Champions

[espinay2]

The rare breeds are certainly a problem but could be easily solved by requiring say 4-Best of Breed placing.

As for many less numeric breeds many of the BOB's are 6 pointers I am not sure that this is the solution.

I have known people who lived in Perth,Darwin, Adelaide and Hobart who travel to Speciality Shows in Sydney and Newcastle so I cant understand the locality being such a handicap.

Cost can be prohibitive for some. Late last year myself and another breeder took three dogs and a couple of puppies to Melbourne to compete under a breed specialist (yes, we did very well thank you). The cost just to hire the van for the weekend to transport us, our gear and our dogs was over a thousand dollars. That is not an expense I can go to very often and I don't think people should be looked down upon if their budget doesnt stretch to frequent interstate trips. There are a lot that have to travel a lot further than we do too. (No use me going to Sydney either BTW if you think that would be closer for me to attend those metro shows - we would still be the only ones of my breed there. I go to Sydney if there is a judge I am interested in just as I go to any other show - not because it is 'metro').

Remember too that for many breeds, we don't have the same sort of system as you do with GSD's when it comes to specialty shows. In my breed while there may be some breed shows run annually in other states, most are not specialty shows as we simply dont have the judges. The judges are the same one you get at other shows (for example - there is a breed show coming up in SA that I guess I could enter. However, the judge, who is not a breed specialist, is one from my local area here who we see at shows all the time - showing at those same country shows ). I would and do travel for international specialist judges or even an international judge that was half way familiar with my breed. Unfortunately there has only been one international breed specialist that I am aware of in this country in about the last 10 years!

The other point is that I have NEVER seen a Judge not award a place let alone a Challenge .

I have seen and heard of this on more than one occasion. I am Group 6 so most of the examples I have seen or heard of have been in this group. They have been at both country and minor metro shows and at Royals.

I have observed a bitch awarded a Challenge that could hardly move around the show ring.

IMO this is more an issue with judges training in and understanding of structure and movement than an issue with the system of awarding challenges and titles.

Edited July 5, 2011 by espinay2

[Dogsfevr]

Lots of comments

some constructive others well I accept because that is your ideas same as this thread was my idea. Now to those that asked questions about me personally. Yes I have Judged (Speciality Shows). Yes I do show GSDs and show at Speciality Shows Only (because I to Live In The County Where There Are Only a Few Shows a Year).

I did not see what these personal questions had to do with Cheep Champions but I did answer your thread anyway as what have I to lose.

The rare breeds are certainly a problem but could be easily solved by requiring say 4-Best of Breed placing. I have known people who lived in Perth,Darwin, Adelaide and Hobart who travel to Speciality Shows in Sydney and Newcastle so I cant understand the locality being such a handicap.

I admit that our CHs were gained in the Metro Area as there were quite a lot of shows we could attend at that time. There are still a lot of country people who attend Metro Shows so it would come down to ones dedication in travelling or not.

The other point is that I have NEVER seen a Judge not award a place let alone a Challenge . I have observed a bitch awarded a Challenge that could hardly move around the show ring. That particular animal is now a CH and will probably be breed from. This is what I am about - someone will buy a puppy with the same problem as its dam. Do we as responsible people allow this or do we try to tighten up the CHs being awarded.

Any Ideas.

Judges are refusing quite alot these days which is good.

I have attended GSD shows(as an interested on looker & someone who has shown a GSD ) & seen many poor examples awarded Have you ever not awarded??

I live in Perth & i travel east to my breeds specialties as there are known in my home state .

It costs me now with the new rates over $1000 to fly the dogs plus airfare etc etc

The GSD people who head east from Perth don't find it easy or cheap.Infact it is very difficult to fly as the airlines only take so many dogs per flight to the point i think the GSD people here have worked a deal with the AAE frieght planes to take dogs .

I flew east last month & for 1 dog it was $435 return i will be flying 3 dogs latter this year so this year i will spend near $3000 to fly east to show with expenses,entries etc etc .Would you pay that each year??

And you complain because your in country NSW

What about the breeds that don't have breed clubs??

How about giving the judges more credit ??

After all as i have said i have seen some awful dogs awarded at GSD shows so surely those judges should be questioned as well as to why they don't no award??

There is no perfect system nor does Australia revolve around NSW or the popular breeds that may have quantity but often the amount of quality can be very poor .

[benshiva]

I've seen dogs refused challenges. In fact I saw it on the weekend, in Sydney, in Group 5!!

[Bilbo Baggins]

I am sometimes struck by the irony of a thought process that will see the same folk who constantly lament the decline of entries at shows, point fingers at the objectivity of the judges and the quality of dogs made up to Champion status.

They lament the lack of new faces to the fancy but won't sell a dog to a show newb (or indeed to anyone on Main Register) or allow their stud dog to be used outside their own kennel.

This behaviour reaches fever pitch on Ozshow. I rarely bother to read posts there anymore. Leaving aside the brags and the offtopic stuff, either the sky is falling, the judges are crooked, someone's dogs are crap or all of the above. And then we have the constant "hear hears" from a few posters adding no value at all.

We don't need to look outside the purebred dog fancy for the source of the decline in numbers.. we have enough folk contributing to it from within.

I do think the term "petrol champion" is an insulting one. The system exists to refuse dogs challenges. Lets stick with it.

LovemyGSD:

The other point is that I have NEVER seen a Judge not award a place let alone a Challenge

You need to get out more.. I've seen it reasonably frequently. Not in Group 5 but definitely in Groups 3,4 and 7

I've seen an entire Challenge line up refused CC. I've seen BOB refused. And I've definitely seen plenty of classes refused.

I've seen dogs excused from the ring too. Mind you, this was all in the country.

Well said poodlefan. :clap:

LovemyGSD you obviously do not show very much. ;) ;) ;) ;)

Over the Noorat weekend this year I would say there where non awarding in all groups over a few breeds.

And this is not the first time I have seen it.

[Allerzeit]

The other point is that I have NEVER seen a Judge not award a place let alone a Challenge .

I've seen it and experienced it - and we don't even show that often.

Earlier this year my own bitch was refused challenge - she was slightly lame in the ring (we found out later that she had damaged a sesamoid), and was rightly refused challenge because of it. I didn't know she was lame before going in the ring, otherwise I would have scratched her - but I could feel her lameness as we ran around the ring, and although I was disappointed at having the challenge refused, I also understood and supported the judges decision.

[Allerzeit]

I have known people who lived in Perth,Darwin, Adelaide and Hobart who travel to Speciality Shows in Sydney and Newcastle so I cant understand the locality being such a handicap.

Cost can be prohibitive for some. Late last year myself and another breeder took three dogs and a couple of puppies to Melbourne to compete under a breed specialist (yes, we did very well thank you). The cost just to hire the van for the weekend to transport us, our gear and our dogs was over a thousand dollars. That is not an expense I can go to very often and I don't think people should be looked down upon if their budget doesnt stretch to frequent interstate trips.

Totally agree with this. It costs us around $1200 just to get to and from the mainland (car with dog trailer, plus accommodation on the ferry) - so that is the minimum cost just to get to a speciality in Melbourne. Extra in additional fuel costs if we wanted to go to a speciality anywhere other then Melbourne.

While that might be doable for some, for others it's out of reach financially. We are aiming to try to get to Melbourne for one speciality a year - but at that price and on our income, we simply won't always be able to afford it.

[conztruct]

I agree with the point of view that titles are too easy to get but it's hard to find a system that measures worthiness in a balanced way that provides a level playing field for all participants.

The thing I keep coming back to (and many others have identified it) is that the judge is the one who provides the points that contribute to the championship title so if there are unworthy exhibits being titled then this would indicate a problem with the decision-maker, rather than the system.

Maybe there needs to be more accountability put by the judges decisions, more monitoring of judging and greater education to ensure that judges are equipped with the knowledge to make a good decision. I'll qualify this by saying that judging is an incredibly difficult job, there is so much to remember and it's very subjective - I think there will always be questions raised about the quality of animals - look at what breeders are breeding - there are some really profound variations within breeds yet all parties may think they are doing the right thing.

Edited July 5, 2011 by conztruct

[yarracully]

Yes I do show GSDs and show at Speciality Shows Only (because I to Live In The County Where There Are Only a Few Shows a Year).

I'm a little bit confused about this statement, Luvmygsd. You say you live in the country where there are only a few shows then say you only do speciality shows only. I would have thought if there weren't many shows in your area you would be supporting any shows that were on.

Perhaps if you did attend more shows you would see challenges not awarded. I can remember at a royal entire breeds being refused challenges, so it does happen.

As someone else already mentioned in many cases when a challenge is refused the only people aware are the judge, steward and exhibitor. We have a friend that was refused once and we didn't even know until they came back to our camp and said about it.

[D & D]

Yes I have Judged (Speciality Shows). Yes I do show GSDs and show at Speciality Shows Only (because I to Live In The County Where There Are Only a Few Shows a Year).

I have known people who lived in Perth,Darwin, Adelaide and Hobart who travel to Speciality Shows in Sydney and Newcastle so I cant understand the locality being such a handicap.

The other point is that I have NEVER seen a Judge not award a place let alone a Challenge .

Any Ideas.

So, you only show at specialty shows because you live in the country? Seems like you don't want to travel but think that others should?

I've known people from Darwin to travel to their breed specialty shows, too. They did quite well

Personally, I'm not in a position to travel to a specialty show and find somewhat hypocritical of someone to judge me on that when they choose the shows they do because they 'live in the country'.

I've seen quite a few judges non award. Some I've known about at the time, some I've heard about later.

[yarracully]

I have known people who lived in Perth,Darwin, Adelaide and Hobart who travel to Speciality Shows in Sydney and Newcastle so I cant understand the locality being such a handicap.

I notice also that it is possible to fly from Adelaide to Sydney for about two hundred dollars. From where we are to fly to sydney (same state) is nearly six hundred dollars and the planes we get do not carry animals. So saying that people fly from capital city to capital city is fine but there are a lot of us that don't live in capital cities to enjoy the luxury of cheap flights.

For us to go to Sydney its either a two day drive (1400 k's) or drive to Adelaide (550 k's) find somewhere to leave a car and trailer and fly to Sydney. So a trip there would be one to two days depending on seat availability. (you might be able to do it in one day but you need to be mindful of a flight curfew in Adelaide) and then there is the hassle of getting around when you arrive.

Then there is also the issue of the number of dogs that will be carried on the plane. If two or three exhibitors were to fly to the same place on the same plane the airline wont guarantee that all dogs will be on the plane. And I for one will not fly anywhere unless I know for certain my dogs are on the same plane.

It seems quite obvious from your statement about locality not being a handicap that perhaps you haven't travelled much around this great big land. Not everyone has everything just down the road.

[Havasneeze]

The rare breeds are certainly a problem but could be easily solved by requiring say 4-Best of Breed placing. I have known people who lived in Perth,Darwin, Adelaide and Hobart who travel to Speciality Shows in Sydney and Newcastle so I cant understand the locality being such a handicap.

Firstly, let me say that I take exception to someone saying that my rare breed (or any rare breed) is a problem. I also think you are missing the point. If you are getting 6 point challenges week in week out, you are getting BOB anyway so 4 BOB placings would mean nothing. Also, it is more difficult to win with a rare breed than with a numerically larger breed. I am aware that many Judges are told, whilst going through JTS in my state, that they should be putting up the more popular breeds, not the smaller numbered or rare breeds. So if you think showing a rare breed to CH is a piece of cake, I urge you to give it a go yourself instead of "assuming" that ALL rare or numerically small breeds are "petrol" champions.

[RallyValley]

I have to say people with numerically strong breeds and people with less common breeds will never see eye to eye. Bottom line is at the end of the day your dog either beat lots of dogs and got large challenge points minimum 4 times to title or 18 judges signed a 6pt cert stating they believe the dog is worthy of the title Ch.

[Rantino]

I have a rare breed as well. She got almost to champion status without beating another dog because there wasn't one entered! She won more than her fair share of classes in group but under your criteria she should not have champion status. In the end, we purchased another one of the same breed because they would at least compete against each other. Plenty of good judges including international judges, tell me that they are good examples of the breed so why shouldn't they earn their champions????

You have your GSD becase you like the breed. I have my rare one because I prefer them. I have been here a couple of years now and really get offended the way some of the been around for years, bred heaps of champions In a popular breed, look down on those of us who don't fit your narrow view of the dog showing world. At least we are out there, showing and trying to maintain the rare breeds we love. If my reward for keeping a rare breed In existence for a while longer with my petrol, no competition champion is a 'cheap' title then I figure I deserve it.

I just want to say Bravo!!!!

me too

funny how these threads are usually started by someone with a "common" breed.

Gee thats strange. I own the 'common' breed everyone is talking about, yet at a recent 'city' show there were only 4 dogs competing, one of which was a baby puppy.

So much for being common.

Cheers Leanne

I should also mention that those people that only show at specilties with German Shepherds don't covert the Aust Ch title.

The only thing they are interested in is the grading and critique given by the judge. As far as refusing challenges goes it is the complete opposite.

Excellent gradings may be given to 95% of the class and the class maybe 50 animals. To me this is overkill and I find it hard to believe that there can

be that many "far above average" dogs being shown.

I show allbreeds most of the time but do breed survey my dogs and show at specialities rarely.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Rantino

[Astese]

Dont be confused Yarracully about where we lived - we lived in Sydney for sometime than moved to the mid west. Many people do that you know. As I said before you only need to attend One Speciality Show and be placed. By being placed at a Speciality it shows that your breeding is on the right track or not.

[Astese]

Sorry Yarracully your wrong again assuming we have not travelled around Australia competing. Actually we have attended Shows in every State of Australia and yes we know the cost but it can be done with careful planning.

I think you are getting off the thread and nit picking at what we may or may not have done in our Showing life of some 30years or more.

[poodlefan]

Sorry Yarracully your wrong again assuming we have not travelled around Australia competing. Actually we have attended Shows in every State of Australia and yes we know the cost but it can be done with careful planning.

I think you are getting off the thread and nit picking at what we may or may not have done in our Showing life of some 30years or more.

LovemyGSD, you say you no longer show at Allbreeds shows.. how do you know what's currently going on with other breeds and the quality of dogs made up to Champions?

Every refused a challenge yourself when judging?

I'm wondering if you are aware of how many breeds do not have specialty shows.

Edited July 5, 2011 by poodlefan

[WreckitWhippet]

Dont be confused Yarracully about where we lived - we lived in Sydney for sometime than moved to the mid west. Many people do that you know. As I said before you only need to attend One Speciality Show and be placed. By being placed at a Speciality it shows that your breeding is on the right track or not.

No it doesn't.

[Pointers Rule]

Dont be confused Yarracully about where we lived - we lived in Sydney for sometime than moved to the mid west. Many people do that you know. As I said before you only need to attend One Speciality Show and be placed. By being placed at a Speciality it shows that your breeding is on the right track or not.

No it doesn't.

Agreed, be it a specialty show or AB, it is still just one persons opinion and we have all seen judges do some far out things at both levels...

[Ron]

Agree with you RSG

Dont be confused Yarracully about where we lived - we lived in Sydney for sometime than moved to the mid west. Many people do that you know. As I said before you only need to attend One Speciality Show and be placed. By being placed at a Speciality it shows that your breeding is on the right track or not.

No it doesn't.

[SnoPaws]

Dont be confused Yarracully about where we lived - we lived in Sydney for sometime than moved to the mid west. Many people do that you know. As I said before you only need to attend One Speciality Show and be placed. By being placed at a Speciality it shows that your breeding is on the right track or not.

Our current state speciality show would attract around 80ish dogs per year. It is not unusual for there to be 15+ ausbred dogs and only 1 minor puppy. How does placing first when you are the only one in the class guarantee the dog is of championship quality?? I recently attended a speciality show in another state, 1 baby puppy bitch, 1 minor bitch, 1 puppy bitch, 1 junior bitch, 1 baby puppy dog, 1 minor puppy dog and 1 puppy dog. They just had to turn up to be place, how does that guarantee quality Numerically we are a strong breed the usual entry at any metro show is between 20 and 30 dogs, so no easy challenges in our breed. So following your system it would actually be easier for us to title a dog