Unusual Titre Test Result

[Staff'n'Toller]

It's also likely Westielover, that your house dogs get a nice continuous exposure to KC to keep their immunity high.

This is the part I either don't understand, or think we often misunderstand.

To me, immunity is immunity. Doesn't immunity mean the body recognises the disease and therefore has the anti-bodies (or, as time and low or no exposure goes by, the "memory" of the antibodies) in preparedness to combat the introduction of the disease should the dog contract it?

Is there really such a thing as "more immune" or "higher immunity"?

I don't think so - not how I understand it.

You're either immune or not immune, no?

This question not directed to you specifically or inparticular, SnT - just using your quote as the example of what I'm referring to :).

I understand what you're saying. And I agree with it according to Jean Dodds teachings, but I'll let you know the reason why I said it:

There are more strains (?viral) of KC than we vaccinate for.

Why do we see dogs in my practice regularly who have yearly C5 vacc's but catch KC at the dog park? Aren't they 'immune'? Why weren't their memory cells sparked instead? Why did they become symptomatic? Surely they are not all non-responders? (Maybe they are??)

Conversely, why have my own dogs not had a bout of KC since before I started nursing, despite the fact the Stafford has not been KC vacc'd since 2003, and my Toller since 2006..??? FTR I may virucide the soles of my shoes whilst mopping the floor but the dogs come into contact with my shoes and clothes when I walk in the door.

Not looking for an argument with anyone, just my own general musings. :)

Whilst I follow Jean Dodds protocol myself, and I think it makes sense, is she the gospel? Do we know all there is to know about viruses?

When I went through Vet Nursing school, I witnessed a very heated discussion between our lecturer (a retired Vet) and the vaccine company rep (also a Vet). My lecturer argued that at a specific point in time Distemper seemed to disappear. City dogs were just starting to be vacc'd - country dogs, where he worked - certainly were not. He was in a large farm dog/greyhound breeding area and argued until he was very red in the face that Distemper was very commonly seen, and over a period of months it subsided, never to return to previous levels. His argument being that herd immunity did not yet exist in the 'country dog' population.

Edited January 20, 2013 by Staff'n'Toller

[Staff'n'Toller]

Thread killer!

I was hoping someone would have some answers to my anecdotes.

[Erny]

Ok - you asked for it, :laugh: ......

I understand what you're saying. And I agree with it according to Jean Dodds teachings, but I'll let you know the reason why I said it:

There are more strains (?viral) of KC than we vaccinate for.

I realise that - and in effect that means that any of the strains not vaccinated for or to which the dog has not been exposed to and/or recovered from, there is no immunity. IE The body has no forward preparedness to fight off the disease and the body is more heavily taxed as it develops the antibodies needed to do so.

Why do we see dogs in my practice regularly who have yearly C5 vacc's but catch KC at the dog park? Aren't they 'immune'? Why weren't their memory cells sparked instead? Why did they become symptomatic? Surely they are not all non-responders? (Maybe they are??)

Becoming immune doesn't mean the disease cannot invade/enter the body. It means (to me, at least) that the body is already prepared to stave off the disease it has been exposed to and to fight off infections. It depends on what the disease is, the severity and the strain, but with immunity to specific disease (including "disease strain") there is the ability for the body to fight off the disease without exhibition of symptoms.

Conversely, why have my own dogs not had a bout of KC since before I started nursing, despite the fact the Stafford has not been KC vacc'd since 2003, and my Toller since 2006..??? FTR I may virucide the soles of my shoes whilst mopping the floor but the dogs come into contact with my shoes and clothes when I walk in the door.

Because perhaps your dogs have been previously exposed to Canine Cough in the past and developed a natural immunity? I'm not sure how this question relates to "Immune is immune" though, which is what I am presuming your post was responding to.

Not looking for an argument with anyone, just my own general musings. :)

I like musings. They let you wonder and ponder and meander backwards and forwards until you can draw your own conclusions, inclinations etc. :)

Whilst I follow Jean Dodds protocol myself, and I think it makes sense, is she the gospel? Do we know all there is to know about viruses?

IMO, no-one is ever "the gospel" in an 'absolute' sense. But I do know there are people who I think have the highest understanding based on sound knowledge, experience and research of a particular topic and until someone tops them, they are for me "the gospel" for the information currently available. To me, Dr Jean Dodds is one of those . I'm not closed-minded to the arguments or debates by people who don't carry the same view, but they need to be as convincing (with factual researched support) as the one I believe in.

When I went through Vet Nursing school, I witnessed a very heated discussion between our lecturer (a retired Vet) and the vaccine company rep (also a Vet). My lecturer argued that at a specific point in time Distemper seemed to disappear. City dogs were just starting to be vacc'd - country dogs, where he worked - certainly were not. He was in a large farm dog/greyhound breeding area and argued until he was very red in the face that Distemper was very commonly seen, and over a period of months it subsided, never to return to previous levels. His argument being that herd immunity did not yet exist in the 'country dog' population.

I don't think I'm following ......

ETA: And I'm still not sure how what you wrote in your post raises a question about the idea of "Immunity is Immunity"

Edited January 22, 2013 by Erny

[Jumabaar]

Here is an article- a little dated and probably a little biased but it does bring up a little about why we titre test and that titres mean different things to different diseases.

http://www.synbiotics.com/Products/CompanionAnimals/Canine/TiterCHEK-CDV-CPV-TiterTesting/96-0460-RoundTableDiscussion.pdf

Also immunity is a bit of a continuum IMO. The body only has a set amount of resources, so there may be times when a disease that the animal has responded to in the past does manage to overwhelm the immune system. This is why I only use a C3 because I dont want to risk one of those being ignored/missed by the body because it has 5 or 7 different antigens presented at the same time.

As mentioned in the article there is also sterile and non sterile immunity- so two different levels of immunity.

Also from Jean Dodds website:

Properly immunized animals have sterilizing immunity that not only prevents clinical disease but also prevents infection, and only the presence of antibody can prevent infection. As stated by eminent expert Dr. Ronald Schultz in discussing the value of vaccine titer testing, these tests “show that an animal with a positive test has sterilizing immunity and should be protected from infection. If that animal were vaccinated it would not respond with a significant increase in antibody titer, but may develop a hypersensitivity to vaccine components (e.g. fetal bovine serum). Furthermore, the animal doesn't need to be revaccinated and should not be revaccinated since the vaccine could cause an adverse reaction (hypersensitivity disorder). You should avoid vaccinating animals that are already protected. It is often said that the antibody level detected is “only a snapshot in time". That's simply not true; it is more a “motion picture that plays for years".

Once again it comes down to what has been challenge tested- ie where animals have been exposed to the disease after being tested at different levels and not succumbed. It doesnt mean lower titre levels or a titre level of 0 means your dog wont be protected, more that it hasnt been tested so no one is willing to put their neck on the line to say it does incase they get sued for false information. What is logical and proven in the lab needs to be proven through clinical trials before professionals are willing to recommend it. That doesn't stop consumers making informed decisions though and going against recommendations.

With the diseases we vaccinate against I am happy to just give puppy vaccines, titre at 12mths and not bother from there on.

Staff'n'Toller- thats very interesting. I wonder if the virus mutated to be slightly less virulent in the vets area?

Edited January 22, 2013 by Jumabaar

[Erny]

Once again it comes down to what has been challenge tested- ie where animals have been exposed to the disease after being tested at different levels and not succumbed. It doesnt mean lower titre levels or a titre level of 0 means your dog wont be protected, more that it hasnt been tested so no one is willing to put their neck on the line to say it does incase they get sued for false information. What is logical and proven in the lab needs to be proven through clinical trials before professionals are willing to recommend it. That doesn't stop consumers making informed decisions though and going against recommendations.

With the diseases we vaccinate against I am happy to just give puppy vaccines, titre at 12mths and not bother from there on.

[Jumabaar]

Once again it comes down to what has been challenge tested- ie where animals have been exposed to the disease after being tested at different levels and not succumbed. It doesnt mean lower titre levels or a titre level of 0 means your dog wont be protected, more that it hasnt been tested so no one is willing to put their neck on the line to say it does incase they get sued for false information. What is logical and proven in the lab needs to be proven through clinical trials before professionals are willing to recommend it. That doesn't stop consumers making informed decisions though and going against recommendations.

With the diseases we vaccinate against I am happy to just give puppy vaccines, titre at 12mths and not bother from there on.

Its the same reason we had yearly vaccination for so long. The more pressure there is from consumers and pet owners the more chance there is of people/companies/scientists doing the studies we need to look after our pets better.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Jumabaar

[Staff'n'Toller]

Thanks for the comments.

Erny the Distemper paragraph was just some interesting info to add, it wasn't directly related to high immunity etc.

I will read the article but I won't write any more, I think I will just make myself and everyone else more confused. :laugh:

Kennel cough is not a good example anyway due to it's multiple strains.