Opinions On Experience Before Breeding Dogs

[tobie]

I am interested in peoples opinions on what a person should do before becoming a registered breeder and deciding to breed dogs. Do you think they should gain experience showing dogs, learn from more experienced people, etc, etc.

Another post got me thinking about this because I beleive people should gain as much knowledge and experience before jumping into breeding and I was wondering what other peoples opinions are on this. Do you think people should just be able to become a registered breeder and start breeding dogs without any knowledge or experience what so ever. I know people have to start somewhere but was wondering what others thought.

[Atanquin]

I'm not a breeder but think it comes down to common sence if you want to be come a breeder do lots of research talk to breeders go to shows I would at least own a few of the breed I was interested first to gain experience and really think about the idear for a year or two before I started and made sure I was prepared money wise first. It's not something you can just start it's big deal you are brings new lives into the world and you want to give them the best chance at life that you can. Also you have ask why you want to be a breeder that's the big question. :D ( I want to breed englih cocker spaniels one day)

[oakway]

Well we have a real live sensible one in you don't we.

If you want to lean about dogs go purchase the breed of your choice from a registered breeder and go show the dog.

This will be one of the greatest learning curves you will ever get.

You have a show ground full of experienced breeders that will help you all the way as long as you do the right thing.

No better place to start learning than from the bottom up.

We need people like you so come and join us.

[Tapua]

Hi Tobie

Congratulations on asking the right questions. I have been breeding since 1991. In my experience and with hindsight I suggest the following.

1: Settle on a breed you are genuinely interested in and like (preferably love)

2: Commit to learning about the breed while you are showing a puppy, health nutrition and showing requirements. Showing is definately not the be-all and end all there are alot of good dogs in back yards that never get in the ring and plenty of champions who barely deserve their title.Plus remember most pups in the litter go to pet homes and you might get 1 or 2 show quality in a litter. You have a duty of care to the whole litter as a breeder IMO not just the show potential one.

3: During the couple of years you are raising your puppy to breeding age do the MDBA Introduction to Breeding Course - that will give you all the generic basics for breeding.There is also a mandatory very basic one with Dogs NSW if you ar in NSW

4: Find yourself a mentor in the breed you prefer - often that is the breder of your pup.

5: Dont be afraid to ask questions and admit when you are wrong - too much ego is involved in breeding let alone showing and its about the safety and wellbeing of the dogs and pups rather than the ribbons. (again this is only my opinion)

6: Have a good vet whom you trust - when the chips are down your vet is on your side.

I could rabbit on but that will do for starters!

[SoL]

Hi Tobie

You've certainly started out on the right track. Asking questions is the best way of gaining knowledge and knowledge will certainly help.

A big question is why you want to breed. If it's just to produce pups then I would forget it, but if you have a genuine desire to see your chosen breed as strong and healthy (if not stronger and healthier) in the future as it is now, then IMO that is the right attitude to start out with.

Then obviously go sit your exam and take your prefix.

Learn the breed standard. This is your bible. It depicts the "perfect" example of your chosen breed and that's what you strive for. Don't kid yourself though, there will never be such thing as a perfect example, there's always room for improvement.

Learn about your breed and how to look at the conformation of a dog. Is the stifle too straight? Is the back short enough? What about topline and shoulder angulation? What about the all important bite? How should it be presented at show? How should it be gaited and then stacked? Personally I thinking showing your dog is the only way to judge what you've got in your yard against the dogs of your peers. What health tests should be carried out? You should health test ALL of your stock before breeding.

A good mentor is invaluable. They should hold your hand from pointing out how they would choose a show potential pup, to guiding you through puppyhood and show training, to helping you choose mates and teaching about basic genetics, to helping through whelps and even picking potential homes. I am no geneticist and it certainly does my head in at times where I have to sit down and write everything down so I can see it, but a basic understanding of how things work can help you understand what might be thrown in a litter.

Patience is golden. You have to understand that you probably won't even get close to your ideal interpretation of the standard for the first 3 generations or so. So you have to think beyond those first litters, plan way ahead and strive to achieve your goal. Be prepared for a lot of set backs as well - nature has a way of throwing curve balls!

Objectivity is also key. You have to be able to take the blinkers off. Assessing your own stock, being really critical and picking out the faults is the only way you can strive to breed a better example next time as you pick the mate that best counteracts and overcomes those faults. You have to be hard on yourself too. No use keeping a pup that doesn't shape up, no matter how attached you are to it. You run on show "potential" pups, there are no dead certs and shit can happen along the way. God knows the amount of pups we've pet homed only to find they turned out better than the pup we ran on!!! That comes with experience though.

Learn about bloodlines, which you like, which you don't like, which carry health faults, which are sound and reliable, which compliment your lines, which will help you get to where you want to be with the breed. Again this takes experience and time but google can be your best friend with this

Have a fantastic vet and some like-minded friends. They will help you through the bad times (believe me there will be tears) and celebrate teh good times (I hope there are many).

If you are serious about it, you will invest time, money, blood, sweat and tears and there will be times you will ask yourself why you bother. But it's worth it, I promise. Good luck if you decide to go ahead with it

[Crazy Daisy]

That is an excellent post SoL. Thank you.

I am interested in maybe breeding in a few years so this is all very interesting.

I think the best advice I have been given so far is 'you can't keep everything'. It is a very hard thing to do but if a dog doesn't work out, for any reason, it is better to find them a loving pet home than to breed from them and start your breeding program off badly.

[budgiew]

When you breed any animal you should have a love and respect for the animal and be responsible for their health and welfare,At the very least research the basics of breeding in books internet and then build knowledge from other more experienced in the field.There are always things you learn from experience as well.Anyone who will not take time to seek out knowledge or take on advise from others should reconsider breeding animals.

[JulesP]

I just think the newbie breeder needs some people willing to guide and help them.

I didn't show (did obedience), didn't spend years researching etc I just approached my breed club for help, which I was given freely. As well as the breed club, I was helped by the stud dog owner and by one of the people that booked a puppy.

I have no doubt I would have been on here asking all sorts of questions! That is what the forum is for. It is about exchange of info.

[budgiew]

I just think the newbie breeder needs some people willing to guide and help them.

I didn't show (did obedience), didn't spend years researching etc I just approached my breed club for help, which I was given freely. As well as the breed club, I was helped by the stud dog owner and by one of the people that booked a puppy.

I have no doubt I would have been on here asking all sorts of questions! That is what the forum is for. It is about exchange of info.

You will find people on here that will help you.You just have to hang in there.I still find this forum a bit daunting at times but i am still asking questions,You seem like a nice caring dog owner otherwise you would not be here asking for help.I think you are on the right track so far.Good luck with your dogs .

[Miss Danni]

I like the German SV system where you basically have to serve an "apprenticeship" with an established Breeder before you can get your own kennel prefix.

You "hold" the Breeders dogs (but dont legally own them - it's a bit like our Breeders terms), show and train them and under the Breeder's prefix and guidance, you will whelp a litter(s) and raise it.

That way, the Breeder is still responsible for their animals and their pups but the new person gains mentoring and experience. GSD litters are also assessed while with the "holder" by a Breed Warden who is available for mentoring and assistance, in addition to the Breeder.

I think that it is too easy here to get a prefix. I'd like to see at least that you have to pass some kind of short education course, not just an open book exam, which is a joke. If you cant commit to some learning, maybe you should not be breeding dogs.

[SparkyTansy]

Agree with you Miss Danni. I find that the open book course is too easy, and while it at least encourages people to go down the right path and become registered, if they are not committing to the learning that goes with it, do we really want them "contributing" to the breeds they breed.

In Europe they have breeders courses that you must attend and pass before breeding a litter.

The fact that we don't even cover basic structure and movement as part of breeding, or even judging, astounds me.

[Christina]

Maybe stating the obvious here but if possible try & find someone who will let you see their dog having puppies. I know people that have said they want to breed & then they have got hysterical or practically fainted when it came to the birth.

[**Super_Dogs**]

Maybe stating the obvious here but if possible try & find someone who will let you see their dog having puppies. I know people that have said they want to breed & then they have got hysterical or practically fainted when it came to the birth.

That is a fantastic point. It is not for everyone. I think you need to be a reasonable calm person that does not stress easily.

My first litter I was very calm however this was not the case for my OH. Whenever I walked away he kept saying "the puppy is coming" "the puppy is coming" - when it was not!!!! When the puppy actually did come he could not watch as he thought it was disgusting.

[OSoSwift]

Buddy I am thinking that may be my husband when the time arrives!

Luckily I have no issue with whelpings and have whelped litters for other people as well as revived puppies after Caesars etc.

If it was just him I think running around and flapping would be the most likely senario!

[jr_inoz]

I like the German SV system where you basically have to serve an "apprenticeship" with an established Breeder before you can get your own kennel prefix.

You "hold" the Breeders dogs (but dont legally own them - it's a bit like our Breeders terms), show and train them and under the Breeder's prefix and guidance, you will whelp a litter(s) and raise it.

That way, the Breeder is still responsible for their animals and their pups but the new person gains mentoring and experience. GSD litters are also assessed while with the "holder" by a Breed Warden who is available for mentoring and assistance, in addition to the Breeder.

I think that it is too easy here to get a prefix. I'd like to see at least that you have to pass some kind of short education course, not just an open book exam, which is a joke. If you cant commit to some learning, maybe you should not be breeding dogs.

Don't even need the exam in SA - I filled out the form, paid my money and two weeks later, got my letter back with my kennel prefix.

Very easy....

Having said that - I like the German system you have mentioned above.

[Zayenah]

Maybe stating the obvious here but if possible try & find someone who will let you see their dog having puppies. I know people that have said they want to breed & then they have got hysterical or practically fainted when it came to the birth.

I like that advice, my mentor is interstate so I had someone local letting me attend births. Mind you I still nearly fainted when it was finally time for my girls litter and I had to do the cords, I have improved since then though

[dancinbcs]

If you are really serious about breeding, select a breed and go to some dogs shows, preferably Breed Specialty shows or Royals where they have bigger numbers of the breed. Buy a catalogue and study the dogs. Talk to people and tell them you are interested in getting into the breed and try to find someone with lots of experience that you find easy to talk to. Ask lots of questions about the dogs and they will talk to you for hours and hours.

Study the breed profiles here on DOL, try to to find photos (google) of prominent dogs from the breed and study the pedigrees. Study the breed standard that can be looked up on the ANKC website. Compare all the dogs you see and old photos to what the standard says. Keep asking questions and hanging around dog shows. Offer to help out at shows, even if it is just holding dogs outside the ring and watch how the dogs are groomed and handled. Keep asking questions and let it be known that you are after a puppy.

After a few shows people will start to realise you are serious and there will usually be a few who offer to help you find a really good puppy to start with and hopefully the one who does or the breeder of your puppy will become your mentor. It is easier to get a nice male to show because breeders usually keep more females for themselves. If you start with a male show him and build up a good reputation. Join the breed club and go to meetings. Once people know and trust you it is much easier to get a good female. Sometimes a newcomer will be offered a female puppy first in partnership with their mentor and this can be a great arrangement, just make sure you really like and trust the person.

You don't need a breeders prefix until you have your first female. This is the time to organise that and read as much as you can on dog breeding. So at a minimum you will have been involved in the breed for at least a couple of years before planning your first litter. I had 5 years of showing/obedience before breeding my first litter. By this stage you should understand the breed standard, know all about health testing, bloodlines within the breed and different types bred by different lines. You also need to understand basic dog structure and movement and be able to recognise any structural faults that will affect how a dog functions.

A good and experienced mentor will still be needed to discuss what all those names on the pedigrees are about. They will be able to tell you what those dogs were really like and what problems or virtues can be attributed to which dog.

A lot of the research can be done before you even get your first puppy. There is a young Doler who plans to breed my breed and she is being mentored by a me and another breeder. She has done heaps of research already, attended shows, studied photos and pedigrees and is still a couple of years off being in a position to actually get a puppy. By the time she is ready she will have no problem getting off to a good start with lots of help because she is already showing a huge dedication to the breed.