Difference In Herding Breeds For Dog Sports

[aussielover]

I'd be interested in opinions in the main differences (in temperament, training/exercise needs and working style mainly) between the following herding dogs that are all successful at the highest levels of dog sports:

Border Collie

Kelpie

Koolie

Aussie shep

When choosing a potential sport dog out of these 4, how would you go about it?

Is it a matter of looks and then chossing a suitable puppy within the breed you like the look of? what would suit your ability and trianing style? etc

[wuffles]

I find all four breeds quite different in temperament and I'm sure that anyone who had spent time with each breed would agree.

I'd choose the one whose personality traits appealed to me most whether that be to live with or as sports dogs. I like the clowns, the jokers, the quirky ones, which is why I have an Aussie.

[Jumabaar]

I also agree- they are worlds apart in temperament.

They learn differently, train differently. Have different personalities and quirky traits.Kelpies are thinkers so will work differently to a dog that has been bred to work under more direction. But even then there are great variations.

I would seriously suggest spending time with them all. I am guessing you want a competitive dog at agility, but you still have to live with them the rest of the time. I would not be choosing your next sports dog on aesthetics, rather attend trials and look at the style the dogs competing have, then go to training and see what they are like there. Look at the lines that are actually doing what you want to do in the breed you like and go from there.

I think need to stop and really do some breed research before you go any further. Asking if aesthetics is one of the only decisions to make about narrowing the list down shows you have not done enough of this.

Edited July 19, 2011 by ~Woofen~

[koalathebear]

I'd choose the one whose personality traits appealed to me most whether that be to live with or as sports dogs. I like the clowns, the jokers, the quirky ones, which is why I have an Aussie.

Something's gone wrong with Hoover. I think he thinks he's an Australian Shepherd.

[wuffles]

I'd choose the one whose personality traits appealed to me most whether that be to live with or as sports dogs. I like the clowns, the jokers, the quirky ones, which is why I have an Aussie.

Something's gone wrong with Hoover. I think he thinks he's an Australian Shepherd.

I do love Mr Hoover :D :D

[MrsD]

I have a kelpie & a BC & do find them quite different in temperament. My kelpie is quite hard but can shut down if given a correction, but more along the lines of "well stuff you then, I'm not doing anything" rather than falling apart. He has a mind of his own when it comes to doing what he thinks he should be doing. He is very much a thinker, & incredibly fast to pick things up, he can work things out very quickly & can read me very easily (this is NOT always a good thing!).

My BC is quite soft & extremely biddable & can be pulled into line by just saying her name in a gruff voice but she doesn't fall apart & bounces back immediately & tries harder. She's not an independant thinker like my kelpie & not quite as fast to pick things up but is still very easy to train & in some ways easier to train than my kelpie because she's not worrying about what she thinks she should be doing but more focused on what I'm asking for.

He has an off switch but she doesn't really, while we are away camping/caravanning with them, he is happy to settle in the trailer & wait for some "doggy time" but she is always figeting & will destroy her bed within 2 minutes because she can't settle down & chill out.

That's what I find with my 2 dogs, but others might find their dogs different, it does make a difference if you have owned or worked the different breeds, I've had a few kelpies over the years & I used to think my kelpie was fairly biddable until I got my BC .

[Kavik]

I've only had Kelpies so can't really compare. Loves working things out and shaping, can be a bit cheeky, has given me the finger a few times at agility (start lines mostly - I wanted him to sit but he wanted to stand, so he stands ) but I think pretty biddable, he wants to do the right thing on course, doesn't try to make up his own.

[xena98]

I have had Kelpie Border Collie and 2 German Coolies. Love my coolies I think they are great dogs. They are very biddable, very smart pick things up very quickly but they are on the go all the time,oh and a bit neurotic at times lol. My kelpie was just a rat bag she was smart but like doing things her way which doesnt usually agree with me so with her you just never knew what you were going to get (so you didnt expect to pass) the border collie isnt as smart as the coolies but once there she got it it just took awhile to get there and also with her she doesnt like changes so trying to teach her new things she got a bit upset. Saying that they all got there obedience champion title by the time they hit 3.5 years of age and they got there agility champion title as well except the kelpie (only the fact she got trained incorrectly cause in the days I got her we were still heeling our dogs around courses and I had a fast dog and noone knew how to handle her) If I had her now she probably would have that title as well (kelpie early 90's)

They all chill out and had off switch buttons actually my younger coolie doesnt do mornings and doesnt get out of bed either lol

But it really depends on what you like cause I would get all 3 breeds again

[B-Q]

Buster is quite kelpie-like in temperament and he's worlds apart from my BC.

Buster is on the lazy side but has that "whats in it for me?" kelpie streak. He's goofy and silly though.

This time around I wanted a BC, I knew a kelpie or koolie would suit me aswell but I think a BC is the best fit for me. I like that Quinn is more likely to work just because she wants to work, she's so intune with me, wants to learn all the time and is more than happy to push herself. She is insanely smart, first time we ever practiced shaping weaves in class the instructor told us to be looking to click any interest in them and hopefully getting them to stick they're head through... Quinn just walked up and looked at it for a second then walked in and out of the first two like "... done, what now?"

I was also seriously considering a koolie and if one had come up before Quinn I probably would have got one but I find the biggest difference between koolies and other breeds are that they are social, where kelpies and BC's tend to be reserved with people and not overly interested in dogs, koolies are social butterflies. This is a big reason i wanted a BC instead, I like being my dogs whole world and I take it personally if everyone is there favourite person. lol

My mums next dog is going to be a koolie, we looked at everything from greyhounds to danes to bedlingtons to poodles to wolfhounds to whippets to GSP's to Vizsla's. I pushed koolies at her for quite a while before she started looking seriously at them and now we're waiting on a pup, they tick all the boxes and are such an awesome breed.

Edited July 20, 2011 by B-Q

[Kavik]

Mine are not reserved with people - they love to visit strangers for a pat

[B-Q]

Quinn has the perfect system, she puts her ears back, wags her tail and approaches people all smiley untill the moment they bend down to pat her and then she just drops her gaze and wanders away, leaving some poor person looking so awkwrd and rejected.

Buster just looks straight through people, even if they pat him he rarely acknowledges them.

[aussielover]

Quinn has the perfect system, she puts her ears back, wags her tail and approaches people all smiley untill the moment they bend down to pat her and then she just drops her gaze and wanders away, leaving some poor person looking so awkwrd and rejected.

Buster just looks straight through people, even if they pat him he rarely acknowledges them.

:rofl:

[JulesP]

Poppy throws herself at people, squealing, like they are her BEST FRIEND IN THE WORLD. Most embarrassing when I don't know the people at all. She will not work for other people though and spends most of her time staring at me. All my borders have been people friendly. Amber is pretty shy but is very sweet with people.

[Vickie]

Difference in temperament, training & exercise needs between the 4 breeds will depend on the lines you are looking at. They will vary widely between each breed for BCs kelpies & coolies. I'm not sure about the Aussies, all the ones I know are very similar, but since they are rarely bred for work as the other 3 are, that kind of makes sense.

When you ask about working styles, I am assuming you mean stockwork? There are general differences here, but again, it is dependent on the lines.

I think it's always best when looking for a dog for sports, to spend a lot of time watching trials. Usually a breed will stand out to you & often you admire a number of dogs only to find they are related or similarly bred.

I've just got my 6th BC (other than childhood ones).

1 show/pet bred, 1 farm bred, 1 showbred, 3 working/trial bred. The last 3 I got b/c I loved everything about their parents/families. I often now see a pup or dog that catches my eye, only to find out they are related or similarly bred. This is the type that suits me & the one I'm likely to stick to.

Jmo

Edited July 20, 2011 by Vickie

[aussielover]

I do admire the short/medium coated border collies (so presumably working lines?) at agility, but wonder if I could handle such dogs...

The koolies i've met seem to be less intense but also more nervy.

Kelpies also seem very focussed and some are really noisy!

Aussies are gorgeous I think wuffles described them well as clowns lol

Oh well it will be a while before I'm ready for another dog anyway, was just interested in what made people choose certain herding breeds when clearly all 4 of these have the potential to do well at dog sports.

My dog currently gets on best with koolies and kelpies interstingly.

These dogs are great for her as they think she is a sheep and chase her. She loves being the chasee but only likes to chase certian dogs for some reason.

Edited July 20, 2011 by aussielover

[Vickie]

I've found the working lines much easier to handle & live with, but then I've also grown a lot as a handler & trainer since having them. One thing is for sure, they have a much better off switch than my previous BCs.

[Kavik]

Mine can be noisy off course but are silent on course during agility.

[aussielover]

I also agree- they are worlds apart in temperament.

They learn differently, train differently. Have different personalities and quirky traits.Kelpies are thinkers so will work differently to a dog that has been bred to work under more direction. But even then there are great variations.

I would seriously suggest spending time with them all. I am guessing you want a competitive dog at agility, but you still have to live with them the rest of the time. I would not be choosing your next sports dog on aesthetics, rather attend trials and look at the style the dogs competing have, then go to training and see what they are like there. Look at the lines that are actually doing what you want to do in the breed you like and go from there.

I think need to stop and really do some breed research before you go any further. Asking if aesthetics is one of the only decisions to make about narrowing the list down shows you have not done enough of this.

Just to be clear, I am not currently looking for another dog

One monster is enough for the time being :D

Aesthetics is surely a consideration- for example I would not get a long coated breed like an aussie or show BC at the moment as I just don't have the time for that much grooming and I live in a tick area.

I am sure that many people have chosen their breed/dog on looks alone (not saying its the right thing to do- just wondering what drives peoples decisions). One in our agility class did exactly that and has a very nice dog.

I am definitely considering another dog in the future (a few years) and would obviously do more in depth research closer to the time. I did have my heart set on a koolie, but recent comments in other threads have changed my mind a bit.

Edited July 20, 2011 by aussielover

[skip]

Thanks for posting this topic.... interesting. Wish it was as easy as saying BC's are like this and kelpies are like this... I can't see which I would like as different dogs in each breed seem to vary a fair bit.

And I get that if you went for a line you like you would stand a better chance of finding a dog you like.

I was talking to poodle owners at a trial recently and most poodles were very focused on their owner which is fine. But I got a big kelpie hug from Kavik's Kaos. He is much bigger than kelpies I am used to so his paws can nearly wrap round my waist. And he really looks at you and makes eye contact. I like a dog that likes people. I told Kaos he was making it even harder to be looking at poodles with his big smile.

I do hear that some owners say Kelpies can "blow" you off etc? I am not the most experienced trainer but I find when my kelpie x is running happily he really watches my every move and always goes where I ask him. Even if I stuff it up sometimes. I don't want a "hard" dog (strong minded, stubborn) if that makes sense but like the more slinky submissive kelpies.

I think we need more koolies in agility as their colours are amazing.

[skip]

Aussielover - What comments about coolies made you think twice?

And I'm also swayed by looks. I'm too practical at times. I like short coated slinky dogs (like the ones I have ) and really can't see a full coated BC or aussie in my small house with 2 other dogs. I back onto a large bit of land and I like to be able to give the dogs a quick wipe if they end up in the lake, simply muddy or maybe rolled in pelican poo like my gold chi x likes to do.