Left About Turns, Left U Turns And Pivot Turns

[Tassie]

Interesting that it's not used over there Star - the round the back was the only LAT used down here in Tasmania (not sure about the resto of the country ) when I started obedience trialling 20 years ago - and the round the back finish was the only one. When the flip finish and the U LAT came in they were regarded as a bit peculiar .

Agility people who follow the Derrett/Garrett no blind cross handling system tend to avoid the round the back - but it is a required move in Rally O - both as a finish, and as a LAT - and in Dances with Dogs the dog can circle the handler.

[Staranais]

Interesting that it's not used over there Star - the round the back was the only LAT used down here in Tasmania (not sure about the resto of the country ) when I started obedience trialling 20 years ago - and the round the back finish was the only one. When the flip finish and the U LAT came in they were regarded as a bit peculiar .

Perhaps we're the peculiar ones over here, then - we're only permitted the around the back finish (flip finish isn't allowed) and a U-LAT (round the back LAT turn not allowed)! And pretty sure it's always been that way?

[Tassie]

Have you got Rally O over there yet? That will get the U turns and left finishes going :D

[Staranais]

It's just started in the last few years, and starting to pick up momentum. But, unlikely to affect obedience any time soon since the Ob rules define the finish as an around the back finish, so if you do a flip you'll be marked as not completing the exercise (and around the back LAT is always penalised as dog leaves heel position as defined by NZKC in order to complete the turn).

Perhaps we are the weird ones!

Edited July 17, 2011 by Staranais

[Tassie]

Interesting. I'm not sure where the move to current ANKC obedience rules (to allow for both types of LAT and both types of finish) came from - but to get through, they must have been agreed by the bigger States.

[The Spotted Devil]

I have always done around the back LAT and finishes with Ziggy - we follow the GD/SG handling system for agility and Zig has never blind crossed me. I haven't even actively trained him not to. I've been doing a bit more hind end awareness work with him and am considering switching to a pivot LAT - it doesn't confuse him in the least as my footwork is different. He doesn't yet have the skill to do a really nice flip finish so we just use it in training for something different. I do pivot turns and flip finishes with Em and they both come more easily to her. Although I'm not sure leaping straight up and bouncing off my hips with her front paws before landing in heel position will earn her full points ;)

[Tassie]

Rory is a bit like Em in his approach to a flip finish. And yes, I'm sure the dogs can learn to distinguish round the back in obedience and Rally O from what is required of them in agility.

[bedazzledx2]

We call the round the back one the continental turn...ive also heard it called the military turn but then I've also heard the footwork for the about turns called a military turn (ugly and old fashioned),

The continental LAT was the only one used for many years and I think it was the influence of the UK trainers who were responsible for the introduction of the left U turn which requires the dog to remain at heel and execute the same turn as the handler, rather than the dog doing another right about, as in the continental. The continental has largly fallen out of favor as it requires your dog to move out of heel position and also as Tassie said, many agility trainers don't want their dogs going behind the handler. I also don't like that because it's generally taught on lead, you have to pass the lead behind your back but when the lead comes off many people don't fade the hand cues and the dog is left floundering.

I remember when the flip finish came in because I wrote a submission for it from WA when a rules review came in...probably around 15 years ago...wow! doesn't time fly?!!

[Staranais]

Very interesting. Thanks, Bedazzled!

I've never taught a continental LAT. I was wondering for those who do, how do you cue the dog that it's going to be a LAT (and they therefore must do a RAT around your back) vs that it's going to be a 90 degree LT (and they need to flip their hind quarters left to stick with you)? Seems like it would be easy for a dog to make a mistake there since the start of a LAT and LT look very similar.

[Tassie]

It is, Star - my first trialling dog, a BC, used to forge a bit (we didn't train very well then ;) ) and he would sometimes do a very neat round the back left turn (90) so he did a 270 - it used to make me laugh, swondering if the judges would believe what they were seeing .

Thanks for that bit of history bedazzled - I wasn't involved at that sort of level then, so I wasn't sure how it had come in.

[wuffles]

I do U turns but have lost points because they are not tight enough. I retaught them and now have nice tight ones. The only problem I've had with them is that if the dog doesn't have full attention on you (OOH BIRDIE!), they tend to crowd or you bump them in the head. Then again the same thing happens with left turns.

I did teach my girl both turns but have found her U turns are much nicer. She naturally wants to stick in heel position so gets confused with pivot turns.

We have always done a finish around the back but once we get out of Novice I am thinking of changing to a flip She can do both but has improved her flips over the past few months so we might give it a go. Thankfully I have quite an adaptable dog

[RubyStar]

It is, Star - my first trialling dog, a BC, used to forge a bit (we didn't train very well then ;) ) and he would sometimes do a very neat round the back left turn (90) so he did a 270 - it used to make me laugh, swondering if the judges would believe what they were seeing .

I think I posted a video of when Ruby did this, too She looked awfully embarrassed and it took her a few more steps and positions to "get over it"

I do U turns now but they need lots of work. They do lovely pivot work when doing rear end awareness, but fade out the thing to place their feet on and they are back to going huh?! Turning Ruby in a U turn is like trying to U turn a semi trailer!! I never taught Millie the continental, she wouldn't have a bar of leaving heel! She just naturally would turn with me without trying. It needs neatening up, though.

[koalathebear]

I was videoing some training with the dogs (in my Ugg boots LOL) and so I thought I would do a quick video of the two different turns. Hopefully it helps -

. I had to remind Jed with a bit of a hand signal to go around - I never do anything other than a U-turn with him usually, but you get the idea.

Thanks for showing it to us, TerraNik - that was really helpful. My two stay in heel and turn around with me but the passing around the back looks like fun. How do you teach it? I could imagine that done wrong, I'd just end up tripping over my poor dog

[corvus]

Funniest thing, I thought I'd try the 'round the back one out with Kivi this morning and as soon as I turned to face him he just happily walked around behind me without even a vague cue and appeared again in heel position. I tried it a few more times in case it was a fluke and he got it every time. Apparently I had unknowingly already taught him one somewhere along the way. I mixed them up and did some u-turns as well and he didn't show even a moment of hesitation or confusion. Kivi is easily put off if he's unsure of himself, so I guess the skills just kind of translated from all that finding heel training. I often send him around behind to come back into heel if he has swung right out for whatever reason and I just want to reset and try again. I guess it looked pretty similar to him.

[Cala]

Once learnt I think either can look quite polished, all that the dog has to do is to stay as close as possible to your body on the left about turn (Pivot) we call the other the U left about.

Easiest way to teach the Pivot is to have the dog sit in front of you, (on lead) really close (nose to your knees) Take a step backward with your right leg, tell the dog to heel and change the lead behind your back to the other hand. Easy if your dog has already learnt the 'heel position' sometimes a step forward is needed to help him/her around. Once perfected your feet will remain still. I find that most dogs pick this up very quick. Especially if you use food! :D

This is particually good if you have big dogs, danes, mastiffs, wolfhounds etc; which don't do a 'flip' comfortably.

Hope I have explained this well enough.