Herding Types - Yard Vs Paddock

[Kavik]

I am looking at Kelpie breeders and they say some are better for yard work or some are better for paddock work. For those in the know, what would the difference be? Would this be able to be seen in temperament or is it only apparent when herding? Would it have any effect on suitability for other sports such as agility?

[persephone]

Our pups are quickly sorted as to 'paddock dogs' or 'yard dogs' perhaps not by scientific methods .. but it seems to work ;) Not often we get an 'all rounder' ..most times they specialise.

our yard dog pups seem very bold and active.. have low body sensitivity, and are noisy.They will happily jump/run onto/over anything, will get rolled/fall over, and just keep going .

paddock dog candidates seem to be more settled.. will be calmer , quieter and aren't as forceful.They may use 'eye' rather than speed/pushiness ...and be 'marathon' runners, not 'sprinters'

Both obviously have to think and anticipate ... and they enjoy whatever it is they are good at

[J...]

I find it harder to generalise out of our dogs.

I found our paddock dogs tended to prefer working at a distance, some were fairly frustrating as yard/pen dogs as a result. Slightly more independent too, give them a job and let them get on with it. Don't bother telling them how to do it because you'll be wasting your breath.

Our yard/pen dogs weren't barkers or hard, just a quiet confidence that was willing to work with you at close quarters. Dogs you didn't have to think much to work them, they were kind of just there when & where you needed them.

[Kavik]

Thanks guys

So paddock dogs like to work with more distance, yard dogs like to work close and more pushy/noisy? Would this have any impact on agility potential - would one be better than the other?

[J...]

It's hard to say definitively because it can be about personal preference as well.

The dogs I grew up with as "paddock dogs" were the kind of dog my Dad liked for that job - he wasn't into "push button" dogs, more an independent type of dog that while they'd listen to what you wanted (most of the time!) they also had a fair amount of initiative and nouse for getting the job done with minimal direction. Same as when I was jillarooing.

Yard dogs, you do want a dog that will work with you a little more and will do as asked.

My personal preference would be take a yard dog over a paddock dog - Darcy is only 1/2 kelpie but I had some early battles with her not wanting to work close in with me. She's a dog who's been incredibly easy to train but that was one thing I did battle with in the early days. You could argue it was inexperience on my part too given she was my first dog, but I've seen that resistance to close work in a few others as well in varying degrees.

[piper]

Thanks guys

So paddock dogs like to work with more distance, yard dogs like to work close and more pushy/noisy? Would this have any impact on agility potential - would one be better than the other?

This is nothing hard and fast just an observation of someone I know that had a yard kelpie and then a paddock kelpie. Her yard kelpie in agiltiy was VERY responsive to body language and would very easily pull off of obstacles to her and was very focussed on her a lot of the time and also barked around the course on a regular basis, she had to do a lot of work with him to get any distance out of him. Her next kelpie who is a paddock line dog runs wider, smoother and quieter. But she also trained him quite differently due to the difficulties she encountered with the previous 1. So nature vs nurture come into the debate here - is it his paddock background or the difference in training that make him that way

I will add that at the same time as she had her yard kelpie I had my old girl training. They were about 2 months apart in age and we did a lot of foundation type work together with them before many people believed in doing it, things like sending to targets, restrained recalls to leading hands etc and as we progressed obstacle layering. My girl always worked at a distance happily where as her boy never did. My girl would blow me off to go to obstacles of her choice, her boy was ultra sensitive to the slightest twitch from her in turning back to her away from an obstacle and he hated layering which my girl would readily do.

Probably not helpful but an agility observation for you

[dasha]

What persephone said is pretty mush what I would agree with.

I have one of each and did agility with both.

The yard type is much tougher in mind and body. But I found I had to be more forceful in my commands and very in control all the time. The good side of that is that she loved it and if she was going the wrong way and I had to YELL at her to turn, she would, and not hold it against you. If she ran to fast on dogwalk and fell off she would bark and just get back on again, no fear at all.

the paddock type is WAY more sensitive to my voice, if I raise it in desperate times to make the turn, she would hesitate and then be unsure and seemed offended by it. She is a lot more sensitive, prefers to work smoother and steady rather than the huff and puff yard one. She also didn't like the noises of see saw and was harder to get around fast.

All that ssid, the first dog I mentioned is a terrible pet, barks more, jumps over 6ft fences, dug holes and no matter how much corrections she got, she just didn't care. The second dog is a great pet, very placid, great with kids, gentle natured.

That does not mean all yard dogs will be good and paddock ones wouldn't either. I have also seen kelpies bred as all rounders be ok as agility dogs too and vice versa.

to pick again, I would chose yard or duel purpose WORKING line dogs. I mean real ones where you go to a farm or sheepdog trial and get one from there. I prefer the nutty types though so the paddocky ones I find are too soft for me in general

[Kavik]

Thanks for the obserations, it is very interesting

Definitely getting working line, WKC bred dog. Kaos is Avenpart and he is the best dog I have owned :D May well go back there again. I realised I don't know that much about the different types of working Kelpies, bloodlines, breeders etc, so thought I would research and look at other breeders/lines before making my choice for the next dog, which is still a while away.

[piper]

Dasha's comment in how they are to live with would describe how it was for the person I know as well. Her yard boy barked over any activity and was a hard dog to live with. Her paddock boy had an off switch and was much quieter.

[dasha]

Go to a yard dog trial and a 3 sheep trial and see which type you like the best. Ask around the sheep trials and they will be able to give you a better idea of lines that are biddable or hard etc.

[Kavik]

Good idea dasha, trials would give me a good opportunity to see the differences. I have been to a yard trial, might try to get to another and a 3 sheep.

[Kavik]

Are there any differences in build between paddock and yard dogs or it is all about the temperament?

[4Kelpies]

My dogs are mainly yard dogs as are most of their ancestors. There is a difference in temperaments between them all but I don't think it has anything to do with their type of work. They are all calm in the house and more active outside, work with enthusiasm and are usually obedient.

Good yard dogs need to be able to come in close and push difficult sheep through the yards, top knot and nose bite when needed. My best all round dog is super calm and a bit lazy. She works with lots of distance in the paddock (sometimes too much and can lose touch with her sheep) but will come in close and make an aggressive sheep back off when she needs to. She doesn't have a lot of presence on sheep and sometimes they tend to take her too lightly and they get a horrible shock when she stands up to them and bites their noses. My worst dog (who has three agility titles)tends to be arrogant in her work and will do things the way she wants - whether it be take a couple of extra jumps before taking the one I want or going the wrong way on sheep. She has lots of presence and can scare sheep with not much effort but isn't at all strong and will wilt away if a sheep stands up to her. She is a lovely pet and could live in a city apartment happily as long as she was walked twice a day. My two most athletic dogs have never done agility but I think they would be excellent if I was ever tempted to take it up again. They have lots of block and cover on sheep, and are very quick but are also obedient. Generally paddock dogs are softer in nature (but not always) and don't like to be bossed around. I'm talking Kelpies here, Border Collies seem to accept any number of commands without shutting down and put up with some horrible treatment that would have a Kelpie deciding the handler was an idiot and it was time to take over and do things the way it wants.

I've heard people say that in order to have a successful yard dog you need to start with one that is good in the paddock.

You will find a range of types in paddock and yard dogs and some bloodlines have a certain look, but you couldn't look at a Kelpie and tell by its build if it was a yard or paddock dog.

Hope this hasn't confused you too much.

Edited July 16, 2011 by 4Kelpies