Management Of Large Litters

[Alyosha]

I have done a quick search but haven't found one, so thought we could use a thread discussing different ways to manage large litters. Anyone up for it?

There are obviously various tried and true ways that breeders deal with large litters, and sharing some of those methods, ones that work and ones that don't, is a great way to help out newer breeders, and people experiencing larger litters than they have before.

This is a topic dear to my heart at the moment with our litter of 12 being born a few days ago to a maiden bitch...

As we have friends who recently had a large litter as well I have followed their example and divided our pups into two groups of six. Six pups are much easier for the dam to handle in the box at a time, and there are enough teats to go 'round. They get swapped onto mum every two hours.

I feel so lucky that If we spoke to them about it, otherwise I would be really struggling at the moment. I passed the idea onto a friend overseas who recently had 14 pups and it also helped her a great deal.

So we have a heated box / towel lined laundry basket with hot water bottle - a heat pad would work the same. Half the pups stay in there while the other half are with mum. I keep that box next to the whelping box, but pups are covered with a towel. If she wants to stick her nose in she can. If they are full and warm they don't cry so (hopefully) mum won't come looking for them - she'll be busy with the group she has.

I can see this system not working quite so well if a dam was not quite as devoted as she could be, you could run the risk of rejection. Would it be better, if she was going to reject, that she reject part of the litter instead of the whole lot? Surely the less that need hand raising the better. Or would you be tempting fate and would it be best to try and keep the whole lot with her?

It also may fail if she was too devoted and couldn't bear to be separated from some of her pups.

We had an added complication of a slow start to Mum's milk supply - fatigue etc from a large delivery, retained placenta etc. So I have topped up the pups in the meantime. With the system of two groups, I can leave a group on mum for two hours, then take them off and top them up with a tube feed. They then go in the heated box full and warm while the other group go onto mum. Two hours later the process is repeated, with the other group getting a top up.

This saves tube (or bottle) feeding the whole litter every two hours, which is a very draining and time consuming process.

Deos anyone else have any experience or ideas to share that may just help someone out when they're up to their elbows in puppies??

[underfoot]

Fantastic thread idea and perhaps worth a pinning. We are due in two weeks and a maiden bitch who looks to be having a large litter. We are having xrays later this week to check. I will be watching this thread with great enthusiasm to see any tips or advice for helping mum (and me) to raise a happy, healthy litter.

Fenugreek for bringing on Milk is the first tip (I even used it when pregnant and it was brilliant).

[Bisart Dobes]

No - I would never remove puppies from their mother unless I absolutely had to.

The puppies are so vulnerable in those first few days they must have thier mother curled around them, stimulating them, licking them. This maintains their body temp which they have no control over. It is essential that they do not become chilled which by removing them you do risk. They must have her warm body constantly available to stop chilling. They must have constantly available a supply of rish warm milk. They need to sleep, wake, nurse, be stimulated to empty and sleep.

I am an advocate of the theory - "The more you interfere the less the bitch will do".

To stimulate milk production a top diet must be a priority for your bitch her whole life not just when she is pregnant. Adding fenugreek to the diet of your pregnant bitch does seem to help milk production - 1 to 2 tsp a day after mated.

The Billinghurst Milk Drink - this I start with our girls at about week 7 - have not had one refuse it yet and never an issue with the runs. It does however seem to have milk dripping when they are ready to feed pups which is what we want.

250ml milk (cow or goat)

1tsp honey

1 tsp flaxseed oil

1 raw egg (or 2 egg yolks)

1 or 2 junket tablets

plus multi B & C Vit

Blend it and keep at body temp for about 10 minutes for the junket to work.

I always allow my girls to eat as many placentas as they want to as well, just in case they decide to go off their food after whelping (hasn't happened yet) - the placentas and milk drink will get them through several days without losing condition.

I have had one maiden bitch not cope with 12 puppies to start but once her Vit C levels were back up she was fine. I didn't however remove her puppies from the box - I just took half off her teats while the other half fed. Once she had slept, relaxed, Vit C levels back up and had a feed herself she took over and never looked back.

[fifi]

I divide the litter in half, they are in a large plastic tub next to the whelping box with a heat source at one end, and do the one or two hourly rotation for feeds.

But seeing as we live in the whelp box for three weeks 24/7, if mum is settled & babies are fed & sleeping, I'll scoop them all together so they have plenty of time curled next to mum.

It does get harder as they get older, the stampede onto the poor mum is quite and you feel so sorry for her. The mum will hop out of the box more frequently if she's had enough, so sometimes they need to be encouraged to hop back in and just a few at a time put on. (easier said than done once they are mobile and vocal !!!)

Nutrition is very important and bitches are fed small meals at least four times a day, with milk/egg/yoghurt drinks and fresh water available all the time.

You find you'll work it out as you go, every mum & every litter and breed is different.

ETA; mum will produce to the amount of need, so unless there is a problem with supply or mastitis or ill thrift puppies, I wouln't supplement unless there was a need. and that's where good nutrition and fluid intake is important for mum. the more you top up, the less milk her body will produce...its a supply & demand thing.

By the way...CONGRATS Aloysha :D

fifi

Edited July 9, 2011 by fifi

[schwarzbear]

I had a litter of 6 boys and 6 girls in November. What I did was to put ribbons on all the girls and marked the boys with nail polish. I could see at a glance who the puppies were. Now I know you can get small newborn collars I will be going that way.

Beside the whelping box I had two plastic containers on wheels you can get them from the cheap warehouses. I put a piece of vet bed in each then a hot water bottle wrapped in a towel and then another towel to drape over the top. As you always get piggies in a litter I took 6 puppies who were the bigger ones off the mother and put them in the first container then I bottle fed each pup when finished put in the second container. I sit on a milk crate while doing this good height. This way I knew where I was up to. Never completely filled each puppy. Once all 6 had been fed and the ones on the mother had fallen of the teats would return the 6 to Mother for her to top up and toilet etc. This way Mum was never stressed mind you she watched me like a hawk with her precious babies. I would feed 4 times a day. Mother was also being fed 4 times a day she is a food hog and loved it.

I always made sure the smaller ones had first go at the teats. This worked well for me. Must say ended up with a very even litter.

What I did find though when they got older the Mum would wait for me to clear a path for her to hop in the whelping box she was anxious about treading on one. I do not take my Mothers away they are with the pups of course with time out until the pups are ready to go to their new homes.

[Jetpoint GSP]

Ok I have a question - the pups haven't even arrived yet but it's been something i've been trying to figure out for a while.

When you take your bitch/pups to the vet in the first week or two I'm guessing you can just put the pups in their washing basket and off you go. But how on earth am I supposed to get god knows how many 6 week old GSP's to the vet for their vacc's??? I have a landcruiser but how do I contain them?

Can anyone tell me what they've done in the past?

[~Midniara~]

I once had a maiden give birth to 11 puppies. I did not intervene at all and all pup's thrived and put on weight and lived on to be happy and healthy Belgians. Mum had plenty of milk and coped very well. In fact she still looked stunning when the pups were six weeks old. Had it not being for her saggy boobs she would've been gorgeous enough to go in the show ring.

I fed mum a complete raw diet and started weaning the pups onto the same diet when they were almost 4 weeks old.

ETA, I also had ribbons around the pups so that I could tell them apart.

Edited July 9, 2011 by ~Midniara~

[piper]

Jetpoint, I went through this with 9 border collie babies 2 days ago. I used a vari kennel in the back of my vehicle ad took my show trolley. Got there and transferred all puppies to the trolley, put the crate on top. Wheeled them inside, put the crate on the ground and removed pups from trolley one at a time and placed them in the crate once done.

A second crate would have helped as they were a bit crowded in the one 36" vari kennel but it was only a short trip.

[~Midniara~]

Ok I have a question - the pups haven't even arrived yet but it's been something i've been trying to figure out for a while.

When you take your bitch/pups to the vet in the first week or two I'm guessing you can just put the pups in their washing basket and off you go. But how on earth am I supposed to get god knows how many 6 week old GSP's to the vet for their vacc's??? I have a landcruiser but how do I contain them?

Can anyone tell me what they've done in the past?

I just put mine in the dog trailer on one visit and on another visit I just popped them in the back of our Ford Territory which had a Cargo barrier to stop the pups from climbing into the car.

Do you have a couple of crates that you can put them in?

eta; I also used my show trolley to wheel my pups into the vets.

Edited July 9, 2011 by ~Midniara~

[**Super_Dogs**]

Ok I have a question - the pups haven't even arrived yet but it's been something i've been trying to figure out for a while.

When you take your bitch/pups to the vet in the first week or two I'm guessing you can just put the pups in their washing basket and off you go. But how on earth am I supposed to get god knows how many 6 week old GSP's to the vet for their vacc's??? I have a landcruiser but how do I contain them?

Can anyone tell me what they've done in the past?

I was very lucky and my vet came to me. :D I was so grateful when he offered as I was also wondering how I was going to manage! I can imagine it would help to have a few helpers.

[Rebanne]

But how on earth am I supposed to get god knows how many 6 week old GSP's to the vet for their vacc's??? I have a landcruiser but how do I contain them?

Can anyone tell me what they've done in the past?

my vet is coming to me when it's time to vaccinate and microchip

[Alyosha]

Great idea guys. I'm wondering if I can sweet talk my vet into doing the same!!

[Baileys mum]

I've recently had a litter of 9 & I also had the mobile vet come to me to do vaccs & microchips.

I didn't bother with splitting the litter in half, my bitch had heaps of milk & I just made sure I kept feeding her 4 times a day, aswell as giving her heaps of water, yoghurt & goats milk.

I also weighed the puppies twice a day in the first couple of weeks, & made sure the pups that hadn't gained much & the smaller pups got a chance to feed on the best teats.

I started weaning the pups at 3 weeks old to help my bitch out,as by that stage I could see she was starting to struggle a little.

I also got some of the new puppy ID collars from Sways whelping supplies...absolutely fantastic for Id'ing a large litter.

Edited July 10, 2011 by Baileys mum

[angelsun]

13 pups in a German Pinscher litter. None moved or sorted, only kept a close eye on to be sure the little ones were getting their share. Being weighed twice a day, it was easy to do this and top up with formula when needed. Pups ate in shifts and this was a first time mom, so no drama there. All pups thrived and survived, although they were weaned at an exceptionaly early age to reduce the stresses on the mom.

[hilaryo]

I don't have experience with a big litter but imagine it would be very daunting....

In regards to the milk supply. The more the pups feed the more milk she will produce given she is getting enough calories and fluid. I would definitely feed your girl 4 times a day and if she is not drinking enough try adding puppy milk or formula to her water.

Totally agree with Baileys Mum's comment about weighing and ensuring pups gaining the least weight get a helping hand getting onto the best teats.

Good luck

[zoiboy]

Ok I have a question -

When you take your bitch/pups to the vet in the first week or two I'm guessing you can just put the pups in their washing basket and off you go.

Can anyone tell me what they've done in the past?

For both litters we have had here the vet comes to us for the post whelping check up and also for

microchiping and vacination. I get the vacination book a couple of days before so they are all filled

out ready. The pups are confined to the whelping area until they have had their turn and then out in

the yard with them until all are done.

The first time round it was pretty quick, as with only 8 it really was easy. The second time we had 13

and that took a bit longer :laugh:

[Kaffy Magee]

I had 2 large litters at the same time. One of 11 and one of 9, 4 days apart. I'm not sure how I did it to be honest, but I would take 1 from the 11 and put with the 9 to make 10 on each bitch. I also supplemented. My girls didn't seem to have alot of milk and after the first lot being born and losing weight in the first 2-3 days I didn't want to leave it any longer for her milk to come in properly. So all pups had a combination of mums milk and supp and I started weaning from 2-3 weeks and boy did they love it! There was no way I was taking 20 pups to my vet, lol, so he came to me for vacc and microchipping, however I did have to take 15 in for vasectomies/ tubals, at 8 weeks. I just did 5 each day over 3 days. I'm looking forward to having only one litter next time, lol.

[Alyosha]

20 pups Kaffy???

[Miss Danni]

One of our girls has had very large litters - 10, 13, 11 - and it looks like she has passed this fecundity onto her daughters

The way that I manage them as little bubs is firstly to mark them as soon as they are clean and dry (we use a white marker pen because I dont like collars on them), weigh them then and every 12 hours. That way you can quickly identify anyone that is having an issue and can concentrate on them. I also let Mum eat as many placentas as she wants, I just make sure that I know how many are out and if any are retained and give her a shot of Oxy when she is finished.

I dont split the litter or seperate them from Mum, except for when I am changing the bedding in the box and she gets kicked outside for a wee and some Vitamin D, as she gets too upset.

I will supplement feed where required, but because I am with the litter 24/7, if she has enough milk, it is just as easy to make sure that the littlies get the teats that are the fullest, while the pups doing the best get moved onto the more difficult teats (or when they are a few days older, on the other side of the box so that the little ones get a head start).

Most pups will drop a little bit of weight in the first 12 hours, but I want to see that they are robust and feeding and putting weight back on after that, otherwise they are on my intervention list. Of course any pup struggling to feed will get intervention straight away.

I ensure that Mum gets lots of fluids and eats very well, small meals often. Lots of goats milk eggflips with Nutragel, yogurt, Biolac and of course, fresh water! I also put her on Protexin, which she will eat straight from the syringe and the pups get some from the end of my finger once they are a few days old. They will also get Nutrigel off my finger once they are about 3 days old, or earlier if necessary to give them a boost.

Once the pups are 3 weeks old, I start weaning them to give Mum a hand and they are off her by the time they are in their 5-6th week.

The most "fun" for me is trying to start toilet and obedience training 10 or so pups - not much fun really!

When they are vaccinated, I have a built-in crate in my car that has a centre divider, or they go into 2 compartments in the dog trailer and as they are done, they are moved into the empty compartments. Microchipping and tattooing are usually done at home, so no issues there.

I need a holiday when these large litters have gone to their new homes!

[Bokezu]

No - I would never remove puppies from their mother unless I absolutely had to.

The puppies are so vulnerable in those first few days they must have thier mother curled around them, stimulating them, licking them. This maintains their body temp which they have no control over. It is essential that they do not become chilled which by removing them you do risk. They must have her warm body constantly available to stop chilling. They must have constantly available a supply of rish warm milk. They need to sleep, wake, nurse, be stimulated to empty and sleep.

I am an advocate of the theory - "The more you interfere the less the bitch will do".

To stimulate milk production a top diet must be a priority for your bitch her whole life not just when she is pregnant. Adding fenugreek to the diet of your pregnant bitch does seem to help milk production - 1 to 2 tsp a day after mated.

The Billinghurst Milk Drink - this I start with our girls at about week 7 - have not had one refuse it yet and never an issue with the runs. It does however seem to have milk dripping when they are ready to feed pups which is what we want.

250ml milk (cow or goat)

1tsp honey

1 tsp flaxseed oil

1 raw egg (or 2 egg yolks)

1 or 2 junket tablets

plus multi B & C Vit

Blend it and keep at body temp for about 10 minutes for the junket to work.

I always allow my girls to eat as many placentas as they want to as well, just in case they decide to go off their food after whelping (hasn't happened yet) - the placentas and milk drink will get them through several days without losing condition.

I have had one maiden bitch not cope with 12 puppies to start but once her Vit C levels were back up she was fine. I didn't however remove her puppies from the box - I just took half off her teats while the other half fed. Once she had slept, relaxed, Vit C levels back up and had a feed herself she took over and never looked back.

I so agree with everything you say! I would never remove the puppies, nature is wonderful, we really don't need to interfere unless there are problems, its amazing how well our girls can cope, please don't underestimate them.