Schutzhund Training..........

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: many dogs these days are worked the bark & hold in prey drive in all titles, I believe the true bark & hold should be done in defence drive.

[Cordelia]

K9: of course you know that Sch 1 is obedience, Sch 2 is tracking & Sch 3 is protection. So when saying you wont rehome a Sch trained dog, you mean titled in Sch 3.

Obviously. (since no one mentioned if I would rehome dogs with specific levels, I assumed this meant fully titled).

K9: this is very rarely the case, dominance bleeds over into aprehension, meaning dominant dogs rarely perform well...

Depends on who is training them I guess.

Personally, I would have felt that Sch training required a high level of confidence from the dog. Highly confident dogs are often dominant animals. (please Steve, note that I said 'often' not always).

The chances of a bite trained dog biting someone are less than a non bite trained dog...

Another big 'depends' on that one. Depends on who is handling the dog. Someone who knows what they are doing as opposed to your average pet owner or someone who is using the dog as a spare pair of testicles.

It would be a shame not to re home such a well trained animal.

Ok. If I ever get someone wanting to surrender their level III Sch trained dog, I shall refer them directly to you.

Look what he does with a sleave.

Dont some dog do the same with a rope/ball/fluffy toy?

Yep, they do...... but the difference is that none of mine ever "win" the toy at the end. If they can beat me (which admitedly, isn't hard), then I don't allow the game to occur (especially with the dominant ones here).

Retraining a dog that does the tug of war with a rope and than a fetch would be just as easy to retrain to do human bite work as it would be to retrain this dobe.

Sorry. I don't agree. Perhaps in some of the guarding breeds it would be, but generally, most dogs of other breeds won't go from hanging off a rope toy, to hanging off a bite sleeve. If that were the case...... you'd see Labradors and Shelties and possibly Great Danes in Sch training videos.

BTW I am happy that this subject came up, and we can sort of hihgjack, perhaps it will educate people that protection trained dogs are not dangerous - they are simply very well TRAINED.

Ok, I'm hoping no one thinks that I believe that Sch training produces dangerous dogs? That was not what I think or meant to convey.

My original question was only meant as a question regarding council/ Local Govt laws..... thats all.

However.... protection training of any kind by the wrong person/people can and will produce a very dangerous animal. which leads me to one more question.......

Is there a test (psychological or otherwise) or some standard that a person has to complete prior to entering into Sch training with their 'pet'??? (to actually weed out the nutbags)????

Oh and one more comment................ what is with the BARKING these dogs do??????????? I'd stop whatever I was doing simply to get the dog to shut up!! If protection training involves that much barking what is the purpose?

To annoy a person into submitting??

(sorry, I am being sarcastic as I find barking exceedingly irritating but i don't understand WHY it is needed??)

[Kavik]

In protection, you teach the dog to bark before he gets the sleeve, so that you may not have to get the dog to bit in real life to stop the threat. If you can stop the problem by intimidating the person by barking, it is better than having to use the force of biting. (also why 'scary' breeds are used. People wouldn't be as scared of a poodle!).

Don't know as much about the purpose in schutzhund. Maybe similar? Shows you have found the guy and he is stationary, and where he is? (simulates a search for a bad guy, so you can find them by the barking), and warns guy if he moves he will be bitten?

[mersonmalinois]

It's been a LONG while since I dabbled in schutzhund, but as I recall the bark & hold is an exercise to push the dog's nerves/character and to see how it handles the pressure. It is not allowed a cheap bite during this exercise, but I think they are encouraged to be close to the decoy without making ANY contact. If the decoy acts aggressively or attempts to strike the handler, the dog is allowed the bite.

I'm sure others will share more up-to-date info, but that's what I remember about the exercise.

[MonElite]

Yes thats exactly right abut barking - the dog is to find the "bad guy" and intimidate him, as well as notify the handler by barking that he has found the bad guy.

As to tests - yes there are tests to eliminate fruitloops.

Basically it is to find the dogs confidence, obiedience and bite (by bite I mean deep with full mouth plus a hold with a mouth, it is not good if the dog bites the sleave and shakes the sleave trying to "kill" it)

As to labs and shelties not appearing in the Sch videos - the only reason is that people that have those breeds are generally not intrested in doing such sports. Plus of course a general breed predisposition. Great Dane............ voila http://www.dogschoolmrazovac.co.yu/images/sale/DSC01407.JPG

My friend has a pomeranian - He is a Sch III rottie trapped in a small body. He would be a champion in the sport if given a chance. (How we know? becouse she also has a dobe that she does Sch with)

Edited March 2, 2005 by myszka

[Cordelia]

Great Dane............ voila

Haha! Ya got me on that one. Should have thought about that one a bit more. hehe too busy thinking MY Dane hehe.

I have a Dachy x here who thinks she is Sch trained.

As to tests - yes there are tests to eliminate fruitloops.

Basically it is to find the dogs confidence, obiedience and bite (by bite I mean deep with full mouth plus a hold with a mouth, it is not good if the dog bites the sleave and shakes the sleave trying to "kill" it)

Actually, I meant fruitloop owners not the dogs. You know.. the guys who do actually want a dog to bite intruders and have a dog that proves how 'manly' they are etc.

Surely an owner should also prove that they are stable enough to be responsible with the knowledge and training these dogs go through??

[MonElite]

It wasnt hard to find a lab as well

http://www.hund.ch/fotos/flabrador26.htm

[MonElite]

Actually, I meant fruitloop owners not the dogs. You know.. the guys who do actually want a dog to bite intruders and have a dog that proves how 'manly' they are etc.

Surely an owner should also prove that they are stable enough to be responsible with the knowledge and training these dogs go through??

Yes the test is for both the dog and the person

[mersonmalinois]

Actually, I meant fruitloop owners not the dogs. You know.. the guys who do actually want a dog to bite intruders and have a dog that proves how 'manly' they are etc.

Surely an owner should also prove that they are stable enough to be responsible with the knowledge and training these dogs go through??

The people who actually train and title in schutzhund are typically level-headed, smart dog people.

The "fruitloops" are the ones who claim they have "working line dogs" (with nary a working title in the pedigree) and then have a go at the sport and then quit. They don't want to have to put in the hours necessary to train & title.

At least that is how it is with many breeds here in the states...all talk about working dogs, very little action or titles...just aggressive dogs who give the true working community's dogs a bad name.

[MonElite]

MM - so well said! (re fruitloop owners)

BH test must be passed here are the rules http://www.dvgamerica.com/04BHRules.pdf

As to possible fruitloop owners and dogs (this is taken from this site) http://www.dogschoolmrazovac.co.yu/en/schutzhund.php

" Before any dog can enter a Schutzhund trial and obtain a degree it must pass a ( BH ) . BH = German Companion Dog. The dog must pass this test at an approved Schutzhund Trial. This test was developed as a preliminary character evaluation. This test was designed to keep aggressive, sharp, shy, or nervous dogs from participating in the sport. A dog must have absolutely sound temperament to compete in a Schutzhund trial.

Schutzhund training is very time consuming and requires a lot of commitment from the handler. The length of time it takes to get a Schutzhund title varies greatly depending upon the dogs abilities, the time spent training, and the quality of the training. Many people view the sport of Schutzhund like preparing for an Olympic Event. One must see their dog as an athlete and learn all the aspects of conditioning, proper diet, and the psychology of it all -- for one's self as well as for the dog.

The obedience phase involves numerous and demanding exercises which include heeling on and off leash, a gunfire test, walking through a group of people, motion exercises, recall, a 10-20 minute long down, retrieving, and jumping. A set pattern is demonstrated by the handler from memory (unlike AKC obedience, where the judge calls the pattern for you). A perfect score is 100 points, with 70 needed to pass. "

So a fruitloop dog (aggressive) with a fruitloop owner are not likely candidates

I just give one more example - a boxer - the dog that people say is FANTASTIC with kids, and so they are. Including this one

http://www.dogschoolmrazovac.co.yu/gallery/images/eva.jpg

Edited March 2, 2005 by myszka

[griff]

Thanks for the Links Myszka , very interesting, as like most people would think I also thought just Rotts, GSD, Belgiums did this "sport" .

[Kavik]

As for Schutzhund being noisy. . . been to agility lately?

[Staff'n'Toller]

My first dog was Schutzhund trained.

I believe he will be the safest dog I will ever own, he can discriminate between threatening and non-threatening behaviour. He rarely, if ever 'won' the sleeve, he was mostly always recalled off it. If you can recall a dog operating in such a high level of drive, then that speaks volumes about the level of obedience you have with your dog.

For him it was an outlet, he loved his bite work. Immediately after being recalled off the sleeve and being told 'finish' he would run up to the sleeve wearer for a pat.

I understand about the fruitloop owners (otherwise known as guys with extrememly small testicles ).

However, correctly trained Schutzhund dogs/handlers don't usually fall into that fruitloop category. The dogs obedience has to be at a very advanced level. I think the psyche is different too- I hoped that I never had to actually use my dog in any situation, we both enjoyed the training, but I would never have wanted to place him in danger.

Mel.

Edited March 2, 2005 by StaffordsRule

[Dutch dog]

K9: of course you know that Sch 1 is obedience, Sch 2 is tracking & Sch 3 is protection. So when saying you wont rehome a Sch trained dog, you mean titled in Sch 3.

I'm afraid SchH titles are misinterpreted. 1,2,3 are different levels, but all do have protection part included. Training on the (puppy) sleeve starts at very early age.

quote "

The Schutzhund Titles  ^

There are three levels of the Schutzhund test. SchH1, SchH2, SchH3

    For Schutzhund I the dog must be at least 18 months old and pass an initial temperament test by the judge. The dog must heel on the leash and off, demonstrate the walking sit, the walking down, and the stay tests, as well as the send-out. It must retrieve on the flat and over a hurdle. In tracking, it must be able to follow a track laid by its handler at least 20 minutes earlier. There are also protection tests.

   

For Schutzhund II the dog must be at least 19 months old and already have earned its Schutshund I degree. It must again pass all of the obedience and protection tests required for the Schutzhund I degree, but those tests, for Schutzhund II, are made more difficult and require greater endurance, agility, and, above all, control. There is an additional retrieve required over the six-foot slanted wall. In tracking, the Schutzhund II candidate must be able to follow a track laid by a stranger at least 30 minutes earlier.

    For Schutzhund III, the master's degree, the dog must be at least 20 months old and must have earned both the Schutzhund I and the Schutzhund II titles. Again, the tests now are made far more difficult. All exercises in obedience and protection are demonstrated off leash. There is the addition of a walking and running stand. In tracking, the dog must follow a track that was laid by a stranger at least 50 minutes earlier. The track has four turns, compared with two turns for Schutzhund I and II, and there are three objects, rather than two, that must be found by the dog. The picture of obedience, strength, eagerness, and confidence presented by an excellent Schutzhund III team is a beautiful illustration of the partnership of human and dog.

"unquote

I do agree with Cordelia that placing an ex SchH ain't straightforward. Not because dog would be agressive, but coz you need full background info on specific dog. What has been their cue's - how was the dog trained (there are also clicker scH trainers), strengths /weaknesses in character etc.etc. I doubt if I would ever take an ex-protection dog into my household. I know therapy dogs which are fully protection trained, I grew up with fully trained police dog (similar to SchH3 ), and as an 8-15 year old kid this dog joined me everywhere and was the best family pet ever. He never showed any sign of aggression whatsoever.

[Kavik]

Just checked and protection trained dogs do not have to be declared dangerous or restricted in NSW.

[Cordelia]

Thats not quite right Lia.

It depends on why/for what purpose the dog is trained........

Dogs used in Security work ie: Protection trained dogs that are working are classified and come under the same regulations that Restricted dogs do. The difference is that if they bite someone whilst working, they are ok, but if they bite someone in the owners yard or in public whilst NOT 'on duty' (as in actual security work/shift) then the owner will be charged with having a restricted dog not contained/controlled etc.

COMPANION ANIMALS ACT 1998 - SECT 55

Restricted dogs

55 Restricted dogs

The following dogs are restricted dogs for the purposes of this Act:

(a) pit bull terriers,

(b) American pit bull terriers,

© Japanese tosas,

(d) Argentinian fighting dogs (dogo Argentino),

(e) Brazilian fighting dogs (fila Brasileiro),

(f) any other dog of a breed, kind or description prescribed by the regulations as restricted for the purposes of this Division.

Note: For example, dogs used as guard dogs by security personnel could be prescribed as restricted dogs

LINK: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/con...998174/s55.html

Edited March 3, 2005 by Cordelia

[Kavik]

Hmmmm . . . got me there! Maybe they heard me wrong?

What do they mean by 'could be prescribed'? Does that mean are restricted?

What's the difference between restricted and dangerous? It looks like they have the same conditions and penalties for breaches?

[Axel]

In the GSDL magazine 'shepherd news' there is a write up on Shutzhund and the laws surrounding it.. (about 2.5 pages from memory) if you would like me to photocopy it or fax it to you, let me know and i can do it for ya jack...

[Cordelia]

That would be great! Thanks Axel.

Will PM you my addy.