Breeding And Showing

[budgiew]

I am fairly new to the forum and joined to increase my knowledge of dogs in general.Often people are advised to show their dogs before breeding them.Can you explain why this is an advantage to breeding,Also if you were to get dogs from a breeder who's parents were show quality,wold this be enough to start breeding dogs of a good standard.Can you breed good dogs without being involved with showing them.This is just something i am curios about .I am not interested in breeding dogs myself .

[SparkyTansy]

Yes, you can be involved in breeding dogs without showing them. I do not believe that showing dogs is the answer to good breeding...

however... showing dogs can help develop an understanding of the standard, movement, conformation of dogs in general (and why it differs) and breed type. Being involved in that part of the world opens up your eyes to different options, lines, pathways that you might not head down if you don't follow showing.

I also believe that if you do not show dogs, you should stil have a VERY good understanding of the standard and why there is a standard, before breeding. Being a good breeder is made up of more than just showing dogs, but understanding that there is no one aspect to breeding, and that you can always learn more.

In addition, owning two dogs from champion parents does not mean progeny that are good enough to breed from - again, they must meet the standard for this to happen, and not all dogs from the same litter do that. Sometimes, no dogs in a litter from two champions are good enough to breed from, sometimes, allthe pups in that litter are of good enough quality... sometimes, the very best progeny can come from one or two parents that didn't quite make it in the show ring, or they were better in their original workingpurpose.

[Jumabaar]

Showing is not required to breed but I do think spending some time watching the show ring is invaluable. Having a mentor that can look at dogs and point out their strengths and weaknesses- giving names to things such as a straight stifle, weak topline etc.

You need to be able to produce dogs without these faults so that the dogs you produce are free from weakness and live long happy lives. You can see it all at obedience, agility etc, but the show ring makes it clearer with multiple dogs stacked through out the day to compare so it makes learning a little faster an easier. I know many agility people though that have not watched shows, but have understood how conformation can impact how their dog works and will achieve the same result as someone who shows

To be a good breeder you need to see what is out there what their quality is and be able to see if what they produce will complement your lines. So you can go visit peoples kennels, go to shows, go to other sporting competitions such as obedience or agility to find these things. The show ring puts multiple generations of different lines (ideally) on display in a manner that you can compare them. Your assessment is more important than what the judge puts up on the day, so long as you have a good understanding of your breed, which is where a mentor comes into it!

So showing, going to shows is not necessary, but it is a beneficial tool in seeing a selection of dogs in one location. What you do with that is what makes you a good breeder.

[budgiew]

Thankyou,spankytansy and woofen.I understand a bit more now.

Edited July 12, 2011 by budgiew

[Bjelkier]

I agree with a lot of what Sparky says.

No you don't need to show to understand what you are doing and being a showie breeder dosn't mean your dogs will be the next best thing but I believe it sure does help.

I can only speak from personal experiance but when I first started in Samoyeds I thought my first dog was really good. Now I don't think that (offcause he's still the best dog ever but from a breeding perspective he isn't ideal) and he is booked in to be desexed. I would not have learnt what I know now if I hadn't shown, I wouldn't have the breed connections I have either, the people who have taught me everything and are worth their weight in gold.

I shudder to think about how naive I was about the breed before I started showing and my ideas of what makes a good Samoyed great have been dramtically changed, for the better I believe.

We have our first litter planned soon. I guess we will see if all that information has actually sunk in

[Sandra777]

No you don't need to show to breed.

You can take part in sheep dog trials, gun dog trials, sled dog trials and be a great breeder in these fields without going anywhere near a show ring.

You could breed outstanding working guard dogs without caring or needing to care in the slightest about how the dog would do in the show ring.

You could breed the world's greatest winning earth dog trialists without going to a show.

The conformation show ring is (or should be!) a very small part of the big world of dogs.

It depends on what you are breeding for.

[lappiemum]

Part of the reason for showing is that (in theory) a judge is an independent person who (in theory) understand the standard (in theory ;) ) and makes an assessment on each dog presented as to whether they meet the standard, what their strengths are and where they aren't as strong. The idea is that this assessment is behind decisions to breed, although it should be understood that simply putting champions to champions doesn't necessarily produce more champions ;)

In short, there is a term called 'kennel blindness' - where owners and breeders are unable to spot the faults in their own dogs, even though they may be able to spot it in everyone elses ;) The show ring, in part, is ment to be an honest apprasial, albeit very subjectively, of a dog.

The reason why you can't show a desexed animal (unless ofcourse, in the new neuter classes) is because of the connection to breeding. Yes, you can certainly breed without showing, but even if you believe you understand the standard (and a standard, remember, is what defines a breed) it is best to have the external, and honest, opinions of those whose job is to understand your breed, and to be able to assess individual dogs.

This only scratches the surface of breeding, mind you - there are things related to health, lines, type (you can get different types still acceptable within standards) - but the first thing you have to ask if you are planning to be a breeder is why? The best reason is to improve the breed overall - and showing is one way of assessing this. I should add, there are other ways too - for dogs that are bred for specific purposes, like herding or guarding or whatever - but showing assesses against the standard.

Edited July 12, 2011 by lappiemum

[Christina]

There are many ways to increase your knowledge & showing will help for some parts of it all but there is the matter of applying your knowledge & accepting that there is no way to get it all right & perfect. Nature sometimes does its own thing, unfortunately.

One may be good at showing dogs but hopeless when it comes to the breeding part.

One may be an excellent breeder but have no confidence for the show ring however you do need to attend shows & observe to know what your chosen breed is supposed to be like, there is only so much you can learn from books & pictures.

Starting with 2 dogs from show parents & a good breeder is an advantage but does not guarantee uniform or great quality in resulting pups. This is where you find out how much your breeders can advise you on compatibility of particular lines & nature still dictates. So as you can see there is much more to it than the looks.

[jr_inoz]

Breed specialty shows in particular are invaluable for seeing what is good and what isn't in your breed.

There are a few dogs in my breed that win under all breed judges, (who don't know my breed very well at all), that never ever win even a class under a specialist breed judge.

If you want to see what makes a good dog of your breed, go to your breed's specialty show. Personally think that showing at these shows is important too - it is how you know if your dog is of a good standard. Helpful to have them critiqued too which often happens at a specialty.

[Kaffy Magee]

I had my first litter before I learnt to show, not the way I would have liked it but that's what happened. I showed the pup I kept a handful of times but didn't really learn anything as I knew no one and had no mentor. I lost her to snake bite at 18 months. I gained a Dobermann and by showing my Dobermann under the guidance of his breeder I learnt so much, not just about Dobermanns but about dogs in general, structure, type, movement, what makes a good dog and breeding. When I had my second bullmastiff litter I knew more, just from showing my Dobermann. I kept two pups and continued to show. Last year I had another litter and in the 2 years since my last I had doubled if not tripled my knowledge, and formed strong ideas in what i was aiming for and what i liked and didnt like. Yes I read and research but in my opinion the show ring is excellent for learning and teamed with a good mentor is invaluable. I Believe if I just bred and not showed I would have no idea what I was really doing, be able to point out the good/bad/differences in dogs or whether my breeding was going in the right direction.

Obviously if if I had a working dog, gun dog etc I would want to compete in those fields as well. Unfortunately I'm not able to test out what my dogs were originally bred for,lol.

[Greytmate]

I am fairly new to the forum and joined to increase my knowledge of dogs in general.Often people are advised to show their dogs before breeding them.Can you explain why this is an advantage to breeding,Also if you were to get dogs from a breeder who's parents were show quality,wold this be enough to start breeding dogs of a good standard.Can you breed good dogs without being involved with showing them.This is just something i am curios about .I am not interested in breeding dogs myself .

Whether a person is showing dogs, or whether they have a dog that competes or works in the field, the advantages are similar for breeding.

The dog is being tested.

Only by putting a dog to a fair test can we tell which are the champions, which ones are good, and which ones have flaws. That way we know which ones are worth breeding from - with the objective being the betterment of the breed.

If you are not testing your breeding dogs out, you have no objective way of knowing whether you are breeding for the betterment or to the detriment of the breed.

[Muttaburra]

Also in case it hasn't been mentioned, you might purchase a "show quality" pup, and to the best of the breeders knowledge the pup will turn out to be a good example of the breed. There is no guarantee though, and sometimes gumpy pups turn out to be better examples of the breed, while one carefully assessed when young to be "better" is not quite as good.

I would imagine the showing process, training and presenting of a dog would provide some opportunity to see how the dog measures up in terms of response to training, and how well it ultimately conforms to the breed standard, etc. etc.

Then if you decide to go on to breed your dog or bitch, you will have a good idea of what you might be aiming for in outcome according to your own aesthetics.

Being involved in the dog show world also provides opportunity for mentoring and hopefully some good advice about pedigrees and lines that would produce favourable offspring for the dog/bitch which you choose to breed.

[poodlemum]

I am fairly new to the forum and joined to increase my knowledge of dogs in general.Often people are advised to show their dogs before breeding them.Can you explain why this is an advantage to breeding,Also if you were to get dogs from a breeder who's parents were show quality,wold this be enough to start breeding dogs of a good standard.Can you breed good dogs without being involved with showing them.This is just something i am curios about .I am not interested in breeding dogs myself .

Welcome!!! I have been breeding Standard Poodles for nearly 20 years & have never shown. I think part of the reason people advise you to show your dogs before breeding is to get them "known" - I certainly found it a wee bit harder sometimes to place puppies as I was not know in the showring (I did quite a lot of Obedience, though).

Over the last 2 years, a bitch I bred was being campaigned in the showring and I went to quite a few shows, including the Poodle Nationals in March. It's good fun & most of the people are friendly.

[espinay2]

Yes you can breed without showing, but IMO showing provides an added facet to a breeder or potential breeders dog education which assists them in rounding out their knowledge and education.

Note that showing doesnt necessarily mean getting out there every weekend of every year. It may mean campaigning a dog to its title, or showing and attending specialty shows. As mentioned, you may do other things with your dogs as well and showing in conformation shows may be only a part of what you do. Showing IMO though offers more that just the ability to win titles. As mentioned it is a place to see other dogs and a place to meet other people in your breed and in other breeds too. Don't discount the knowledge you get from learning about other breeds and discussing 'dog knowledge' in general with other breeders.

Like many I started out by doing obedience with my dogs. When I started showing part of the criteria I had for the dog I got was that the breeder lived in my area and would be able to mentor me in the show ring. I decided to get a dog of a different breed from my own as at that time there was no one in my breed that could mentor me in that way. I was very lucky in that the breeder I chose was a fantastic mentor and coached me in many things. She helped me to learn to look objectively at dogs. Learning to look at dogs objectively is a skill. To show well you need to be able to separate the emotion of a beloved pet from assessment of the dog as an example of its breed. This is something that a breeder definitely need to be able to do. Not everyone who shows (or breeds) achieves this, but it is a very important skill if you are going to be good at breeding.

Through showing I have also met many breeders in other breeds who are friends, peers and mentors. We talk to each other and we discuss things. We can ask questions of each other and we learn from each other. Without showing this world would likely be closed to me. It is a major benefit and one I am glad I have.

Showing also means for me looking at shows and attending shows in other parts of the world (though not with my dogs). Through shows I have met a lot of people in my breed worldwide who have helped me improve my knowledge of my breed. In my breed, even the farmers in the Pyrenees who are breeders attend shows - even if most years it is just the Nationale Elevage (the big national show for the breed held in the Pyrenees each year). It is their way to be seen and show off their dogs, to see what others are doing, to meet and talk to others in the breed about issues, to stay in touch and not lose sight of the big picture.

That big picture is important. Remember, breeding is not about your individual dogs. It is about the Breed.

[budgiew]

Thankyou everyone.Very interesting and informative.I see how getting together with other breeders at shows or other groups is of great benefit.Some years ago my friend got a Husky pup who grew into a very good dog.His breeder was so impressed with him that she 'borrowed' him back for some shows,and he did very well.He then went on to be used at stud for a while,then went back to being a family pet.

[sandgrubber]

Breeders are obliged to 'improve the breed' . . . but there are many opinions about what constitutes an improvement.

It's important to educate yourself about your breed and about dogs, dog health, dog behaviour, and dog genetics. Showing has both positives and negatives. It allows you to see lots of other dogs and get to know people in your breed circle. It teaches you how judges are interpreting the breed standard . . . sometimes this is confusing because they don't justify their evaluations and a lot of things seem arbitrary. It may also inculcate a sort of "show blindness" that makes you compete to achieve the modern ideal for conformation and turn your attention away from temperament and health.

I think it is more important, as a breeder, to formulate where you want to go with your breed, and the ability to look critically at dogs based on your ideals than it is to be a showie. Eg, if you are not worried about eye colour or tail-set, but are very concerned about whether dogs are calm and make good family members, or whether they can herd sheep, you will find shows are helpful to a degree, but that they wear thin after awhile. If you ever develop kennel blindness and cannot see the faults you would like to improve upon in your dogs, you should hang up your hat as a breeder. But you can critically appreciate dogs without being a showie.

Edited July 12, 2011 by sandgrubber