Maremma With Chooks

[Guest stuffthejoneses]

hi i'm andy and a newbie here. i recently got an 8 month old maremma boy, named charlie and am trying to integrate him with a flock of 30 chooks. he has lived with chooks all his life so far and has been slowly introduced to mine.at first as soon as i let him off the lead he would chase them and pin one down and sniff it to within an inch of it's life. then he started licking them,then just standing over them, which i took as a sign of guarding them. i started to leave him with them all day while they free ranged(we have a couple of acres), but now he has started tearing out feathers. he has been separated from them for the last 2 days as i dont want this to get worse. i just don't know if i'm doing something wrong or going too fast. any tips would be greatly appreciated

[espinay2]

This dog is only a youngster and needs guidance still. You need to teach him how to behave around the chooks. Some good info here: LGD's and Poultry

I also recommend joining the LGD-L email list. You can find info on joining the list on the LGD.org website (make sure you also check out the library page on the website which is full of very useful info)

Edited July 5, 2011 by espinay2

[persephone]

Hi you will find 'some' info in the thread

HERE

have a look at post #40 ,#48, #54, #115 .

You say he's lived with chooks all his life - he may have - but he may not have been properly 'bonded' with them from a baby - so now he just sees them as nice squeaky playthings Some of the folks who know this breed will no doubt help you later

at 8 mths he's pretty big - I hope you can get help with the training side of things .

Edited July 5, 2011 by persephone

[Guest stuffthejoneses]

Hi you will find 'some' info in the thread

HERE

have a look at post #40 ,#48, #54, #115 .

You say he's lived with chooks all his life - he may have - but he may not have been properly 'bonded' with them from a baby - so now he just sees them as nice squeaky playthings Some of the folks who know this breed will no doubt help you later

at 8 mths he's pretty big - I hope you can get help with the training side of things .

hi there . what i understand from talking to the breeder is that charlie and his parents lived together on the farm with the chooks. i have also read that he may need to be bonded to my chooks too.

[Steve]

Oh Dear. You need to go back and start as if the dog hasnt had anything to do with chooks. The dog has to know that it can never play with the chooks or the animals its working with - its the first basic job you need to do. Chucking a clod of dirt at him when he does attempt this works well with a gruff voice.

You have to be present from a short distance so your dog should be with the chooks when you are doing things around the yard as you want to be able to monitor his activities to correct him the minute you see him wanting to play with the chickens, and he should be corrected immediately . If you are not able to be there when the dog is loose he should be pen in a safe area close to the chickens he is to protect or tied up where they can get to him but he cant get to them.

[Nekhbet]

Hey Steve while you're lurking I had a customer at work ask me about her Maremma, it's a pet only was bought from a farm as a pup but it follows her religiously and any time she does leave it shreds the bed while sitting at the back door. Otherwise a fairly quiet dog.

I recommeded since she was already considering chickens to get a few and start encouraging the dog to go be with them as a job instead of obsessing over her. Would feeding the dog next to the chicken pen and putting a basic bed out there be at least a start in getting this dog to 'guard' the chooks instead of her or are already formed bonds hard to break?

[Guest stuffthejoneses]

Oh Dear. You need to go back and start as if the dog hasnt had anything to do with chooks. The dog has to know that it can never play with the chooks or the animals its working with - its the first basic job you need to do. Chucking a clod of dirt at him when he does attempt this works well with a gruff voice.

You have to be present from a short distance so your dog should be with the chooks when you are doing things around the yard as you want to be able to monitor his activities to correct him the minute you see him wanting to play with the chickens, and he should be corrected immediately . If you are not able to be there when the dog is loose he should be pen in a safe area close to the chickens he is to protect or tied up where they can get to him but he cant get to them.

ok thanks. i have a light 5m chain that i put him on once for about 1/2 hr or so it cannot tangle so should be ok. should i still be in the pen with him? i have read that you should push him to the ground if he chases, is this right??

[Steve]

Oh Dear. You need to go back and start as if the dog hasnt had anything to do with chooks. The dog has to know that it can never play with the chooks or the animals its working with - its the first basic job you need to do. Chucking a clod of dirt at him when he does attempt this works well with a gruff voice.

You have to be present from a short distance so your dog should be with the chooks when you are doing things around the yard as you want to be able to monitor his activities to correct him the minute you see him wanting to play with the chickens, and he should be corrected immediately . If you are not able to be there when the dog is loose he should be pen in a safe area close to the chickens he is to protect or tied up where they can get to him but he cant get to them.

ok thanks. i have a light 5m chain that i put him on once for about 1/2 hr or so it cannot tangle so should be ok. should i still be in the pen with him? i have read that you should push him to the ground if he chases, is this right??

Ive never had to consider pushing them to the ground but I would say it wouldnt always be easy to catch them.

When peoplesay they have been working with chickens that could mean a whole heaps of different ways they have been working with them. Some have them inthe pens, some outside the pens - some have no pens etc but in a dog 7 months old that has already been working with chickens I wouldnt expect that you should be seeing this kind of behaviour so Im guessing "working with chickens" wasnt really what you thought it was.

Pushing them to the ground is difficult in a 7 month old and it might let you do that once but it will get harder to catch it to do it very often. Stamping your feet , raising your voice and throwing a soft clump of dirt works well here.

If you tether him in the pen you dont need to stay there with him. He needs to be with the chickens 24 hours a day but only able to touch them or get too close when you are there so you can correct him if he gets too playful - it shouldnt take very long to train this out of him but at this age he wont just train himself.

[Steve]

Hey Steve while you're lurking I had a customer at work ask me about her Maremma, it's a pet only was bought from a farm as a pup but it follows her religiously and any time she does leave it shreds the bed while sitting at the back door. Otherwise a fairly quiet dog.

I recommeded since she was already considering chickens to get a few and start encouraging the dog to go be with them as a job instead of obsessing over her. Would feeding the dog next to the chicken pen and putting a basic bed out there be at least a start in getting this dog to 'guard' the chooks instead of her or are already formed bonds hard to break?

Do you think the dog is obsessing over her ? It should be following her and Im not sure that anything you do is going to stop a Maremma shredding its bed. Im impressed she gets the dog to sit on a bed!

[Guest stuffthejoneses]

Oh Dear. You need to go back and start as if the dog hasnt had anything to do with chooks. The dog has to know that it can never play with the chooks or the animals its working with - its the first basic job you need to do. Chucking a clod of dirt at him when he does attempt this works well with a gruff voice.

You have to be present from a short distance so your dog should be with the chooks when you are doing things around the yard as you want to be able to monitor his activities to correct him the minute you see him wanting to play with the chickens, and he should be corrected immediately . If you are not able to be there when the dog is loose he should be pen in a safe area close to the chickens he is to protect or tied up where they can get to him but he cant get to them.

ok thanks. i have a light 5m chain that i put him on once for about 1/2 hr or so it cannot tangle so should be ok. should i still be in the pen with him? i have read that you should push him to the ground if he chases, is this right??

Ive never had to consider pushing them to the ground but I would say it wouldnt always be easy to catch them.

When peoplesay they have been working with chickens that could mean a whole heaps of different ways they have been working with them. Some have them inthe pens, some outside the pens - some have no pens etc but in a dog 7 months old that has already been working with chickens I wouldnt expect that you should be seeing this kind of behaviour so Im guessing "working with chickens" wasnt really what you thought it was.

Pushing them to the ground is difficult in a 7 month old and it might let you do that once but it will get harder to catch it to do it very often. Stamping your feet , raising your voice and throwing a soft clump of dirt works well here.

If you tether him in the pen you dont need to stay there with him. He needs to be with the chickens 24 hours a day but only able to touch them or get too close when you are there so you can correct him if he gets too playful - it shouldnt take very long to train this out of him but at this age he wont just train himself.

thanks steve, ill give it a go.

[Guest stuffthejoneses]

well, he has attacked another chook now. a couple escaped yesterday as i was collecting the eggs. he ripped a fair few feathers out but this time he tore the skin a bit and if you look closely you can see a bit of blood. i caught him in the act and it looked as if he was just playing. i contacted the breeder who said to call anytime and he was really good. he said to bring him back and he would exchange him for a pup. only problem is he will put charlie down . i dont want this to happen full stop. after a while we came up with the idea of putting a muzzle on him when he is with the chooks so they can't be hurt. he is fine with them when i'm there and i don't think he has tasted blood yet. does anybody have any suggestions????

[Steve]

well, he has attacked another chook now. a couple escaped yesterday as i was collecting the eggs. he ripped a fair few feathers out but this time he tore the skin a bit and if you look closely you can see a bit of blood. i caught him in the act and it looked as if he was just playing. i contacted the breeder who said to call anytime and he was really good. he said to bring him back and he would exchange him for a pup. only problem is he will put charlie down . i dont want this to happen full stop. after a while we came up with the idea of putting a muzzle on him when he is with the chooks so they can't be hurt. he is fine with them when i'm there and i don't think he has tasted blood yet. does anybody have any suggestions????

Is this a papered dog?

[Guest stuffthejoneses]

well, he has attacked another chook now. a couple escaped yesterday as i was collecting the eggs. he ripped a fair few feathers out but this time he tore the skin a bit and if you look closely you can see a bit of blood. i caught him in the act and it looked as if he was just playing. i contacted the breeder who said to call anytime and he was really good. he said to bring him back and he would exchange him for a pup. only problem is he will put charlie down . i dont want this to happen full stop. after a while we came up with the idea of putting a muzzle on him when he is with the chooks so they can't be hurt. he is fine with them when i'm there and i don't think he has tasted blood yet. does anybody have any suggestions????

Is this a papered dog?

not sure what you mean... he doesn't have kcc papers or anything. he's not pampered either.

[persephone]

'tasting blood' , to me , doesn't mean anything. The fun, for the dog, is in the chase/the noise, the effects . he is playing .. and it is fun!

Unfortunately, he can still injure/kill a chook with a muzzle on.

You can not safely leave a muzzle on an unsupervised dog . There are way too many things to go wrong :(

A muzzle also needs to be the correct type- and fitted properly.

Have you trained hom to wear a muzzle? It needs to be done as part of training , so the dog doesn't panic- or get in trouble trying to remove the muzzle .

[Guest stuffthejoneses]

'tasting blood' , to me , doesn't mean anything. The fun, for the dog, is in the chase/the noise, the effects . he is playing .. and it is fun!

Unfortunately, he can still injure/kill a chook with a muzzle on.

You can not safely leave a muzzle on an unsupervised dog . There are way too many things to go wrong :(

A muzzle also needs to be the correct type- and fitted properly.

Have you trained hom to wear a muzzle? It needs to be done as part of training , so the dog doesn't panic- or get in trouble trying to remove the muzzle .

i've only had him for 3 weeks, he has been in a paddock with chooks at his old home since he was a pup. that's what i don't understand. i personally don't like muzzles, but i'll do anything to not have him put down.

[Steve]

Have you tied him up so he cant get to them when you are not there? Bonding him and teching him is going to take you up to 12 weeks - whats the point of putting a muzzle on him when he will simply do what he's doing when it comes off?

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

my understanding is that these dogs bond to particular animals and if you sell the animals or move the dog away from his animals - you may need to start again with the bonding.

One of my friends had a maremma in with chooks, turkeys, ducks and goats with kids. It was fine. It used to be with the sheep but they sold its bonded ewe and so it wouldn't guard that flock anymore.

I don't know how you go about rebonding the dog. I know that my friends chooks and etc were locked up at night and the dog stopped foxes coming near the chook pens.

Maybe some of those big geese would help? They're much more assertive. Or ask the breeder. Although it reads like the breeder thinks this dog is a lost cause and can't be retrained. If the dog was "papered" (registered with the breed club and maybe the ANKC) it might still have been useful as a stud dog - maybe. Sometimes they can be rehomed as pets.

[Steve]

my understanding is that these dogs bond to particular animals and if you sell the animals or move the dog away from his animals - you may need to start again with the bonding.

One of my friends had a maremma in with chooks, turkeys, ducks and goats with kids. It was fine. It used to be with the sheep but they sold its bonded ewe and so it wouldn't guard that flock anymore.

I don't know how you go about rebonding the dog. I know that my friends chooks and etc were locked up at night and the dog stopped foxes coming near the chook pens.

Maybe some of those big geese would help? They're much more assertive. Or ask the breeder. Although it reads like the breeder thinks this dog is a lost cause and can't be retrained. If the dog was "papered" (registered with the breed club and maybe the ANKC) it might still have been useful as a stud dog - maybe. Sometimes they can be rehomed as pets.

if it was papered I wouldnt touch it for stud services - and not guarding and doing what ist doing because its not the same animals isnt the same as what is going on here.

Clearly the dog hasnt been trained not to play with the animals its bonding with when it was younger and until that is done anything else is a wasted effort .

The best way to do that is to tie the dog up where it is with the chickens but where he cant play with them while you are not there.

When you are there correct him if he runs after them or attemps to play with them in anyway. It wont just happen in a few days it takes weeks in a dog this age.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Steve

[Clyde]

I'm sorry STJ's but I suspect this is why he was going so cheap to begin with. If he was that good with chooks, and at his age, he would be a valuable working dog and not an 'open to offers' type scenario. I hope you find some useful info here

[Guest stuffthejoneses]

Have you tied him up so he cant get to them when you are not there? Bonding him and teching him is going to take you up to 12 weeks - whats the point of putting a muzzle on him when he will simply do what he's doing when it comes off?

when i'm not there, the chooks are in their run and he is outside. i'm worried about tethering as although there is plenty of areas he can't get to, the chooks can still get close enough for him to "play with".