Socialising Your Dog

[huski]

Why do you keep typing what I'm thinking?

My puppy was crated and kept seperate from my two older dogs until she was about 6 months old. During that time she met hundreds of other dogs, but always on my terms. From the age of 4 months (she came to live with us at 3 months) she could work around other dogs without having to run off and visit. Now at 14 months she loves nothing more than to play with other dogs and is very appropriate in how she does it.

I don't think you need to constantly run your dogs with other dogs for them to be well socialised. It's all about blanace and making sure that they are able to achieve the criteria you set them - whatever that may be.

For some (like me) that will mean the absolute ability to either ignore or come away from any other excitement that might be going on around them, for others it might be that they will (eventually?) come when they are called at the dog park. For others it might just mean that they don't try and eat other dogs when you walk past them in the street.

At the end of the day, if you are happy with your dog's abilities then as long as you aren't annoying/impacting on others then it doesn't matter to anyone else.

To me dog/dog socialisation is only about 5% of what socialising a dog is about. Of FAR more importance is their general ability to cope with siutations they are likely to find themselves in.

AD, especially agree with your last point.

IMO a lot of general dog owners seem to think socialisation begins and ends with other dogs, when from my perspective, it makes up so little of what socialisation is about to me.

I would be interested to know why you say that and also how long would you keep that up for?

Agility Dogs touched on it but for me my reasons are:

- Safety. I don't feel that it's safe to bring a new dog or puppy into my house and leave it unsupervised with my current dogs - who knows what could happen until I know for sure they are all comfortable around each other. I especially would not want a baby puppy running with adult dogs purely for the size difference.

- Independence. It is important to me that ALL of my dogs especially young puppies learn to be happy on their own. It is rare I take all of my dogs out together and I don't want any of them becoming reliant on having dog company all the time.

- Value. I don't want my puppy bonding more to my adult dogs than to me, and I don't want them developing a high value for other dogs which could happen if they are left to run with adult dogs constantly.

- Also, I don't want my puppy learning bad habits from my older dogs and if I'm not their to supervise their interactions I have no idea what my puppy is and isn't learning.

As for how long, I guess it would depend on my puppy and my adult dogs. Certainly not in the initial few months.

Edited July 8, 2011 by huski

[ness]

No puppy that I bring into my home will be run with my adult dogs either.

Think this depends a little on the breed and personality of the dogs. Kenz has always run with Ness from day 1 and she couldn't really give a toss and certainly isn't a must play at all costs type of dog. In fact she is the one that wants to interact with me rather than go off and do anything else and always has been like that. But then Ness isn't really the type of dog who really ran or played with Kenz. They more coexisted. So I don't mind them running with my adult dogs but if they started to become more dog focused and didn't give a toss about me then I'd do things differently.

[huski]

AD - now you stop typing what I'm thinking! LOL

Ness, daisy is much the same in that I think she'd be fine but how can you know for sure? Not worth the risk IMO. Besides I think she'd get fed up being stuck with a pup all day too.

[wuffles]

I have a 19 month old who can work very nicely around all kinds of distractions including other dogs running and playing (I won't say faultlessly as she's not a robot). She was run with my other dog from 14 weeks old and has gone to dog parks since she was young.

I agree that it's about what suits the particular owner and what they expect from their dog (it also depends on the dog's temperament) but seeing as there is a big push for neutralisation I thought I'd put in my experience from someone who's done it differently and still come out with a well-rounded dog.

[Agility Dogs]

No puppy that I bring into my home will be run with my adult dogs either.

but if they started to become more dog focused and didn't give a toss about me then I'd do things differently.

Your dogs will never not give a toss about you, but why take the risk and have to fix it? ;)

[Yesmaam]

The dogs in my Schutzhund club have to be social and stable or we don't accept them.

[ness]

I guess to I should also clarify I was in the fortunate position of being able to be home with Kenz as a youngster so they were very rarely left alone - least not for long hours. Suppose one perk of being a student . And AD I guess it came down to the fact I knew she was getting very little reinforcement from Ness when it came to play interactions while I was home so it was a pretty safe bet that she wasn't getting any reinforcement from her when I wasn't .

[huski]

Exactly! For me it comes down to risk. Yes it could work out fine but why chance it? The number of dogs I meet that were always run with other dogs and always taken to dog parks etc that are 100% reliable around distractions are incredibly rare.

[mish13]

Thank you for your answer, I would never let a pup be alone with my other dogs when I wasn't home incase it got hurt.

All the other information is very useful and I will take it on board if I ever get another dog.

[ness]

Here you go - a clip of Kenz as a 13 week old "working and playing" effectively off-lead (she had a lead on but I wasn't holding it - not about to be foolish) at an obedience trial. She had already been taken out and about and been allowed to play with other dogs. She had been to a DOL meet and out to agility trials and had play dates with other pups and older dogs. She arrived at just over 8 weeks and from somewhere where she had had 12 other pups to play with (breeder had 2 litters a week apart who were mixed for play sessions when they were old enough). So you would think from that kind of situation she would be pretty dog focused.

ETA. I will also point out my older girl was sitting on-lead only 3 m away from where the video was filmed as was a friends dog who she had had play dates with since the first weekend she arrived.

Edited July 8, 2011 by ness

[Agility Dogs]

Here you go - a clip of Kenz as a 13 week old "working and playing" effectively off-lead (she had a lead on but I wasn't holding it - not about to be foolish) at an obedience trial. She had already been taken out and about and been allowed to play with other dogs. She had been to a DOL meet and out to agility trials and had play dates with other pups and older dogs. She arrived at just over 8 weeks and from somewhere where she had had 12 other pups to play with (breeder had 2 litters a week apart who were mixed for play sessions when they were old enough). So you would think from that kind of situation she would be pretty dog focused.

ETA. I will also point out my older girl was sitting on-lead only 3 m away from where the video was filmed as was a friends dog who she had had play dates with since the first weekend she arrived.

Very cool. Maybe its just the Winpara genes we've been lucky with!!

[mish13]

Ness just loved the video and am pretty impressed that Ness stayed put. Kenz is a beautiful puppy and by the looks of it very smart. Well done :thumbsup:

Edited July 8, 2011 by mish13

[Inevitablue]

I totally agree with the idea of neutralization for competition dogs. Certainly makes for easier dogs to train. I just worry that the general public might take it as not allowing their dogs to interact with others.

Restrained on leash greetings do not allow the dogs to express true interactive behaviour. The dog is not learning how to read unconvoluted body language.

Joe Public buys their cute brindle staffy from the pet shop and is told not to let the pup truly interact with other dogs. We have a low threshold dog with no skills how to deal with fellow canines. No idea about avoidance behaviour, no idea how to introduce itself, no history of relaxing around other dogs.

They join the local club and one training night the dog gets loose........

Fully agree it's harder work on the owner to be of higher value if there has already been a value placed in other dogs, but, again for the average dog owner I'd rather they have 80% focus with the knowledge the dog can ideally handle itself in a socially (both human and canine) acceptable way.

Fine for dogs who work for a living such as security dogs etc but they are largely kept away from public situations when not in 'work mode'.

Maybe my perceptions are warped because I see so many of my beloved breed with zero dog skills and as such do nothing for their public image, when in fact these dogs are amenable, even affable, if given the chance to learn. I believe the same is true for bull breeds, and the legion of SWF's.

[missmoo]

I totally agree with the idea of neutralization for competition dogs. Certainly makes for easier dogs to train. I just worry that the general public might take it as not allowing their dogs to interact with others.

Restrained on leash greetings do not allow the dogs to express true interactive behaviour. The dog is not learning how to read unconvoluted body language.

Joe Public buys their cute brindle staffy from the pet shop and is told not to let the pup truly interact with other dogs. We have a low threshold dog with no skills how to deal with fellow canines. No idea about avoidance behaviour, no idea how to introduce itself, no history of relaxing around other dogs.

They join the local club and one training night the dog gets loose........

Fully agree it's harder work on the owner to be of higher value if there has already been a value placed in other dogs, but, again for the average dog owner I'd rather they have 80% focus with the knowledge the dog can ideally handle itself in a socially (both human and canine) acceptable way.

Fine for dogs who work for a living such as security dogs etc but they are largely kept away from public situations when not in 'work mode'.

Maybe my perceptions are warped because I see so many of my beloved breed with zero dog skills and as such do nothing for their public image, when in fact these dogs are amenable, even affable, if given the chance to learn. I believe the same is true for bull breeds, and the legion of SWF's.

agree...

the average dog owner does not know nor understand the true definition of neutralization...even some trainers i know have the lines blurred between truly neutral and excellent stimulus and command control of their dog.

I don't know of many obedience schools that teach true neutral socialisation maybe because it is seen as a "working dog" thing rather than a average pet owner thing....I am all for teaching owners that "I" am the centre and most exciting thing in my dogs life but how many ppl really get it right...there can be a fine line between getting the dog to focus on your every word and incorrect socialisation if they misunderstand even the slightest....

[mish13]

I am loving this thread and learning a lot but another question is how do you learn to teach your dog this way? I am from the old school of obedience training with check chains and trained two shepherds to trial level.

Where did you learn the true definition of neutralisation?

Sorry if I am highjacking this thread but I am keen to learn how to do things better.

[Agility Dogs]

I totally agree with the idea of neutralization for competition dogs. Certainly makes for easier dogs to train. I just worry that the general public might take it as not allowing their dogs to interact with others.

Restrained on leash greetings do not allow the dogs to express true interactive behaviour. The dog is not learning how to read unconvoluted body language.

Joe Public buys their cute brindle staffy from the pet shop and is told not to let the pup truly interact with other dogs. We have a low threshold dog with no skills how to deal with fellow canines. No idea about avoidance behaviour, no idea how to introduce itself, no history of relaxing around other dogs.

They join the local club and one training night the dog gets loose........

Fully agree it's harder work on the owner to be of higher value if there has already been a value placed in other dogs, but, again for the average dog owner I'd rather they have 80% focus with the knowledge the dog can ideally handle itself in a socially (both human and canine) acceptable way.

Fine for dogs who work for a living such as security dogs etc but they are largely kept away from public situations when not in 'work mode'.

Maybe my perceptions are warped because I see so many of my beloved breed with zero dog skills and as such do nothing for their public image, when in fact these dogs are amenable, even affable, if given the chance to learn. I believe the same is true for bull breeds, and the legion of SWF's.

agree...

the average dog owner does not know nor understand the true definition of neutralization...even some trainers i know have the lines blurred between truly neutral and excellent stimulus and command control of their dog.

I don't know of many obedience schools that teach true neutral socialisation maybe because it is seen as a "working dog" thing rather than a average pet owner thing....I am all for teaching owners that "I" am the centre and most exciting thing in my dogs life but how many ppl really get it right...there can be a fine line between getting the dog to focus on your every word and incorrect socialisation if they misunderstand even the slightest....

Most people with performance dogs struggle to deal with criteria IMO. Last week I was told I was splitting hairs because I asked someone if they were happy with their dog lifting one foot when they were on a stay. (Stupid BC ready to go lifting one foot.)

Trying to get even people who are happy to get around an agility course or teach a dog to do a clean flyball run to understand the value of clear criteria is hard enough. Let alone trying to do it with 'average' pet owners. (Although that said, some of our best students started out as average pet owners. Personally, I was a very below average owner and have just caught the bug.

[huski]

Restrained on leash greetings do not allow the dogs to express true interactive behaviour. The dog is not learning how to read unconvoluted body language.

I am not sure where you got the idea that anyone here is saying that dogs should only have 'restrained leash greetings'

Joe Public buys their cute brindle staffy from the pet shop and is told not to let the pup truly interact with other dogs. We have a low threshold dog with no skills how to deal with fellow canines. No idea about avoidance behaviour, no idea how to introduce itself, no history of relaxing around other dogs.

They join the local club and one training night the dog gets loose........

Fully agree it's harder work on the owner to be of higher value if there has already been a value placed in other dogs, but, again for the average dog owner I'd rather they have 80% focus with the knowledge the dog can ideally handle itself in a socially (both human and canine) acceptable way.

Fine for dogs who work for a living such as security dogs etc but they are largely kept away from public situations when not in 'work mode'.

Maybe my perceptions are warped because I see so many of my beloved breed with zero dog skills and as such do nothing for their public image, when in fact these dogs are amenable, even affable, if given the chance to learn. I believe the same is true for bull breeds, and the legion of SWF's.

IMO, the kind of people who would want to 'neutralise' their dogs are not Joe Public who get a puppy from a pet store and then stuff it up by failing to socialise and neutralise their dog properly.

Neutralised dogs are not dogs that never interact with other dogs. They are dogs that have been taught that other dogs are of a low or 'neutral' value and aren't anything overally exciting.

Missmoo:

I don't know of many obedience schools that teach true neutral socialisation maybe because it is seen as a "working dog" thing rather than a average pet owner thing....I am all for teaching owners that "I" am the centre and most exciting thing in my dogs life but how many ppl really get it right...there can be a fine line between getting the dog to focus on your every word and incorrect socialisation if they misunderstand even the slightest....

As an obedience instructor I can tell you that if I started to explain the concept of neutralisation I'd lose the majority of people in my class in the first few seconds. What I do explain to them is that socialisation is not just about letting your dogs play with other dogs but it is about giving your dog a new experience, teaching them how to deal with new experiences, and assigning that experience with a value.

A lot of people in my classes have a lightbulb moment when I explain how we often set out to do the right thing by socialising our puppies but often teach them that other dogs have a higher value than us and the rewards that we control.

I'd also suggest that a fair chunk of people who come to the club I instruct at are there because they struggle to walk their dog down the street without it pulling their arm out of it's socket to try and get to another dog. These are majority of the time dogs that were socialised extensively with other dogs from a young age, but whose owners missed the other crucial points of socialisation.

I would never tell anyone in my class to never let their puppy be around other dogs because that is not what neutralisation or socialisation is about.

I am loving this thread and learning a lot but another question is how do you learn to teach your dog this way? I am from the old school of obedience training with check chains and trained two shepherds to trial level.

Where did you learn the true definition of neutralisation?

Sorry if I am highjacking this thread but I am keen to learn how to do things better.

I first read about neutralisation on DOL and I admit the first time I read about it I thought it was too extreme and not for me. But the more I have become involved in dogs and dog training the more I can see the benefit and the more converted to the concept I became. Since then I've talked to trainers and behaviourists about it quite a lot.

[missmoo]

Restrained on leash greetings do not allow the dogs to express true interactive behaviour. The dog is not learning how to read unconvoluted body language.

I am not sure where you got the idea that anyone here is saying that dogs should only have 'restrained leash greetings'

Joe Public buys their cute brindle staffy from the pet shop and is told not to let the pup truly interact with other dogs. We have a low threshold dog with no skills how to deal with fellow canines. No idea about avoidance behaviour, no idea how to introduce itself, no history of relaxing around other dogs.

They join the local club and one training night the dog gets loose........

Fully agree it's harder work on the owner to be of higher value if there has already been a value placed in other dogs, but, again for the average dog owner I'd rather they have 80% focus with the knowledge the dog can ideally handle itself in a socially (both human and canine) acceptable way.

Fine for dogs who work for a living such as security dogs etc but they are largely kept away from public situations when not in 'work mode'.

Maybe my perceptions are warped because I see so many of my beloved breed with zero dog skills and as such do nothing for their public image, when in fact these dogs are amenable, even affable, if given the chance to learn. I believe the same is true for bull breeds, and the legion of SWF's.

IMO, the kind of people who would want to 'neutralise' their dogs are not Joe Public who get a puppy from a pet store and then stuff it up by failing to socialise and neutralise their dog properly.

Neutralised dogs are not dogs that never interact with other dogs. They are dogs that have been taught that other dogs are of a low or 'neutral' value and aren't anything overally exciting.

Missmoo:

I don't know of many obedience schools that teach true neutral socialisation maybe because it is seen as a "working dog" thing rather than a average pet owner thing....I am all for teaching owners that "I" am the centre and most exciting thing in my dogs life but how many ppl really get it right...there can be a fine line between getting the dog to focus on your every word and incorrect socialisation if they misunderstand even the slightest....

As an obedience instructor I can tell you that if I started to explain the concept of neutralisation I'd lose the majority of people in my class in the first few seconds. What I do explain to them is that socialisation is not just about letting your dogs play with other dogs but it is about giving your dog a new experience, teaching them how to deal with new experiences, and assigning that experience with a value.

A lot of people in my classes have a lightbulb moment when I explain how we often set out to do the right thing by socialising our puppies but often teach them that other dogs have a higher value than us and the rewards that we control.

I'd also suggest that a fair chunk of people who come to the club I instruct at are there because they struggle to walk their dog down the street without it pulling their arm out of it's socket to try and get to another dog. These are majority of the time dogs that were socialised extensively with other dogs from a young age, but whose owners missed the other crucial points of socialisation.

I would never tell anyone in my class to never let their puppy be around other dogs because that is not what neutralisation or socialisation is about.

I am loving this thread and learning a lot but another question is how do you learn to teach your dog this way? I am from the old school of obedience training with check chains and trained two shepherds to trial level.

Where did you learn the true definition of neutralisation?

Sorry if I am highjacking this thread but I am keen to learn how to do things better.

I first read about neutralisation on DOL and I admit the first time I read about it I thought it was too extreme and not for me. But the more I have become involved in dogs and dog training the more I can see the benefit and the more converted to the concept I became. Since then I've talked to trainers and behaviourists about it quite a lot.

neither do we were I work....socialisation is taught and continued thru all levels of obedience we instruct....

we also instruct the handler should be the most important and exciting thing in the dogs life, owners cant expect to get their dogs focus/attention under distraction if they aren't

Edited July 8, 2011 by missmoo

[missmoo]

I am loving this thread and learning a lot but another question is how do you learn to teach your dog this way? I am from the old school of obedience training with check chains and trained two shepherds to trial level.

Where did you learn the true definition of neutralisation?

Sorry if I am highjacking this thread but I am keen to learn how to do things better.

I learned Socialisation from the NDTF course and also from other instructers/trainers I have worked with over the last 4 years.....

[Skye GSD]

Mish13 - I, too, am from the "old school" and also trained my previous GSD's with choke chains. Read K9Pro's thread on Socialisation/Neutralisation that he has noted in this thread - it is really worth studying the 38 pages! I am now doing Long Distance Training with Steve and just loving it.