Jumabaar Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Personally I think the 'challenging skills' with a less ideal dog is total crap. Try training a border collie that anticipates so much that it does a right about turn on the judges command! Training a high drive working dog is like driving a sports car (not that I know what that is like but you get the point), very very easy for the handler to stuff up. Very sharp animals are quick to learn and give you a super feeling but they are challenging. All my border collies have required great self control from me. None of them have appreciated correction and just a gruff command if I am having a bad day can have a nasty effect. Kelpies I've noticed are a little the same. They will take their toys and go home too. Aussie's seem a little bit more robust although I have seen some soft ones. I know that feeling, I always say that my first Kelpie would have been great as a second or third dog. I just didnt have the talent to keep up with her because I was too busy tripping over my own feet...... or the equipment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Rusty Bucket Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 My dog left me behind on four straight jumps and when she got to the tyre, she thought I'd rather do the tunnel and skipped the tyre. Sigh. I can't run fast enough to keep up with her if the jumps are in a straight line like that. And we don't have a strong enough go-on or recall to get it right. I'm uncertain about how good Rotties are for jumping sports - or labs. Is this ok with their joints or not? My dog is a AWL bitza and so far no worries despite her being desexed way too young according to the research. I thought I was a reasonably good dog trainer until I got this one and OMG have I had to improve and I'm sure it's good for me and any dog I own now and in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I'm uncertain about how good Rotties are for jumping sports - or labs. Is this ok with their joints or not? As long as they are kept lean, I see no issue with their joints as opposed to other breeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) It's also probably worth thinking about what is important to you competition-wise. What dog sports are you interested in? Obedience? Agility? Tracking? Flyball? Different sports require different skills of both dog and handler. Do you want to be competitive? Just have fun? Be the fastest one out there? Do you want high scores or are you happy just to scrape through? My goal was just to have fun but hopefully be semi-competitive without getting in over my head. I ended up with a medium drive dog, who is very forgiving for a novice handler, is fast enough but not super speedy in agility, is extremely reliable but not particularly flashy in obedience (ie she is perfect for me). But that's more about the individual dog than her breed. Edited July 19, 2011 by wuffles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Personally I think the 'challenging skills' with a less ideal dog is total crap. Try training a border collie that anticipates so much that it does a right about turn on the judges command! Training a high drive working dog is like driving a sports car (not that I know what that is like but you get the point), very very easy for the handler to stuff up. Very sharp animals are quick to learn and give you a super feeling but they are challenging. All my border collies have required great self control from me. None of them have appreciated correction and just a gruff command if I am having a bad day can have a nasty effect. Kelpies I've noticed are a little the same. They will take their toys and go home too. Aussie's seem a little bit more robust although I have seen some soft ones. I said that "every dog regardless of breed comes with it's own challenges" so I am certainly NOT saying that high drive dogs are not a challenge - but if you only ever train the one 'type' of dog, how does that really challenge your handling skills? From a training perspective I am not saying one is easier than the other, just different. However, I also have to be honest and say I personally find handling higher drive dogs that are of a more naturally handler orientated breed easier in some ways than handling lower drive dogs who are not as naturally biddable. There is no doubt that there are many advantages as a competitor to training a dog that naturally wants to work with you. Personally my experience has been that instructors/competitors that have only ever trained one type or breed of dog do not have as wide a range of skills as those who have trained a variety of breeds or dogs with different levels of drive, temperaments etc - though I am sure they are not all like that. Funnily enough they are the same people who asked me why I'd bother trying to train and compete with my dog BTW - I agree with the sports car analogy. That's why I call my friends dog the sports car and Daisy the Daewoo Lanos ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemesideways Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) Wow ok, for everyone making assumptions about me, my dogs and my life based on small snippets you read on DOL, my personal reasons for getting another dog are really none of your business. I asked for breed suggestions, not stupid comments based on rather massively incorrect assumptions about me. For everyone else who have been making really helpful comments regarding the actual purpose of the thread, thank you I am reading everything and you've given me a lot of ideas Edited July 19, 2011 by lovemesideways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 When i started doing agility many moons ago you would see an enormous variety of breeds ,all shapes & sizes doing extremely well & highly competitive. Then over the years the courses become better suited for "certain breeds" & those with breeds no longer suited dropped out because they where feed up with courses not being "friendly" to all breeds & realistically impossible for some breeds to get good times or places You go to most trials these days & all your see are the same breeds no real thrill in that nor a real public relations encouragement to joe public when all you see are Kelpies,working borders & a handful of other breed. I loved doing agility but wont do it now as the courses are to tight & i have more concern for the dogs safety which is ashame as they lose out on seeing something "different" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I said that "every dog regardless of breed comes with it's own challenges" so I am certainly NOT saying that high drive dogs are not a challenge - but if you only ever train the one 'type' of dog, how does that really challenge your handling skills? From a training perspective I am not saying one is easier than the other, just different. However, I also have to be honest and say I personally find handling higher drive dogs that are of a more naturally handler orientated breed easier in some ways than handling lower drive dogs who are not as naturally biddable. There is no doubt that there are many advantages as a competitor to training a dog that naturally wants to work with you. Personally my experience has been that instructors/competitors that have only ever trained one type or breed of dog do not have as wide a range of skills as those who have trained a variety of breeds or dogs with different levels of drive, temperaments etc - though I am sure they are not all like that. Funnily enough they are the same people who asked me why I'd bother trying to train and compete with my dog BTW - I agree with the sports car analogy. That's why I call my friends dog the sports car and Daisy the Daewoo Lanos ;) Why would I want to challenge my handling skills? Not being a smart arse but don't really get that. I don't have anything to prove. I guess my skills are ok though as in 5 years of instructing I can usually get the pups to do what I would like when I handle them. Except for Chis. They scare me too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) Why would I want to challenge my handling skills? Not being a smart arse but don't really get that. I don't have anything to prove. I guess my skills are ok though as in 5 years of instructing I can usually get the pups to do what I would like when I handle them. Except for Chis. They scare me too much. I'm sure your skills are great, but that wasn't what my previous post was about. Training something different to what you normally do is a challenge. I wasn't saying that means that having a high drive working breed isn't. All I said was I think that it definitely challenges our skill as handlers when we train dogs that aren't necessarily "ideal" for dog sports. However I can also understand why people don't want a challenge like that, and IMO, every dog regardless of breed comes with it's own challenges. I said that training a breed that isn't ideal for dog sports challenges our handling skills, not that training more "traditional" breeds is unchallenging. I also went on to say I understand why people don't always want a challenge like that, as every dog presents it's own set of challenges/difficulties. ETA: The only reason I would personally want to challenge my handling skills would be to widen and improve my skills and because, well, I like a challenge and I like to do different things. Edited July 19, 2011 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I tend to agree with Greytmate. I think you need to focus on a dog that you want to live with, and then look at a dog that is suited to how YOU do at dog sports. Certain breeds do very well at dog sports when they have very experienced and measured owners. I have a dog who is good at agility given my complete lack of handling skills. He seems to be able to figure out what I really want from him, has good but measured drive and is very forgiving. If I had a dog that was a lot more drivey and not as forgiving (no offence border people, but most BC's I've met fit into this category) we'd fail miserably (not due to the dog's lack of skill, but mine). I suggest giving agility with one of your current dogs a go. Not to necessarily compete with them, but to learn how YOU operate. Also, it will give you time to improve your skills. A total newbie trying to handle a dog with a lot of drive, nouse etc (all good things in an agility dog) can be very hard on both dog and owner. Do you think it is influenced by being on DOL though? Normally people would join their agility club and train their dog and it wouldn't be until they started competing that they decided they wanted a more 'competitive' breed. By that time they would probably have seen all these 'competitive' dogs train or compete. But here they see the pictures, video's etc of these breeds competing and decide that is the best way to be competitive? Rather than how much it just comes down to training- plenty of the 'competitive' breeds fail to make it to competition because they are trained incorrectly..... I am not saying this is the case with the OP- there have been plenty of similar threads in the past few month. Where someone has got a lovely pet and decided that they need a more competitive animal before they even know the limitations of their current dog- be it in agility, the show ring or flyball? Asking what is the right breed for them when that is something that should evolve from what you learn from your first dog. Lists are made from the dogs they see in the ring, not based on dogs they actually want to live or train and in some cases I have just despaired at how little people have understood about the dogs on their list.... Wow ok, for everyone making assumptions about me, my dogs and my life based on small snippets you read on DOL, my personal reasons for getting another dog are really none of your business. I asked for breed suggestions, not stupid comments based on rather massively incorrect assumptions about me. For everyone else who have been making really helpful comments regarding the actual purpose of the thread, thank you I am reading everything and you've given me a lot of ideas Perhaps it was a little OT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemesideways Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) I tend to agree with Greytmate. I think you need to focus on a dog that you want to live with, and then look at a dog that is suited to how YOU do at dog sports. Certain breeds do very well at dog sports when they have very experienced and measured owners. I have a dog who is good at agility given my complete lack of handling skills. He seems to be able to figure out what I really want from him, has good but measured drive and is very forgiving. If I had a dog that was a lot more drivey and not as forgiving (no offence border people, but most BC's I've met fit into this category) we'd fail miserably (not due to the dog's lack of skill, but mine). I suggest giving agility with one of your current dogs a go. Not to necessarily compete with them, but to learn how YOU operate. Also, it will give you time to improve your skills. A total newbie trying to handle a dog with a lot of drive, nouse etc (all good things in an agility dog) can be very hard on both dog and owner. Do you think it is influenced by being on DOL though? Normally people would join their agility club and train their dog and it wouldn't be until they started competing that they decided they wanted a more 'competitive' breed. By that time they would probably have seen all these 'competitive' dogs train or compete. But here they see the pictures, video's etc of these breeds competing and decide that is the best way to be competitive? Rather than how much it just comes down to training- plenty of the 'competitive' breeds fail to make it to competition because they are trained incorrectly..... I am not saying this is the case with the OP- there have been plenty of similar threads in the past few month. Where someone has got a lovely pet and decided that they need a more competitive animal before they even know the limitations of their current dog- be it in agility, the show ring or flyball? Asking what is the right breed for them when that is something that should evolve from what you learn from your first dog. Lists are made from the dogs they see in the ring, not based on dogs they actually want to live or train and in some cases I have just despaired at how little people have understood about the dogs on their list.... Wow ok, for everyone making assumptions about me, my dogs and my life based on small snippets you read on DOL, my personal reasons for getting another dog are really none of your business. I asked for breed suggestions, not stupid comments based on rather massively incorrect assumptions about me. For everyone else who have been making really helpful comments regarding the actual purpose of the thread, thank you I am reading everything and you've given me a lot of ideas Perhaps it was a little OT Not talking about you directly Woofen. You actually know me IRL so you don't count, I think you even know where I live! but I would appreciate it if we can keep the thread on topic please. Edited July 19, 2011 by lovemesideways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozjen Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) The Australian Shepherds I know love abit of rough play. My girl not having any other big dogs to roughhouse with at home has me as a subsitute, we love to have a wrestle on the bed but if she starts to do zoomies I duck for cover as once she builds up enough speed she will throw her whole body at me shoulder first, all part of the fun though. When she needs to be gentle she is and would get down low to the ground and play gently with my Papillon when he was a pup and she is still very aware of the size difference now and plays accordingly. They are very much a velcro breed and smart beyond believe, anyone who reckons dogs don't have reasoning powers never dealt with an Aussie, mine has outsmarted me more than once. Some Aussies are more high drive than others, my sister and I have three Aussies between us and each has a very different drive and personality, but all are velcro and extremly smart. Those I know also have a very clownish happiness about them, which they use to full effect if their owner is feeling down or if they stuff something up and they want to lighten their owners mood. Unfortunately, this can lead to spoiling them as it is hard to stay mad at a naughty Aussie when it goes out of its way to make you smile.;) My girl is very spoilt and is my heartdog. Reading your requirements you wouldn't be far wrong going for an Australian Shepherd, while many people think they are similar to Border Collies they are apparently very different in nature (Some Aussie breeders have Borders too) and herding style to Borders as well as a different attitude to work/training. The Aussies below had all been swimming and trecking throuh the bush before this picture was taken, they all look alot different when in the showring and groomed up (all Aust Ch), but most of the time they are just family members who like to get out and about and grotty. Edited July 19, 2011 by ozjen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozjen Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Forgot to mention all three of the Aussies have been on sheep, The Black tri on the right is competing at Masters level in Agility and the other Black Tri at Excellent level, also between them the Black tris dabble in obedience, K9 Freestyle and tracking. The Masters dog is extremly focused when working, the Excellent dog has been spoilt to a large extent by her owner (ME) who goes into meltdown on entering a ring and is doing better under another handler in Agility and waiting for me to relax more with competing in the other activites to finish her legs to titles in obedience and K9 Freestyle. So they are a good breed for a variety of performance sports provided the handler isn't sending the wrong signals.:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) I must admit, I thought that your original question was fine - although perhaps I was just happy you didn't dismiss the Terrible Kelpie out of hand I have to post the link that KumaAkita posted in the Spitz Thread - . Truly awesome - and probably exactly the right speed for me I am one of those owners whose dog is definitely too fast for me ... When we got Elbie, we were just getting a pet and had no intention of doing anything more than basic obedience with him - I'd never even heard of agility or flyball. After we got him, he enjoyed tricks and obedience so much that agility seemed like a natural progression for him and he loves it. It's more stressful for me though because he is so fast. We had guest instructors one week who weren't really familiar with us and they kept reprimanding me for: (1) not keeping up with my dog; and (2) letting my dog get ahead of me. He is like a blur streaking past me sometimes. Fortunately our regular instructor is awesome and knows Elbie very well - last week, she showed everyone how to run alongside their dogs for the part of the course we were doing, but for me, she said - "You - you have to go and stand all the way over there (behind two obstacles) and call your dog to you because he is too fast." Luckily he does distance work fine and I can send him ahead of me to do the course while I take shortcuts but I must say I dream of the day when he's so familiar with the course all I have to do is stay put and yell out the commands to him ;) Oops, I'm also ambling OT - but I did post a link to Agility Akita up there :D Edited July 19, 2011 by koalathebear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gayle. Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Where's the problem with getting a specific type of dog for a specific purpose? If the OP wanted to show a dog, I doubt she'd be told to show what she's got.....she'd be told to speak to breeders, go to shows, research lines and then buy the best quality puppy she could find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemesideways Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 I must admit, I thought that your original question was fine - although perhaps I was just happy you didn't dismiss the Terrible Kelpie out of hand I have to post the link that KumaAkita posted in the Spitz Thread - . Truly awesome - and probably exactly the right speed for me I am one of those owners whose dog is definitely too fast for me ... When we got Elbie, we were just getting a pet and had no intention of doing anything more than basic obedience with him - I'd never even heard of agility or flyball. After we got him, he enjoyed tricks and obedience so much that agility seemed like a natural progression for him and he loves it. It's more stressful for me though because he is so fast. We had guest instructors one week who weren't really familiar with us and they kept reprimanding me for: (1) not keeping up with my dog; and (2) letting my dog get ahead of me. He is like a blur streaking past me sometimes. Fortunately our regular instructor is awesome and knows Elbie very well - last week, she showed everyone how to run alongside their dogs for the part of the course we were doing, but for me, she said - "You - you have to go and stand all the way over there (behind two obstacles) and call your dog to you because he is too fast." Luckily he does distance work fine and I can send him ahead of me to do the course while I take shortcuts but I must say I dream of the day when he's so familiar with the course all I have to do is stay put and yell out the commands to him ;) Oops, I'm also ambling OT - but I did post a link to Agility Akita up there :D Your response about kelpies was really helpful (And I love seeing photos/hearing about your guys :D) I Love the look of the Akita, but it is again a breed that is not quite what I'm looking for. I need someone I know to buy one so I can get some akita puppy lovin' That video is hilarious, looks like my sort of speed too. I'm waiting for the day I trip and go flying cause I'm running too fast, knowing me it will be during a competition of some sort and I'll land on my dog Where's the problem with getting a specific type of dog for a specific purpose? If the OP wanted to show a dog, I doubt she'd be told to show what she's got.....she'd be told to speak to breeders, go to shows, research lines and then buy the best quality puppy she could find. The people who posted seem to be under the incorrect impression that I have never trained a dog of any sort, or participated in/competed in any sort of dog sport. And that I own 2 young dogs myself that have not been trained or done any sort of dog sport. So I think the problem is the idea of someone who knows nothing about dogs and training, going and getting another dog "for sport" because they read all about the super cool sounding stuff people do with their dogs and want one of those magical breeds that come pre-trained and able to do all that cool sport stuff. Showing is something I have considered as well. I have quite a few friends who show and Ive really enjoyed the shows Ive been to and participated in. Maybe if the right puppy/line/opportunity shows itself ( not that I need another thing to buy dog stuff for...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth. Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 (edited) I'm another who suggests Aussies - but i'm totally obsessed now and can't wait to add another to my little family!! Lottie is not the highest drive aussie around by far, but she's awesome for me, and we're having a lot of fun, and lately, she's really started to work nicely and is showing a lot more drive and enthusiasm for training (probably has a lot to do with the way i've been training her lately!!) She's an awesome, easy going dog to have around and to live with, can play ROUGH when she wants to, but also plays to suit the dog she's with (she's also with my parents 16yr old chi x at the moment while i'm at home, and she doesn't bother her a bit!!). Her coat is really easy to look after, and I probably don't groom her as much as I should, but it's a very easy to maintin coat! We've just started competing in agility, and wow, we're having soooo much fun!! I think once we're both more experienced, she's going to be an awesome little agility dog :D We also do a bit of obedience, but we're having a break from that, but at her first trial we got a qualie and a 2nd - now just to keep going We also have had a go at flyball - and she picked it up in only 2 sessions :D And an obedience pic as well, just for good measure :D Edited July 19, 2011 by LuvLottie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Aww Lottie is gorgeous. Just wanted to say that although Aussie people say their dogs coats are easy- its true to a point but in comparison to a lab or even a gsd, aussie coats are not as wash and wear, take longer to dry off, the "pants" on aussies can be an issue esp if the dog is not feeling well, the aussie requires weekly brushing at least behind the ears and the pants, aussies are much harder to tick search (may be an issue if you're in a tick area). Having had both breeds I think the labs is for sure a lot easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth. Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Aww Lottie is gorgeous. Just wanted to say that although Aussie people say their dogs coats are easy- its true to a point but in comparison to a lab or even a gsd, aussie coats are not as wash and wear, take longer to dry off, the "pants" on aussies can be an issue esp if the dog is not feeling well, the aussie requires weekly brushing at least behind the ears and the pants, aussies are much harder to tick search (may be an issue if you're in a tick area). Having had both breeds I think the labs is for sure a lot easier. I got very lucky with Lottie - I don't brush her every week, and she doesn't knot up, but again, they're all different!! She has such a nice, easy to maintain coat!! But yes, in comparison to a short coated dog they are more work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 At least they dont shed as much!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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