New Puppy Bonded To Other Dog

[jacqui835]

Re-posted from puppy problem thread as I think they really need help.

A colleague at work has just added a 2nd puppy to their family, a supposed belgian shepherd mix of all things. Anyway, they already had a labrador and the plan was for the puppy to keep the older dog company - whilst also being a new member of the family. Well the puppy absolutely adores the lab, but it doesn't really have any interest in the owners, like, runs right past them to greet the other dog, follows the other dog everywhere and only wants to interact with the other dog. I've seen it, and it's amazing, I have never seen a dog that has so little interest in people. You can't get it's attention with loud noises or anything, and if you have food, it obviously wants it but won't directly address the people - like it will just keep walking past. It waits until the lab has some, and then goes and tries to steal some from his mouth - which often means it doesn't get any treats.

They have asked me to try and help, because now they are starting not to like the puppy - it just lives in their house without having anything to do with them. Their other dog loves them and is very well-trained, he is definitely more people oriented and whilst he obviously likes the puppy, the people come first for him and they were hoping the new puppy would be the same.

But here's the thing. They both work full-time, and the lab is the one raising this puppy. I asked them how much time they spend alone with the puppy, and they said none. They said they were lucky if they spent more than 3 hours a day with both dogs during the week - but all day on the weekends. It's almost 12 weeks old now, and I said they need to start spending alone time with it and trying to build a relationship, and they have started taking the new puppy for a walk in the mornings alone but they are very time poor. Plus the puppy really cries if you separate it from the lab - like howls.

It's not going well at all though, and they have started looking to rehome the pup. They have had people come to see the pup, but leave empty handed because although it's not scared or aggressive with people, you have to hold it still to be able to pat it, and it complains and whines the whole time until it can escape and run back to the other dog. So now they are talking about giving it up to the pound.

This is obviously their fault, but I have no idea whether it's reversible, or what steps they should take to try and achieve this. Has anyone had any experience with this sort of thing? They got it when it was 8.5 weeks old, and it was more affectionate with them the day they met than it is now; it just doesn't want anything to do with humans.

If you need anymore information let me know and I'll try and get it. They are trying the morning walk thing for a week or so before they make anymore decisions.

PS Both dogs are walked together in the evenings.

[persephone]

If they are so time poor ..

Pup has obviously been left outside with teh lab... given the bare basics of attention from the humans .. and is happy with its 'pack' poor dogs..

I would suggest a professional - if they are willing to go that road ... they may have an idea ..

rehoming a non- people oriented pup will be hard

[Agility Dogs]

I had this problem with my two to begin with. I was clueless, the dogs didn't know their names at 4 months of age, but they did like 'people time'. (yes, two puppies ).

We sadly had to put one to sleep at 7 months, but between 4 and 7 months we started training the dogs daily, seperating them at every opportunity and by the time Rex was PTS we had actually sorted his behavioural issues.

Then we created a similar (although not nearly as bad) problem when our next dog came into the house. He was trained from day 1, but was still more strongly bonded to our other dog than he was to us. Again, it took work, but he now (he is 5, but hey....) has a lot more value on me than he does our other dog.

It can be done, even from the point that you are describing, but it takes work and a lot of it. 3 hours a day should be plenty though - just needs to be time well spent.

FTR, my current pup was not allowed to interact with the other two until she was at a stage I was happy with. No such problems this time around.

ETA - Susan Garrett's Ruff Love is a great book to help with this kind of thing.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Agility Dogs

[W Sibs]

Thing is that they need to find time or make time to sort this problem out. Are they willing to do that though?

[kiesha09]

Have they taken their puppy to training?

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Puppy was too young at 8.5 weeks, we don't rehome pups until they are 10 weeks. Now blaming the puppy and the other dog for their failings is just typical of people. Makes me sick. They wanted a bond, now its developed and they still aren't happy. Selfish and ignorant people abound, and that's the problem.

[jacqui835]

Puppy was too young at 8.5 weeks, we don't rehome pups until they are 10 weeks. Now blaming the puppy and the other dog for their failings is just typical of people. Makes me sick. They wanted a bond, now its developed and they still aren't happy. Selfish and ignorant people abound, and that's the problem.

8.5 weeks is not too young, especially for larger breeds. Almost everyone I know got their dogs at 8 weeks and they're all fine (mine included), I have never seen anything like this before.

They wanted the dogs to be friends, but what they have is one dog who loves them and the puppy, and a puppy who loves the dog but is indifferent to humans, there's a HUGE difference. They were ignorant, but they're not selfish or bad people. They are not blaming the puppy, and they came to me asking for help. The reason they are looking at giving the puppy up is because it is growing into an impossible animal to own (imagine a dog that has no fear but no interest in humans), and they know they're at fault so they think they need to find it a new home - even if that new home is the pound.

Thanks for the tips agilitydogs, I will try and find more information about that book.

[Mags]

We have always found an older dog helping the puppy learn house rules is very helpful not something to be concerned about. It does not negate the need to have one on one time with the puppy though. If they are so time poor that they have not spent time with the puppy then a puppy was probably not the best choice but given they have already made it they can of course work with it. Does their lab have good manners, walks well on a lead, recalls, sits when asked, stays etc. Because if it does they can use the older dog to model acceptable behaviour for the puppy. But it will take time and it will take work. What are they doing to socialise the puppy to other people and other dogs?

[jacqui835]

We have always found an older dog helping the puppy learn house rules is very helpful not something to be concerned about. It does not negate the need to have one on one time with the puppy though. If they are so time poor that they have not spent time with the puppy then a puppy was probably not the best choice but given they have already made it they can of course work with it. Does their lab have good manners, walks well on a lead, recalls, sits when asked, stays etc. Because if it does they can use the older dog to model acceptable behaviour for the puppy. But it will take time and it will take work. What are they doing to socialise the puppy to other people and other dogs?

The lab is a wonderful dog. He's not desexed but plays beautifully with my dog (who also isn't desexed), is well trained and walks well on a lead. They are taking the puppy for walks each day with the other dog (and alone in the mornings now) and because it's cute and a puppy, lots of people are wanting to pat it. It just doesn't really respond to them, and sticks to the other dog like glue.

I told them they need to spend more time alone with the pup, and they asked how they should do that - ie, what do they do with their other dog during this time? To get the puppy alone, should they be locking the other dog outside or something? Because if the lab is anywhere near the puppy, the pup will try as hard as possible to get to the lab. If they do lock the lab outside, well that doesn't seem fair to the lab? And also, the pup will undoubtedly carry on like a pork chop again trying to get to the lab.

[Pudel]

The lab is a wonderful dog. He's not desexed but plays beautifully with my dog (who also isn't desexed), is well trained and walks well on a lead. They are taking the puppy for walks each day with the other dog (and alone in the mornings now) and because it's cute and a puppy, lots of people are wanting to pat it. It just doesn't really respond to them, and sticks to the other dog like glue.

I told them they need to spend more time alone with the pup, and they asked how they should do that - ie, what do they do with their other dog during this time? To get the puppy alone, should they be locking the other dog outside or something? Because if the lab is anywhere near the puppy, the pup will try as hard as possible to get to the lab. If they do lock the lab outside, well that doesn't seem fair to the lab? And also, the pup will undoubtedly carry on like a pork chop again trying to get to the lab.

Taking the 2 dogs on separate walks may help. and alternating who takes who. Obedience classes for the puppy away from the other dog. Take the adult dog for a long walk wit one person and spend that time bonging with the puppy, again alternate, but it may be an idea to have one person do the adult dog stuff and the other the puppy stuff for a few days in a row. I am no training expert, but they are the ways I see you could separate 2 inseparable dogs without making the other jealous.

[Steve]

They need to take the puppy away from the older dog and have training times. You cant train a puppy with another dog.

Of course the pup wants the older dog's company more than people because its not getting any reward from being with the people.

Rather than them looking at what the pup is doing they need to look at what they are doing.

[redangel]

and they know they're at fault so they think they need to find it a new home - even if that new home is the pound. (Quote)

Can u see anything wrong with this picture?

a. The poor hapless pup has done nothing wrong: they accept is it their fault, and apathetically think they are powerless to do anything to correct this, such a a commendable attitude (insert sarcasm here)

b. The pound is not a home. It is a dumping ground (with exceptions) for poor half grown dogs that have had ignorant , then apathetic owners who want to clean the slate (and their lives) of the furry mistake they have made.

c. With respect to statistics many of these people go on to get another puppy of another breed with the misconception that maybe it was the pups breed or misbreed was a major contributing factor to the 'mistake". Hindsight after the puppy is altered once the mistake is 'rehomed' and not around anymore.

d. "Didnt have time for it " and "it never bonded to us" is contrived B#!T that is the most overused phrases in the shelter drop off lines........

e. How would their judgement of a "good home" factor into this??? lets face it they thought they were doing this pup a favor????

So sick of it...I have a relative that has so far rehomed 5 such dogs that failed to raise themselves into well socialled and trained animals for them. I have a dream..a dream where people like this could be registered and banned from dog ownership until they have been 'correctly dog socialized"...unfortunately there isnt a pound big enough to house these people until they do.

I pray this pup gets a second chance with a real dog person who understands dogs are not akin to whitegoods in the home.

[redangel]

If they want to help this puppy perhaps they should start taking it away from the lab for periods of time, gradually lengthening the time, using positive reinforcement to hold is attention away from the fact it is away from the other dog. Invest in a dog behaviorist and commit to some training/obedience...seems to me this dog hasnt found its purpose or an active role in its household. How could it? Its boundaries and positive contact has all come from the other dog, now its only craving what it trusts. What they need to commit to is time: having a dog is more than a night stroll with pup on a leash.

Maybe they need to send the Lab away temporarily so they can solely focus on correcting this mistake they have made. Any case, they need to commit time to this or the battlew is lost before it starts

[sandgrubber]

They said they were lucky if they spent more than 3 hours a day with both dogs during the week - but all day on the weekends. It's almost 12 weeks old now, and I said they need to start spending alone time with it and trying to build a relationship, and they have started taking the new puppy for a walk in the mornings alone but they are very time poor. Plus the puppy really cries if you separate it from the lab - like howls.

I'd guess it's reversible, but reversing may take an investment in time they don't have.

When you say 3 hrs a day, is that 3 quality hours, or just 3 hrs being in the house when the dogs are there . . . and the rest of the time the dogs are alone. If it's quality time, I'd say they could fix things with a bit of help, unless the pup has a built-in temperament that isn't people friendly. Simply separating the dogs is likely to produce separation anxieties . . . maybe they can find someone to help them figure out how to make being alone with them fun for the pup.

I feel a bit sorry for the Lab, too.

[Bisart Dobes]

Sounds to me like this puppy would be better off in another home, sadly.

What they need to do (as said above) takes time and commitment and it sounds like they just don't have either.

Belgians aren't an easy breed to own - I wouldn't say they are a beginners dog / breed. Yes, I know you said Xbred but the belgian temperament traits are strong. Can you find a Belgian breeder in SA to help them with breed specific advice ? This is where I would start.

Poor puppy, certainly hasnt' had the best start.

[espinay2]

Can the pup be separated froim the other dog during the day? Such is in a separate run? (beside the other dog, but not with the other dog if you get my drift). Then introduce something like a NILIF program. All food comes from the humans, all attention comes from the humans, walk them separately, crated at night or separated with a baby gate. This BTW, is not a 'permanent' thing but part of the process of bonding the pup with the family so that it sees food and comfort and attention coming from the family, not the other dog. Afte a week or two, re-introduce limited time controlled play sessions with the other dog (AFTER dog has interacted with humans first). Eventually they should be able to be introduced back together fully.

Just a thought...has the pups hearing been checked? If as you say the pup is not responding to loud noises etc, I would get this checked just to be sure as a lot of what you describe sounds like the behaviour of a hearing impaired dog.

Edited July 9, 2011 by espinay2