ruthless Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Bruno's settling in well and learning things pretty quickly. He has one pretty annoying behaviour that I'd like to get rid of though. When he sees other dogs he gets overexcited and wants to go to them. I don't let him so he keeps trying with all his might and he'll start screaming if he gets really frustrated. [it's not aggression, he plays well with other dogs.] I tried to correct him and keep walking but he wasn't improving. I can move to the side and get him to focus on food, but I don't always remember to bring food on our walks! I started group training classes with him two weekends ago. I can see a very slight improvement with him at class, but again, it's distracting him with food. Because of this I haven't been socialising him with new dogs because I don't want to reward his nonsense by letting him off lead for a play. He has a great temperament, I'd hate to break him by keeping him away from other dogs. Is that a concern? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Have you tried "Look at That!"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 (edited) Have you done any focus work with Brutus? To focus on you? Clickers or marker words work really well. If you can make that a default behaviour then take it on the road, it is much easier to get them to focus on you rather than another dog if you have a strong reward history for that first. Much easier than trying to drag him away and much more effective long term than trying to distract with food as they are choosing to focus on you rather than the dog instead of just following food that is put in front of their nose. Pretty similar to what megan said Edited July 12, 2011 by Kavik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 Have you tried "Look at That!"? As I was typing I was thinking I bet Megan's going to ask if I've tried LAT! No, I haven't. I've seen it suggested to other people but I don't know exactly what it is. Do you have a link? Have you done any focus work with Brutus? To focus on you? Clickers or marker words work really well. If you can make that a default behaviour then take it on the road, it is much easier to get them to focus on you rather than another dog if you have a strong reward history for that first. Much easier than trying to drag him away and much more effective long term than trying to distract with food as they are choosing to focus on you rather than the dog instead of just following food that is put in front of their nose. Pretty similar to what megan said I've been working on getting him to look at me, but it's still early days. Using this method doesn't stop him getting excited around other dogs though, does it? It just diverts his attention until they're gone PS His name's Bruno ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Sorry about name, trying to multitask and failing I guess Methods like LAT and those laid out in Click To Calm will help to build value in paying attention to you around distractions. It can become an automatic response where he will see a dog and look at you (this is what I aim for anyway) instead of pulling to try to visit another dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 (edited) What Kavik said. You have to repeat this exercise many, many times, and use it before he goes ape. I use it with my reactive girl and now she often looks at me when something scary approaches, totally relaxed and happy. ETA: My (possibly wrong) instructions. Objective: Thsi exercise gives you two things (I point this out because many people think it is about luring a dog with food, and it isn't): i) Your dog has a new default behaviour (I see the bad/exciting thing and I look at you) ii) It associates the bad/super exicting thing with something good (I stay calm, look at you and get a treat). First off, when he looks at something - anything - say "Look at that!" in a happy voice. Because your dog gets excited and not scared, I'd make it a calm happy voice. Then shove a treat in his mouth (something that is easy to eat, tiny and soft). Repeat a few times. Then, when you think he's got the idea, say "Look at that" and wait a second. If he looks at you he's got it (I get a treat when she says that). If not, repeat more. Then use it when out and about. The trick is to say "Look at that" the nano second he looks at something that normally excites him - you want him to look at you *before* he gets excited and fixates on the other dogs. Thsi might mean that you play the game when the dog is 20m away and keep on playing. If someone is in the distance, I use a combo of "Look at that", treat, "sit", treat, "drop", treat, "look at that", treat etc etc to maintain my dogs focus and keep her working. A working dog is far less likely to react. To reinforce the behaviour you can play the game whenever he looks at something. Don't be stingey with the game. It works because it is conditioning him, so the more you play it the better. And at least one person seems to know I like LAT! Edit on my edit: LAT is described in Control Unleashed, which focuses on agility but is a great resource for gaining control. Edited July 12, 2011 by megan_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted July 12, 2011 Author Share Posted July 12, 2011 Oh yes, I have Click to Calm, don't I? I should read it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Oh yes, I have Click to Calm, don't I? I should read it! Yes, read it! It is very good. I should reread it too, probably lots of good ideas and things I have forgotten or not used but now that I am a better trainer I should try the more advanced stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doglifetraining Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Click for calm is great but you will need to also socialise your dog. If a dog isnt able to socialise off lead regularly it builds pressure, if you dont relieve this pressure it will be very hard to get your dog to focus on you. You need click for calm in conjunction with some off lead time around other bomb proof dogs. Also, how is your dog going to learn how to play and interact appropriately if they dont get to practice? You have to find some people with dogs that will work with you on this. The dogs should be older and able to ignore or correct your dogs unruly behaviour. I would keep him away from adolescent dogs until he has had lots and lots of time with some older dogs. Older dogs will keep things calm and controllable. Maybe some people at your dog club have such dogs that you could go for an off lead walk with. Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Hmmmm I dont agree with all what you said doglifetraining. My dogs rarely go to an off lead park to play with other dogs, in fact its hardly ever. I dont have a need for then to be running with a mob of other dogs, I much prefer for them to socialise with couple of dogs that we know or a dog we dont know, but one at a time. Having said that Ruthless Im more then happy for any of my dogs to socialise with Bruno, I think a on lead walk at first would be great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted July 13, 2011 Author Share Posted July 13, 2011 I have three other dogs that he plays off lead with. His "sister" comes over occasionally also. I'd love for him to meet other dogs and I've had plenty of offers from owners of bomb proof dogs, but I know he'll spazz out when he first sees them so I thought I should wait until he doesn't do that any more before making any arrangements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonElite Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Im sure you know about the teach- train -proof principle. Thats what you need to do here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doglifetraining Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Hmmmm I dont agree with all what you said doglifetraining. My dogs rarely go to an off lead park to play with other dogs, in fact its hardly ever. I dont have a need for then to be running with a mob of other dogs, I much prefer for them to socialise with couple of dogs that we know or a dog we dont know, but one at a time. Having said that Ruthless Im more then happy for any of my dogs to socialise with Bruno, I think a on lead walk at first would be great. Thats great! One dog, a few dogs, whatever, it's better than nothing. I never suggested just going hell for leather to an off lead dog park. I'm talking about carefully chosen dogs for this dog to socialise with- just like you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokelani Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Can I ask, with LAT, do you start the conditioning with no distractions to get the dog used to the behaviour, or do you just go straight out there and find a distraction and then start? I would like to try this with Bosco, but was just wondering if I should start him off at home and click and treat for simply looking at me, or if he needs the distraction in order to be able to look away from it in the first place? Sorry if this sounds a bit confusing, brain knows what it wants to ask, sending it to the keyboard is a different story Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I did a lot of work before taking it out on the road. I used Click to Calm and made sure my dog knew look at me = click/treat (will reread today) = got a good reward history for the behaviour I wanted. Then I started at a distance with dogs across the road (so there was no chance of the dogs meeting at all). At first she would still react but her reaction lessened over time when she realised that she could look at the other dog and then look at me and get click/treat. It is all about giving them the choice. Once this was established I went close, with dogs on the same side of the road but us in a driveway or edge of footpath to give her enough distance. I found using this also helped me to relax in my handling of her around other dogs as I trusted her and our training, that she would look at me instead of reacting. Also that I was looking for a positive thing to reward (looking at me) instead of tensing up waiting for her to lunge or waiting for a chance to correct her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I did a lot of work before taking it out on the road. I used Click to Calm and made sure my dog knew look at me = click/treat (will reread today) = got a good reward history for the behaviour I wanted. Then I started at a distance with dogs across the road (so there was no chance of the dogs meeting at all). At first she would still react but her reaction lessened over time when she realised that she could look at the other dog and then look at me and get click/treat. It is all about giving them the choice. Once this was established I went close, with dogs on the same side of the road but us in a driveway or edge of footpath to give her enough distance. I found using this also helped me to relax in my handling of her around other dogs as I trusted her and our training, that she would look at me instead of reacting. Also that I was looking for a positive thing to reward (looking at me) instead of tensing up waiting for her to lunge or waiting for a chance to correct her. Agree with this!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I agree with the Look At That suggestions We were having issues with my puppy getting very anxious about barking dogs behind fences. She still doesn't like it but now her first reaction is to look up at me rather than whinge/lunge/run. I still carry food on most of my walks but only use it occasionally. I would prefer to 'distract with food' than let a behaviour continue to occur which is self rewarding. With regards to obedience classes, as time goes on you should feel less like you are bribing the dog as your relationship improves. I aim to make ME the most rewarding thing in my dog's life and if that means shovelling food into her mouth to start off with, that's fine! I never stop rewarding my dog for doing the right thing - the key is fading and randomising those rewards so they don't know when to expect them. There is no point fading rewards until the dog understands what is expected of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokelani Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Thanks for all the replies! I am thinking of taking Bosco back to obedience later in the year, so I might get started on this at home and give him a head start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SezzNJunebug Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 (edited) Good thread! I've been looking for something to help Juno's focus on me I have tried LAT a few times when on walks but will make it a consistant part of our training and walks. I have recently joined an obedience club and Juno is over threshold majority of the time so it has felt like a waste. When I asked if I could work with her by myself away from the other dogs to work on her focus I was told she just have to put up with it and get used to it. I think I will work with her using these techniques before going back because I feel it's a complete waste of time and doing more bad than good if she isn't focusing on me! Im sure you know about the teach- train -proof principle. Thats what you need to do here. I have heard of this priciple but still being a newbie how do you achieve proof? Edited July 14, 2011 by Sezz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruthless Posted July 14, 2011 Author Share Posted July 14, 2011 Teach it and train it with no distraction, but proofing is when they can still do it with other dogs around. I think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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