazing how quickly she came along once we started working with her.

[corvus]

I'm currently crate training a hare, who is naturally fearful of enclosed spaces. He has a very powerful need for escape routes. I've been writing about it on my blog, linked below in my siggy. The lastest post has a video and everything. ;) What I've been doing with the hare is very time consuming, but he's a hare. Every step has to be very, very tiny and be repeated until he's profoundly comfortable with it. I've been going for 9 months and only this week decided it might be time to add the crate into training. It's just been a whole world of desensitisation. And more recently I managed to squeeze in some counter-conditioning. That took months of preparation. Anyway, I would expect it to go a hell of a lot faster with a dog. If he's truly terrified, I'd stick to stacks of desensitisation. A good understanding and subtle use of R- can be extremely useful in these circumstances to start out.

[Vickie]

I would be taking Nehkbet up on her very generous offer.

It's likely that the emotional response you may (understandably) have to this issue will make it harder, so getting an experienced 3rd party to help seems like a great idea

I recently took in a dog for training who had a number of fear issues. It was amazing to see her transform from a totally shut down & fearful dog into a confident happy one who was eager to learn & train. I think coming into a pack of normal dogs was a big part of the progress we made. Her owner is an excellent trainer but found it hard to separate the history from the dog she had in front of her. It is much easier to be objective when it's not your dog.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Vickie

[Nekhbet]

Corvus why would you crate train a hare? What are you trying to prove with that poor creature just let it go back to where it came from to enjoy a life as a hare not as an experiment. I'm sorry I find your blog and video of that poor hare quite distressing actually.

[Bundyburger]

Nek that's a lovely offer but he's also DA(which is being worked on) so that and the fact he can get distressed at going in the car would probably be a bit much. I will bear it in mind in case I get stuck. Cosmolo, methinks you might have to come see us to help once I've bought his crate to have a session with him again.. I'm hoping it all gets confirmed ASAP so I know what time frame I have. As we only thought about it yesterday he's not got his own crate but he will have before I start work with him.

[corvus]

Behaviour modification is all relative. I started crate training Kit because I was worried about what would happen if I ever needed to get him out quickly, like if there was a fire. As with everything in behaviour, the key to assessing the success of a modification program is in objective observations. For example, Kit now spends more time in the open, his flight distance is down, his recovery time is down considerably, and his fearful reactions are generally less intense. He orients to me more often, I get to see his cute engaging ears a LOT more , and we are constantly breaking new ground on what he will sit still through and what he will let me touch. These are all things I can measure objectively, with the possible exception of intensity in fearful behaviour, although I can break that down into observable behaviours and variables such as speed. That way I can't kid myself about the effects of the training and I can be confident I am making headway AND minding the animal's welfare, regardless of how distressed an outside observer may be. ;) This goes for dogs as well. If we take note of things like distance and distractions and speed and behavioural indicators of emotional state and make sure we are getting more of the ones we want and less of the ones we don't want, we can't go too far wrong. It also goes a long way towards tweaking our training to be more effective.

With this dog, for example, I would be looking for body posture, glancing away, licking lips, low tail, paw lifts, stiffness, where the dog is looking, how many times they shift their focus, where their centre of gravity is from moment to moment, and how quickly they move in each direction. And paying a lot of attention to the distance any of those things kick in. Just off the top of my head. That covers us for both effectiveness of the training and the dog's emotional state.

[poodlefan]

No offence Corvus but the OP probably doesn't have nine months or more to work on this.

[Bundyburger]

Oh and an epic car trip is on the cards but circumstances may not allow it and he needs to be crate trained before he goes for bed, so Im needing to cover all based. We want the least stress for him, even if it means calling it quits and leaving him home. We have to try first

[Kavik]

OK this is going to sound really obvious but have you tried throwing treats in the crate and just leaving him be to see if he will go in there and get them? Then maybe put his dinner in there. Leave the door opened. Don't say anything to him, don't watch him too much, just be casual about it?

ETA: Obviously have the other dog somewhere else so no chance of resource guarding or interference.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Kavik

[perfect partners]

Corvus why would you crate train a hare? What are you trying to prove with that poor creature just let it go back to where it came from to enjoy a life as a hare not as an experiment. I'm sorry I find your blog and video of that poor hare quite distressing actually.

I have often had similar thoughts when reading corvus' posts. Why would you put a wild animal through all that stress just for your own amusement/interest/ego??? I think it is cruel.

[persephone]

Corvus why would you crate train a hare? What are you trying to prove with that poor creature just let it go back to where it came from to enjoy a life as a hare not as an experiment. I'm sorry I find your blog and video of that poor hare quite distressing actually.

I have often had similar thoughts when reading corvus' posts. Why would you put a wild animal through all that stress just for your own amusement/interest/ego??? I think it is cruel.

I wish I hadn't clicked .

[Inevitablue]

Corvus why would you crate train a hare? What are you trying to prove with that poor creature just let it go back to where it came from to enjoy a life as a hare not as an experiment. I'm sorry I find your blog and video of that poor hare quite distressing actually.

I have often had similar thoughts when reading corvus' posts. Why would you put a wild animal through all that stress just for your own amusement/interest/ego??? I think it is cruel.

I think because when it's under the veil of 'academic' it's ok, but if we are talking about someone with decades of experience (through trial and error) of training dogs then it's considered uneducated and misinformed

[Bundyburger]

Can you take the hare stuff elsewhere please guys, its not going to help me with my dog ;)

[Dxenion]

We have the crate games DVD and I love it. The part I think would be most relevant here is towards the end of the DVD where Susan demonstrates with clicker training how to get a dog to go willingly into a crate designed for a dog half it's size. This dog is clearly very cramped in there but continually offering to go in to get the click/ treat. She did this demo to show how to get a scared dog to go into the crate on its own, hands free just with the power of clicker training and I think it only took a couple of sessions (from memory). Once the dog is happily going in, then you start basic crate games.

If you are able to get the dvd, I think it would be well worth the look, otherwise PM me and I can loan you our copy. Option 3 is I can try and explain here the steps she used in the video.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Dxenion

[Kajtek]

I'm currently crate training a hare, who is naturally fearful of enclosed spaces. He has a very powerful need for escape routes. I've been writing about it on my blog, linked below in my siggy. The lastest post has a video and everything. ;) What I've been doing with the hare is very time consuming, but he's a hare. Every step has to be very, very tiny and be repeated until he's profoundly comfortable with it. I've been going for 9 months and only this week decided it might be time to add the crate into training. It's just been a whole world of desensitisation. And more recently I managed to squeeze in some counter-conditioning. That took months of preparation. Anyway, I would expect it to go a hell of a lot faster with a dog. If he's truly terrified, I'd stick to stacks of desensitisation. A good understanding and subtle use of R- can be extremely useful in these circumstances to start out.

Corvus, your hare training blog is one of the most interesting reads on behaviour. Congrats

Bundyburger, have a read - you might change your mind.

Edited July 22, 2011 by HonBun

[Inevitablue]

OK this is going to sound really obvious but have you tried throwing treats in the crate and just leaving him be to see if he will go in there and get them? Then maybe put his dinner in there. Leave the door opened. Don't say anything to him, don't watch him too much, just be casual about it?

ETA: Obviously have the other dog somewhere else so no chance of resource guarding or interference.

I don't think you can go wrong at least trying the above. Yummy BBQ chicken thrown near, in doorway, then in the middle of the crate. Door left open the whole time. When thats happening try tying a really yummy treat to the back of the cage so when Kelpie enters the crate he is so fixated on getting the treat he relaxes about the four walls around him.

Crates used to mean horrible confinement, now they mean the BEST treats ever.

[megan_]

I have a dog who was terrified of the crate, she now loves "crate time".

This is the condensed version of what I did:

i) I put the crate up, out of the way. I didn't make a fuss at all. I left it there for a week or so, just so that it blended in and became nothing (she used to be scared of anything signigicant being introduced into the house. I got them a new bed and she wouldn't come into the room....).

ii) I then started putting yummy food into the crate and letting her get it. I didn't make a fuss at all (disn't call her etc) and didn't force her to stay in there.

iii) I also put one of her beds in there and found her having a little nap there.

iv) I then started feeding her in the crate and closing the door. I kept close by to release her before she become distressed. Eventually I started leaving her in there for 1 second after she had finished, 3 seconds, 1 minute etc. I then added the cue "crate time".

v) Now I say "crate time" and she rushes to her crate.

If your dog is very fearful I think the key is to take things veeery slowly. Often we see progress and want to get tot he end goal to quickly and then things unravel.