Heeling - Gone Downhill Since Entering Cd

[puddles]

Hi all,

ok so my ACD had gone way downhill since entering CD. He was ok in CCD on lead, and is ok at training, however tonight in our first CD trial the s**t hit the proverbial fan!! He was way lost and just flat as. It has been about a month and a half since last trial, so its not that he is burnt out. We also have a problem in that we cannot do ring training with our club as there is no one interested in putting people through. I think he knows that ropes around mean I cant correct him also. I try to gee him up during the initial stages of entering the ring but he doesnt really enjoy it, but training is fine!! HELP!

Does anyone have any suggestions about what I could do?

[TerraNik]

It sounds like you need to go back to basics and build your reward history.

Reward heavily and build on his duration - so initially reward for every step of focused HW. Then start rewarding for 2 steps of HW then 4 steps then 1 step then 10 steps, etc. Juggle the numbers around. You want him focusing on you for every step. If he looks away, just break off and pause... Then start again. You shouldn't need to correct him. Make sure you're practicing off lead as well - having the lead there can feel like a totally different exercise to the dog.

There are other things you can do but that's a start.

[dogdude]

Good advice TerraNik

Thats the problem with correctional based training. With trialling, your dog really needs to be motivated positively, if you really want to be successful in the ring. My first dog was trained like this, and although he was a trial winner, he just wasnt in the same league as the more regular trial winners. He was reliably good, but by no means great.

[huski]

Totally agree with DD and TN!

[puddles]

Totally agree with DD and TN!

thanks guys, I might look up the threads on buidling drive. Its hard to get around check chain training as the lady who is pretty much the backbone of our club has won national UD titles years ago and absolutely hates food etc, but maybe I will just give class training a miss for a while and do my own thing, as I have had some experience with food and clickers. Someone told me about a Susan Garrett method for heeling, which involves what was said above, but had someting to do with hand position also. I am just a bit bummed now as he was quite successful in CCD!

[huski]

Totally agree with DD and TN!

thanks guys, I might look up the threads on buidling drive. Its hard to get around check chain training as the lady who is pretty much the backbone of our club has won national UD titles years ago and absolutely hates food etc, but maybe I will just give class training a miss for a while and do my own thing, as I have had some experience with food and clickers. Someone told me about a Susan Garrett method for heeling, which involves what was said above, but had someting to do with hand position also. I am just a bit bummed now as he was quite successful in CCD!

Whereabouts are you based Puddles?

I plugged away with obedience club training for two years until I found other methods, because my dog had no interest in training and training her felt like I was fighting her the entire time.

I am sure we can give you a long list of people just on DOL who do well in the obedience ring getting UD titles and competing successfully at a national level etc who don't use physical corrections in training :D

Often I see dogs who are trained with more 'traditional methods' who do alright in the lower levels of obedience but struggle as they progress.

[puddles]

Totally agree with DD and TN!

thanks guys, I might look up the threads on buidling drive. Its hard to get around check chain training as the lady who is pretty much the backbone of our club has won national UD titles years ago and absolutely hates food etc, but maybe I will just give class training a miss for a while and do my own thing, as I have had some experience with food and clickers. Someone told me about a Susan Garrett method for heeling, which involves what was said above, but had someting to do with hand position also. I am just a bit bummed now as he was quite successful in CCD!

Whereabouts are you based Puddles?

I plugged away with obedience club training for two years until I found other methods, because my dog had no interest in training and training her felt like I was fighting her the entire time.

I am sure we can give you a long list of people just on DOL who do well in the obedience ring getting UD titles and competing successfully at a national level etc who don't use physical corrections in training :D

Often I see dogs who are trained with more 'traditional methods' who do alright in the lower levels of obedience but struggle as they progress.

thanks Huski!

I am in Bundaberg! That makes me feel better to know there are dogs out there doing fantastic in the higher levels who are not correction trained! All I hear about from our club is how food training sucks and it ruins your dog, and like I said, I am kind of new to this so it's all very confusing!

[huski]

thanks Huski!

I am in Bundaberg! That makes me feel better to know there are dogs out there doing fantastic in the higher levels who are not correction trained! All I hear about from our club is how food training sucks and it ruins your dog, and like I said, I am kind of new to this so it's all very confusing!

Seita here on DOL is based in QLD too and she is one pass away from her Obedience Champion title and her training, like mine, is strictly about reward and having lots of drive

Ptolomy and Bedazzled who are based over in WA have OCs on their dogs too and they don't use physical corrections either and train with food!

IMO more and more people are moving away from using physical corrections in obedience, though there are still a lot of 'old school' trainers around.

[fuzzy82]

And, training with corrections doesn't mean you can't use food either. I know trainers who use rewards when the dog does a good job, and correct with a check chain if the dog breaks position. It's not one or the other.

Personally I don't agree with using check chains though for sports training though. If the dog doesn't enjoy it, then why bother doing it?

[Staranais]

I've never seen a dog trained primarily with correction doing well in the obedience ring (or in any other competitive or working venue, for that matter). That's not to say that you can't use correction at some point. If you're careful and sensitive about it, corrections can be very helpful for some dogs and some situations. But every great competition dog I've ever seen has had their foundation in positive training.

Edited July 17, 2011 by Staranais

[huski]

I've never seen a dog trained primarily with correction doing well in the obedience ring (or in any other competitive or working venue, for that matter). That's not to say that you can't use correction at some point. If you're careful and sensitive about it, corrections can be very helpful for some dogs and some situations. But every great competition dog I've ever seen has had their foundation in positive training.

Just to clarify I definitely don't think physical corrections are bad, but I don't really see much use for them when training dog sports like obedience.

I also think there are lots of ways to give corrections other than physical corrections i.e. NRM, removal of reward, ending the game etc.

[wuffles]

puddles, you wouldn't believe how common a problem this is at my local trials. There are a lot of people who passed CCD quite easily but have done a number of Novice trials with no or limited success.

I do expect my dog to flatten a little in the ring because I act differently (nerves), and I haven't done enough ring practice with rewards.

One thing that has really helped us is to use remote rewards - ie. sending to a foot pot. My dog is shown her stinky jackpot food before going into the ring, it then stays in her crate and she gets it when we leave the ring if she has done well. So she knows she's still going to get rewarded if she does a good job.

[puddles]

puddles, you wouldn't believe how common a problem this is at my local trials. There are a lot of people who passed CCD quite easily but have done a number of Novice trials with no or limited success.

I do expect my dog to flatten a little in the ring because I act differently (nerves), and I haven't done enough ring practice with rewards.

One thing that has really helped us is to use remote rewards - ie. sending to a foot pot. My dog is shown her stinky jackpot food before going into the ring, it then stays in her crate and she gets it when we leave the ring if she has done well. So she knows she's still going to get rewarded if she does a good job.

thanks Wuffles - makes me feel better that its not just me! I know there were some critical eyes from my own club on me yesterday I actually used the remote rewards and still nothing!! Do people think that if I do some training with the rings up, with rewards and all, that would help?

Edited July 17, 2011 by puddles

[Ptolomy]

Puddles - we do lots of work at a young age of setting rings up, walking into the ring and standing next to the start post, removing our lead and getting ready to take off and then jackpotting the dog. We vary the amount of time sitting at the post.

So the dog actually goes into a trial ring expecting to get a reward and his favourite spot - is right next to the start post :D

[puddles]

Wow Ptolomy what a great idea!!

[dogdude]

If you are really serious about trialling then it would be my advice to get away from your dog club NOW. Stay a member and just use it for distraction training and socialising from a distance if you are able. Thats what most triallers do.

Continually drilling over an hour long session will soon make it impossible to do well IMO. Serious triallers work for no longer than about 15 mins max, and work on part exercises mainly, and string it all together on trial day.

Try reading the T.O.T method (sticky on the obedience page) It will set you on your way. Not sure how old your dog is, but being an ACD,if he loves balls etc then he may be suited for training in prey drive. (My personal fav method of training.) Best get a mentor if you are really wanting to be a gun in the ring. There a plenty on DOL, and from your state also. People already mentioned have a world of Knowledge. Tap into it. They are only too happy to share.

Good luck!

[Seita]

Unfortunately for you, there isn't really a choice of clubs in Bundy but that doesn't mean you can't train on your own and do well. I trained Ella at home, in parks etc and only took her to an obedience club a few weeks before her first trial in CCD for some extra proofing. Do lots of research, ask as many questions as you can and above all make training a positive thing so that your dog loves to work for you - this will translate across into the trial ring.