Pedigree Dog Segment On The 7pm Project

[shortstep]

But how do you do that when many genetic diseases have no tests and others show clear one minute and there the next -

which ones do this? im looking at it from my point of view. we can only test for the ones in breeds that we know that are there. atm there are no schemes going on for PL which is common in toy dogs mainly but can show up in other breeds we are finding out. im talking about diseases/genetic problems like that.

but asking a judge to be able to examine a dog the way a qualified vet does or for an evaluation of a whole pile of test results etc before a dog can be entered or get an award would be a nightmare logistically.

im not really saying this, im not saying for judges to turn into vets. im saying if ANKC had a system whereby puppies in order to be registered had to have certain tests done and then recorded somewhere if clear or what scores for PL or HD or whatever, then the judges and other exhibitors and indeed the public can be assured we are all exhibiting healthy dogs. Then that could carry over to breeding it would help tremendously if everyone had the same info so they can make an informed choice as you have said in the past - good idea i can't really disupte that, i would think to myself that would be progress..

You are saying that you want the known diseases in each breed to be tested/screened for prior to allowing dogs to be registered, I assume only normal dogs can be registered. This would assure the public that only healthy dogs are registered or shown.

I have taken the list of disease from the Uni of Sydney LIDA, for the Chi.

http://sydney.edu.au/vetscience/lida/dogs/search/breed/44/Chihuahua

1. Factor VIII Deficiency

2. Haemophilia A

3. Mitral valve disease

4. Pulmonary stenosis

5. Hypoglycemia

6. Hypothyroidism

7. Hepatic Encephalopathy, Portosystemic.

8. Entropion

9. Cleft Palate

10. Hypoplasia of dens

11. Myasthenia Gravis

12. Osteochondritis dissecans

13. Osteochondrosis dissecans

14. Patellar Luxation

15. Shoulder Luxation

16. Ceroid Lipofuscinosis

17. Corneal Dystrophy

18. Glaucoma

19. Hydrocephalus

20. Iris Atrophy

21. Keratitis sicca

22. Keratoconjunctivitis sicca

23. Lens Luxation

24. Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) (X-linked)

25. Collapsed trachea

Can you go down the list and tell us how each one is tested or screened for?

and if it is a one time test or if it needs to be repeated with the age of the dog?

For example, I seem to be reading that most Chi breed clubs recommend that the Cardiac and Eye certification exams be done more than once on breeding dogs for example.

Anyway what I am thinking is maybe the 'all clear' on health testing would need to be issued more than one time in the dogs life. Not sure how you would handle this, maybe prior to registering any pups a certain list of tests would need to be repeated?

Edited July 9, 2011 by shortstep

[espinay2]

Before they do that they have to at least make it easier for breeders to actually do the testing. For example:

My breed can get Canine Multifocal Retinopathy. There is a DNA test for it. I can not locate ANY company that will test for it (no Aust company will test for it, including the company that holds the licence, and the US company that does it will not do it for Aust dogs because someone in Aust holds the licence for all their tests!!!!)

I want to do heart certs on my dogs. There are three cardiac specialists in Aust - one in Vic and 2 in Qld (so none in NSW). I have been searching for a club run clinic which seems the most common way to do it - earliest I have found is November. I have been trying to find some other way to do it but have been drawing a blank. Vets seem to think you are stupid when you ask and don't know what you are talking about and no one else seems to have a clue. There is no formal system of heart certification that is comparable to ACES for eyes (and there should be IMO!)

Patella Luxation. At the moment testing for this is very informal. Unlike systems overseas where certificates/results are issued it is just a matter of getting your vet to do it, then try to get them to write a letter for your 'proof'. Some seem to not understand the scoring process and as one told me 'grade one is excellent with no movement' in relation to a patella normal dog. I am resorting to using OFA forms so vets know how and under what system I want them scored. IMO there should be a formal system of testing as there is for HD/ED (though of course no x-ray is needed for this one).

If tests are going to be insisted on, at least make is easier for breeders who WANT to test to do it! (end rant).

[toy dog]

For example, I seem to be reading that most Chi breed clubs recommend that the Cardiac and Eye certification exams be done more than once on breeding dogs for example.

Most? Australian or overseas clubs you are looking at? no aussie chi clubs have any info on breed related health, we use to have it but the webmaster has taken it off for the time being. i noted on the USA chi club that since 2006 some of their show lines are coming up with SM.

I just wonder looking at that link you posted of uni of sydney, where did they get their test subjects from, last submission it said was on the 7th of june.

i could well believe PRA might be in the american dogs as its a well known fact that merle chis have turned up there by crossing shelties, dachund and other breeds with merle genes. as for the other ones they listed, they are quite common not only in chis but in all toy breeds across the board.

as i have said before, trying to get breeders attitudes to change to test before breeding is an almighty challenge. i felt like those people did in PDE trying to get the cav breeders to test their stock for SM. and still there were some that refused to test and continued to breed selfishly.

it seems like the american club has health clinics where all breeders can get their dogs checked and certified by specialists so they are a bit more switched on than here in our clubs, this has been BTW suggested many times over the years with not much interest. as the national club determined when asked to address issues, "its up to the individual breeder to decide on the best option for each their stock"....IMO, this gets us nowhere, big cop out. This is for PL only all other genetic conditions our breed is prone to, well work it out by what i've been saying, crickets chirping comes to mind.

this is what i found about patellas in american site:

Genetics, heritability and interviews with the experts74% of breeders and owners who returned their recent CCA health surveys had one or more dogs affected with luxating patellas. There was an average of almost 3 dogs affected for every one survey returned. In a recent study of small breed dogs in Austria, 76.9% of chihuahuas examined had some degree of luxation4. Luxating patellas are an important health issue that needs to be addressed in our breed. It is imperative that breeders strive to breed sound patellas and the only way to do that is to know the facts and to make responsible choices in breeding programs.

Luxating patellas are genetic in origin1, 2, 3. It is easy to rationalize that they are brought on by injury or exercise, but this is very rarely the case. According to Gert Breur, DVM, PhD, DACVS Purdue University and

Dr. Rory Todhunter, Cornell University Clinical Sciences professor, If an injury precipitates luxation of the patellas, it is highly likely there was a genetic predisposition to begin with (See full interviews below).

As responsible breeders we should not make excuses for breeding dogs with luxating patellas at the expense of the health of our breed's gene pool. They are not easily "bred out" because of their genetic nature. Luxating patellas are polygenic threshold traits1,2.

A polygenic trait is one that is produced by multiple genes3. In the case of luxating patellas, the polygenes control the shallowness of the groove in the femur, the development of the guiding bony ridges and the strength or attachment of the ligaments governing movement of the patella. All of these factors are determined polygenically and contribute towards the onset of the defect2.

Several genes also influence a threshold trait, but the trait will not be expressed unless a critical number of those genes is present1,2. This means that a totally normal dog may be carrying a very high number of undesirable genes for a trait, but not quite the critical number needed for the trait to be expressed1.

Threshold traits develop only when the additive effects of genes exceed this critical number. If a puppy has luxating patellas, he or she inherited the critical number of genes from both parents that were needed to express the trait. If the "magic" number is ten, the puppy could have received four from the dam and six from the sire, or even just one from the dam and nine from the sire. Both parents are not necessarily equally at fault.

Dogs or bitches that have any degree of luxating patellas are carrying a higher number of the necessary genes which they will pass onto their offspring. It is not "bred out" if the puppies turn out to be physically normal- phenotypically they may be, but genotypically they may still be much more likely to reproduce luxating patellas.

This is why affected Chihuahuas should be removed from breeding programs. Siblings of affected chihuahuas are also at a higher risk and should be monitored and offspring followed up on1. Sires or dams that produce a higher than average number of offspring with luxating patellas should also be removed from breeding programs.

According to Robinson, "Family selection is more effective than individual selection in dealing with polygenic anomalies...Family selection is the most effective means of dealing with threshold characters.2"

A dog with normal patellas whose dam had luxating patellas will likely be carrying a much higher number of the genes needed to produce luxating patellas than a dog from two normal parents. If a dog with this background is linebred on it may produce an extraordinary number of offspring with luxating patellas even though the dog in question is phenotypically normal. If a dog with this background became a popular sire, it could do irreparable damage to the gene pool. Any dog or bitch with luxating patellas should never be bred.

espinay2 wrote: Patella Luxation. At the moment testing for this is very informal. Unlike systems overseas where certificates/results are issued it is just a matter of getting your vet to do it, then try to get them to write a letter for your 'proof'. Some seem to not understand the scoring process and as one told me 'grade one is excellent with no movement' in relation to a patella normal dog. I am resorting to using OFA forms so vets know how and under what system I want them scored. IMO there should be a formal system of testing as there is for HD/ED (though of course no x-ray is needed for this one).

agree, some vets i approached did not want to grade at all, and testing of PL varies from vet to vet its an extremely vague system, thats why i am writing about it and reporting whatever i find to try and help and inform others. as i say, we have come a long way from the days when no one discussed this and if they did, they'd be held accountable. me writing articles and talking about these issues in the open has helped alot particularly new breeders who are more than happy to share information amongst their peers. I have resorted to using a certificate on the back is diagrams and grading info for the vets to follow. it helps to use a vet that is inline with your own thinking. i have devised my own testing procedure and then for clarification i go to my own vet to get formal grades done.

Edited July 10, 2011 by toy dog

[Steve]

And none of these tests will tell you if a dog can get pregnant on its own, if it can maintain a pregnancy without help, if it can free whelp , if it can mother effectively.

And how do they get to have it both ways

On one hand they want more genes, less inbreeding so the recessives are not clustered in breeds but spread around and as that happens we know what to test for less and less and checking for one disease which is known in the breed might still mean there are several which havent or cant be tested for been tested for. Will we also require that dogs competing in agility have to do the same tests, or competing in working trials etc. whats the difference? If we are judging a dog on agility or obedience thats all we are judging it on so why would we judge a dog on anything other than conformation in a conformation ring?

We need the breed standards re written so they are less open to interpretation and we need judges who can effectively judge on that standard.

Then we say as we do now the dog is judged on the day for how it conforms to the breed standard and if thats important to us when we choose a mate we take that into account but its only one of the things we need to take into account.

The show ring is to judge the dog thats entered against its breed standard - thats what it always has been and in my opinion all it ever should be and if the KC simply said that and worked at breed standard interpretations life would be much simpler when we defend ourselves.

[toy dog]

And none of these tests will tell you if a dog can get pregnant on its own, if it can maintain a pregnancy without help, if it can free whelp , if it can mother effectively.

And how do they get to have it both ways

On one hand they want more genes, less inbreeding so the recessives are not clustered in breeds but spread around and as that happens we know what to test for less and less and checking for one disease which is known in the breed might still mean there are several which havent or cant be tested for been tested for. Will we also require that dogs competing in agility have to do the same tests, or competing in working trials etc. whats the difference? If we are judging a dog on agility or obedience thats all we are judging it on so why would we judge a dog on anything other than conformation in a conformation ring?

We need the breed standards re written so they are less open to interpretation and we need judges who can effectively judge on that standard.

Then we say as we do now the dog is judged on the day for how it conforms to the breed standard and if thats important to us when we choose a mate we take that into account but its only one of the things we need to take into account.

The show ring is to judge the dog thats entered against its breed standard - thats what it always has been and in my opinion all it ever should be and if the KC simply said that and worked at breed standard interpretations life would be much simpler when we defend ourselves.

i dont know why a breed standard has to be so open to individual interpretation. cant really fathom that at all, some say for eg. moderately short nose, so what is moderately short nose. ours for instance says, weight can be from 2-6 lbs with a preference being 4-6 lbs. no height specifications at all so a dog can be quite tall and still be within weight range. so some people who are enquring about pups ask for height measurements. i dont' know why that can't be included in the standard and other breed standards as well. pretty vague really isn't it.

[Steve]

And none of these tests will tell you if a dog can get pregnant on its own, if it can maintain a pregnancy without help, if it can free whelp , if it can mother effectively.

And how do they get to have it both ways

On one hand they want more genes, less inbreeding so the recessives are not clustered in breeds but spread around and as that happens we know what to test for less and less and checking for one disease which is known in the breed might still mean there are several which havent or cant be tested for been tested for. Will we also require that dogs competing in agility have to do the same tests, or competing in working trials etc. whats the difference? If we are judging a dog on agility or obedience thats all we are judging it on so why would we judge a dog on anything other than conformation in a conformation ring?

We need the breed standards re written so they are less open to interpretation and we need judges who can effectively judge on that standard.

Then we say as we do now the dog is judged on the day for how it conforms to the breed standard and if thats important to us when we choose a mate we take that into account but its only one of the things we need to take into account.

The show ring is to judge the dog thats entered against its breed standard - thats what it always has been and in my opinion all it ever should be and if the KC simply said that and worked at breed standard interpretations life would be much simpler when we defend ourselves.

i dont know why a breed standard has to be so open to individual interpretation. cant really fathom that at all, some say for eg. moderately short nose, so what is moderately short nose. ours for instance says, weight can be from 2-6 lbs with a preference being 4-6 lbs. no height specifications at all so a dog can be quite tall and still be within weight range. so some people who are enquring about pups ask for height measurements. i dont' know why that can't be included in the standard and other breed standards as well. pretty vague really isn't it.

Yep exactly - when you say words like moderately, long , short, etc people see longer, more moderate or shorter as better - depending on the judge.

We need ratios - this bit should equal this bit etc

Take a look at the basset ears set low has seen them set lower and lower and lower - they should have said where they should sit in comparison with the eye level or similar so everyone didnt keep going for lower set.

We rely on this in the breed critiques but even then who is writing the critiques and we shouldnt need a critique - its should be clear to everyone .

[shortstep]

i could well believe PRA might be in the american dogs as its a well known fact that merle chis have turned up there by crossing shelties, dachund and other breeds with merle genes. as for the other ones they listed, they are quite common not only in chis but in all toy breeds across the board.

I have never heard of a connection between any of the PRA diseases and merle gene, ca you give me a refference for where you read that?

Dachshounds and shetland sheepdogs do have PRA but not X linked, so it could not have come from them.

'other ones they listed, they are quite common not only in chis but in all toy breeds across the board'

Sorry not following, are you sayin that all the rest of disease (22 of them)are common in chis and in all toys?

So are they being tested/screened for, or just considered part of the toy breeds?

Are most breeders at least doing a certified eye exam and Cardic exam by speicalist vets on al their breeding dogs?

It seems like the only disease you are worried about is Patellas, but from looking at this list I would say it's severity impact level on the dog would not be that high as compared to many of these diesease, such as Hydrocephalus, Hepatic Encephalopathy, Portosystemic, Hypoplasia of dens or Myasthenia Gravis amoung others. At least PL can be repaired and the dogs can usualy live a normal life, most these others would be far more impacting on their lives and even fatal.

Edited July 10, 2011 by shortstep

[espinay2]

I have taken the list of disease from the Uni of Sydney LIDA, for the Chi.

http://sydney.edu.au...ed/44/Chihuahua

We should perhaps be clear that this is a list of both congenital and hereditary conditions complied by LIDA.

Some of the conditions are listed as a result of a vet seeing a dog in their clinic that the owner says is that breed and reporting the condition for the database.

There is no indication in this list which are genetic and which are congenital as a result of (for example) one reporting.

I will give an example: The listing of Vaginal Hyperplasia for Pyrenean Mountain Dog was the result of a vet seeing a puppy of that breed with a mild case of this condition (which later corrected as the pup grew) and reporting it to the database.

I also find it interesting that they specifically list X-Linked PRA for the breed when there is currently no genetic data available on PRA in the Pyrenean. No work has yet been done to genetically determine the type of PRA carried by Pyrs, with the exception of a genetic marker for CMR (which in fact can be mistaken for PRA in an eye exam).

Edited July 10, 2011 by espinay2

[toy dog]

i could well believe PRA might be in the american dogs as its a well known fact that merle chis have turned up there by crossing shelties, dachund and other breeds with merle genes. as for the other ones they listed, they are quite common not only in chis but in all toy breeds across the board.

I have never heard of a connection between any of the PRA diseases and merle gene, ca you give me a refference for where you read that?

Dachshounds and shetland sheepdogs do have PRA but not X linked, so it could not have come from them.

'other ones they listed, they are quite common not only in chis but in all toy breeds across the board'

Sorry not following, are you sayin that all the rest of disease (22 of them)are common in chis and in all toys?

So are they being tested/screened for, or just considered part of the toy breeds?

Are most breeders at least doing a certified eye exam and Cardic exam by speicalist vets on al their breeding dogs?

It seems like the only disease you are worried about is Patellas, but from looking at this list I would say it's severity impact level on the dog would not be that high as compared to many of these diesease, such as Hydrocephalus, Hepatic Encephalopathy, Portosystemic, Hypoplasia of dens or Myasthenia Gravis amoung others. At least PL can be repaired and the dogs can usualy live a normal life, most these others would be far more impacting on their lives and even fatal.

chihuahuas were crossed with papillons, miniature pinschers, pomeranians and when the americans discovered them some of the first ones did also have other breeds in them like terriers for instance. i seem to be repeating myself.

im saying that those diseases can also be shared amongst other breeds of dogs. I am referring to patellas as i said being in this breed for many years and seeing many examples of my breed - that this problem is the most common one. i've never heard of a chihuahua affected with PRA, as i say i just wonder where they got their test subjects from and what was the percentage of this disease that they found in chihuahuas. not to say that there are dogs that can and do suffer from all those other problems they listed. patella luxation is wide spread and very very common. so now go off and try and read me out of that quote too why don't you.

i've said over and over again and i will repeat one more time for you. its hard enough to get breeders to test for the most common ailment which is Patella luxation so do you think they are testing for heart and eyes? given that they aren't testing for PL? our breed is relatively healthy otherthan for the patella luxation. its an oberservation on my part as i say seeing many examples over 25-26 years in the breed. so i spose you will get material from the net to prove me wrong on that one too. i'll wait for it..........

play on words, other breeds can be affected by those other problems too. common = patella luxation. im not saying there is a connection between merle and PRA. !!!!

stop trying to herd me into a corner and prove me wrong SS, i don't really appreciate it. im off to vaccum my house thanks rather than sitting on here all day wasting my time.

[shortstep]

i could well believe PRA might be in the american dogs as its a well known fact that merle chis have turned up there by crossing shelties, dachund and other breeds with merle genes. as for the other ones they listed, they are quite common not only in chis but in all toy breeds across the board.

I have never heard of a connection between any of the PRA diseases and merle gene, ca you give me a refference for where you read that?

Dachshounds and shetland sheepdogs do have PRA but not X linked, so it could not have come from them.

'other ones they listed, they are quite common not only in chis but in all toy breeds across the board'

Sorry not following, are you sayin that all the rest of disease (22 of them)are common in chis and in all toys?

So are they being tested/screened for, or just considered part of the toy breeds?

Are most breeders at least doing a certified eye exam and Cardic exam by speicalist vets on al their breeding dogs?

It seems like the only disease you are worried about is Patellas, but from looking at this list I would say it's severity impact level on the dog would not be that high as compared to many of these diesease, such as Hydrocephalus, Hepatic Encephalopathy, Portosystemic, Hypoplasia of dens or Myasthenia Gravis amoung others. At least PL can be repaired and the dogs can usualy live a normal life, most these others would be far more impacting on their lives and even fatal.

chihuahuas were crossed with papillons, miniature pinschers, pomeranians and when the americans discovered them some of the first ones did also have other breeds in them like terriers for instance. i seem to be repeating myself.

im saying that those diseases can also be shared amongst other breeds of dogs. I am referring to patellas as i said being in this breed for many years and seeing many examples of my breed - that this problem is the most common one. i've never heard of a chihuahua affected with PRA, as i say i just wonder where they got their test subjects from and what was the percentage of this disease that they found in chihuahuas. not to say that there are dogs that can and do suffer from all those other problems they listed. patella luxation is wide spread and very very common. so now go off and try and read me out of that quote too why don't you.

i've said over and over again and i will repeat one more time for you. its hard enough to get breeders to test for the most common ailment which is Patella luxation so do you think they are testing for heart and eyes? given that they aren't testing for PL? our breed is relatively healthy otherthan for the patella luxation. its an oberservation on my part as i say seeing many examples over 25-26 years in the breed. so i spose you will get material from the net to prove me wrong on that one too. i'll wait for it..........

play on words, other breeds can be affected by those other problems too. common = patella luxation. im not saying there is a connection between merle and PRA. !!!!

stop trying to herd me into a corner and prove me wrong SS, i don't really appreciate it. im off to vaccum my house thanks rather than sitting on here all day wasting my time.

I am not trying to twist your words, infact I said I did not follow what you had meant, as asked for clarification.

Not putting words in your mouth, it sounds like you said that eye and heart certs are not happening, so to clarify,

Are you getting eye cert and heart cert your dogs before you breed them?

Do you know of any chi breeders in Australia that eye and heart certs their breeding dogs?

[shortstep]

I have taken the list of disease from the Uni of Sydney LIDA, for the Chi.

http://sydney.edu.au...ed/44/Chihuahua

We should perhaps be clear that this is a list of both congenital and hereditary conditions complied by LIDA.

Some of the conditions are listed as a result of a vet seeing a dog in their clinic that the owner says is that breed and reporting the condition for the database.

There is no indication in this list which are genetic and which are congenital as a result of (for example) one reporting.

I will give an example: The listing of Vaginal Hyperplasia for Pyrenean Mountain Dog was the result of a vet seeing a puppy of that breed with a mild case of this condition (which later corrected as the pup grew) and reporting it to the database.

All you need to do is send your evidence that the disease listed is not present in your breed and they will remove it, I know this because I have done it.

BTW congenital does not mean it is not also genetic. For example a cleft palalte is congenital and in breeds where is a common birth defect is thought to inherited (genetic). However it could be caused by chemials, drugs or other causes of disruption in developement which might explain a one off case where it is found a breed that is not known for this defect.

Edited July 10, 2011 by shortstep

[toy dog]

I have taken the list of disease from the Uni of Sydney LIDA, for the Chi.

http://sydney.edu.au...ed/44/Chihuahua

We should perhaps be clear that this is a list of both congenital and hereditary conditions complied by LIDA.

Some of the conditions are listed as a result of a vet seeing a dog in their clinic that the owner says is that breed and reporting the condition for the database.

There is no indication in this list which are genetic and which are congenital as a result of (for example) one reporting.

I will give an example: The listing of Vaginal Hyperplasia for Pyrenean Mountain Dog was the result of a vet seeing a puppy of that breed with a mild case of this condition (which later corrected as the pup grew) and reporting it to the database.

I also find it interesting that they specifically list X-Linked PRA for the breed when there is currently no genetic data available on PRA on the Pyrenean, with the exception of a genetic marker for CMR.

so we don't even know if they are purebred and could infact have another breed in them only taking the word of the owner of the dog??????? if they were testing gene pools in registered chihuahuas with breeders i might be inclined to not question. looking up PRA the papillon can be affected with PRA as well as collies no mention of sheltie though, x-linked is only in the husky and bullmastiff.

[shortstep]

I have taken the list of disease from the Uni of Sydney LIDA, for the Chi.

http://sydney.edu.au...ed/44/Chihuahua

We should perhaps be clear that this is a list of both congenital and hereditary conditions complied by LIDA.

Some of the conditions are listed as a result of a vet seeing a dog in their clinic that the owner says is that breed and reporting the condition for the database.

There is no indication in this list which are genetic and which are congenital as a result of (for example) one reporting.

I will give an example: The listing of Vaginal Hyperplasia for Pyrenean Mountain Dog was the result of a vet seeing a puppy of that breed with a mild case of this condition (which later corrected as the pup grew) and reporting it to the database.

I also find it interesting that they specifically list X-Linked PRA for the breed when there is currently no genetic data available on PRA on the Pyrenean, with the exception of a genetic marker for CMR.

so we don't even know if they are purebred and could infact have another breed in them only taking the word of the owner of the dog??????? if they were testing gene pools in registered chihuahuas with breeders i might be inclined to not question. looking up PRA the papillon can be affected with PRA as well as collies no mention of sheltie though, x-linked is only in the husky and bullmastiff.

oh dear.

Look if you are sure that your breed does not have this

here is the link to check it again

http://sydney.edu.au/vetscience/lida/dogs/search/disorder/256/Progressive%20Retinal%20Atrophy%20(PRA)%20(X-linked)]

Then email them with your evidence and if you are right then they will remove it.

How about glacoma, do Chi not get that either?

There are several eye disorders listed for chi and in the US and the UK the parent clubs recommend eye certs yearly for breeding chi dogs. So they must think there is something there.

Edited July 10, 2011 by shortstep

[shortstep]

so we don't even know if they are purebred and could infact have another breed in them only taking the word of the owner of the dog??????? if they were testing gene pools in registered chihuahuas with breeders i might be inclined to not question. looking up PRA the papillon can be affected with PRA as well as collies no mention of sheltie though, x-linked is only in the husky and bullmastiff.

Yes but you have to test them first to find out and why I asked if any breeders are testing their dogs eyes?

[espinay2]

BTW congenital does not mean it is not also genetic. For example a cleft palalte is congenital and in breeds where is a common birth defect is thought to inherited (genetic). However it could be caused by chemials, drugs or other causes of disruption in developement which might explain a one off case where it is found a breed that is not known for this defect.

Yes, it could be, but it also doesn't meant that it is. The database is not very useful IMO as it provides no information on rate of occurrence and does not differentiate between occurrences that have been reported and information sourced elsewhere. There is no real way to differentiate between more frequently occurring conditions and one off occurrences. Frankly for my breed I don't give it much credence at all and rely on other sources for my information on genetic issues in my breed.

so we don't even know if they are purebred and could infact have another breed in them only taking the word of the owner of the dog???????

Pretty much. In the case of the Pyr it was purebred, but no clarification of the data took place before the information was contributed. The breed was as listed by the owner (or vet nurse) in the vets surgery records. No other data was collected before the information was submitted by the vet. Note that the information is also submitted without the knowledge of the owners.

Edited July 10, 2011 by espinay2

[Bullbreedlover]

Stonebridge is bullbreedlover and it was the things she said in her post about breeds not changing and breed type that made me laugh.

Here is a basset champ - Champion Xena bred by Mrs CC Ellis - same breed standard in the main as we have today.

Steve

Please do tell me when this picture was first brought out.

Was it only 30 years ago?

Because that is the time frame I was talking about.

This thread is going round and round in circles.

Dominated by one person who believes ANKC shouldnt exist because they disagree with how it is run and they think they can do better by having no standards at all.

And by one person who advocates that all pedigree purebred dogs are so unhealthy and there cant possibily be any that are healthy.

Why are they even on this forum?

Go figure.

[toy dog]

I have taken the list of disease from the Uni of Sydney LIDA, for the Chi.

http://sydney.edu.au...ed/44/Chihuahua

We should perhaps be clear that this is a list of both congenital and hereditary conditions complied by LIDA.

Some of the conditions are listed as a result of a vet seeing a dog in their clinic that the owner says is that breed and reporting the condition for the database.

There is no indication in this list which are genetic and which are congenital as a result of (for example) one reporting.

I will give an example: The listing of Vaginal Hyperplasia for Pyrenean Mountain Dog was the result of a vet seeing a puppy of that breed with a mild case of this condition (which later corrected as the pup grew) and reporting it to the database.

I also find it interesting that they specifically list X-Linked PRA for the breed when there is currently no genetic data available on PRA on the Pyrenean, with the exception of a genetic marker for CMR.

so we don't even know if they are purebred and could infact have another breed in them only taking the word of the owner of the dog??????? if they were testing gene pools in registered chihuahuas with breeders i might be inclined to not question. looking up PRA the papillon can be affected with PRA as well as collies no mention of sheltie though, x-linked is only in the husky and bullmastiff.

oh dear.

Look if you are sure that your breed does not have this

here is the link to check it again

http://sydney.edu.au/vetscience/lida/dogs/search/disorder/256/Progressive%20Retinal%20Atrophy%20(PRA)%20(X-linked)]

Then email them with your evidence and if you are right then they will remove it.

How about glacoma, do Chi not get that either?

There are several eye disorders listed for chi and in the US and the UK the parent clubs recommend eye certs yearly for breeding chi dogs. So they must think there is something there.

never seen that either here it could vary from country to country, the US club are also saying that SM is coming up in some of their show lines.

[Bullbreedlover]

Stonebridge is bullbreedlover and it was the things she said in her post about breeds not changing and breed type that made me laugh.

Here is a basset champ - Champion Xena bred by Mrs CC Ellis - same breed standard in the main as we have today.

Steve

Please do tell me when this picture was first brought out.

Was it only 30 years ago?

Because that is the time frame I was talking about.

This thread is going round and round in circles.

Dominated by one person who believes ANKC shouldnt exist because they disagree with how it is run and they think they can do better by having no standards at all.

And by one person who advocates that all pedigree purebred dogs are so unhealthy and there cant possibily be any that are healthy.

Why are they even on this forum?

Go figure.

I found reference to that picture as a Couteulx Hound and this is printed in reference to Le Couteulx kennels.

'English interest in the Basset Artésien Normand began in the 1870s, when two sportsmen, Lord Onslow and Mr. Everett Millais, began importing specimens of the breed from France. At that time there were two famous kennels of Bassets Artésien Normand in France: the kennel of the Count le Couteulx de Canteleu and the kennel of M. Louis Lane of Château de Frangueville near Rouen. Although both kennels specialized in Bassets Artésien Normand, over the years each developed a distinct type of the Artesian Basset. The "Lane type" hounds were in greater demand in France because they were considered to be the result of more consistent and purer breeding. The Lane dogs were predominantly lemon and white or gray and white. They were very heavy, with much bone and low to the ground. Their front legs were fully crooked ("jambes torses"). The Le Couteulx kennel, on the other hand, had at least two distinct types of hounds. One was an animal of larger build, heavier boned, low to the ground, with harsher coat that was either red and white or heavily marked tri-color. The other type, which most likely had an infusion of beagle in it, was much lighter in build, with coat short and fine of less well marked colors, either tri-color or very pale red and white. Their front legs were either full torse or demi-torse, and it could easily happen that one could find both types of front within the same litter. The Lane dogs, in spite of their purer quality, did not gain acceptance in England, and although a few were imported, they were simply cross-bred with the more popular Le Couteulx types."

And above where that picture was posted was the standard for

Couteulx Hounds. Part 3

General Appearance

1. The Head should be large, the skull narrow but of good length, the peak well-developed. The muzzle should be strong, and the jaws long and powerful ; a snipy muzzle and weakness of jaw are objectionable. The eyes should be dark and not prominent. The ears should be set on low, of good length and fine texture.

2. The Neck should be strong, of good length and muscular, set on sloping shoulders.

3. The Body should be massive, of good length, and well ribbed up, any weakness or slackness of loin being a bad fault. The chest should be large and very deep, the sternum prominent.

4. The Fore Legs should be short and very powerful, very heavy in bone, either half crooked or nearly straight. The elbows should lie against the side of the chest, and should not turn out.

5. Hindquarters should be powerful and muscular; the hind legs should be rather longer than the fore legs, and should be well bent at the stifles.

6. Stern. - Of moderate length and carried gaily ; should be set on high.

7. Coat. - An extremely important point. It should be profuse, thick and harsh to the touch, with a dense undercoat. The coat may be wavy.

8. Colour. - Any recognised hound colour.

9. Weight. - Dogs from 401b. to 5olb., bitches rather less.

The Rough Basset should appear a very powerful hound for his size, on short, strong legs. Body massive and good length, without slackness of loin. The feet should be thick, well padded, and not open. The expression should be kindly and intelligent. Any unsoundness should disqualify the hound.

Of recent years an emphatic stand has been made against unsoundness, and hounds that at one time would have won prizes on account of their beautiful type would now be sent out of the ring unnoticed. This is quite the right line to go upon, for the Basset is essentially a sporting hound, and every effort should be made to breed out unsound front legs or weak loins and quarters. Though many people keep Bassets simply for show purposes or as pets, there is no reason why the working properties should occupy a secondary position in the esteem of the breeder. Indeed, the writer would almost prefer seeing a sporting breed become extinct than suffer the degradation of being propagated simply for so-called "fancy" points. We should try for a well-balanced hound, beautiful in head, with the pathetic expression which is so much of his charm, short legs, with feet beyond reproach, well-sprung ribs, and deep chest. Why some people should wish for longer legs it is difficult to imagine. The Basset was never meant for speed, and, rather than take away one of his chief characteristics, those who want a faster pack should take up Beagles instead. The note of the little hound is deep and melodious.

So Steve(Julie) please when ever possible, post a picture in relavance to what is being talking about

Edited July 10, 2011 by Bullbreedlover

[toy dog]

so we don't even know if they are purebred and could infact have another breed in them only taking the word of the owner of the dog??????? if they were testing gene pools in registered chihuahuas with breeders i might be inclined to not question. looking up PRA the papillon can be affected with PRA as well as collies no mention of sheltie though, x-linked is only in the husky and bullmastiff.

Yes but you have to test them first to find out and why I asked if any breeders are testing their dogs eyes?

if no breeders are getting eye problems over here at least why would they be testing for eye problems. because the american club way over in US are finding SM problems now we should also be testing for this disease too?

if it aint broke why fix it? i know you probably won't believe me when i say that i've owned over 100 chihuahuas over many years and couple that with the bloodlines.dogs i've viewed over many years there's been very low cases of heart troubles and PRA or eye problems is very low indeed. i am in contact constantly with breeders all over OZ as i have many friends in different states. share bloodline information and health issues.

heart problems as i said, dogs can be affected with this, i have come across one line where the breeder had a dog infected at about 5-6 years of age, so immediately rang up all people that used this dog and informed them then got this dog de-sexed. this defect did get produced again later in the bloodline again so the bloodline was quickly dispelled with, all dogs desexed. and no, dogs were not tested because the problem didn't show up until the original dog was quite older.

my bloodline never had heart problems some of my bloodline have lived quite healthily until their late teens. imageine that and they are pedigree dogs omg.

of the over 100 dogs i've owned never come across this also looking at some of my breeder friends in different states -low incidence. my first cross bred dog nearly 30 years ago had a heart problem.

[shortstep]

I have taken the list of disease from the Uni of Sydney LIDA, for the Chi.

http://sydney.edu.au...ed/44/Chihuahua

We should perhaps be clear that this is a list of both congenital and hereditary conditions complied by LIDA.

Some of the conditions are listed as a result of a vet seeing a dog in their clinic that the owner says is that breed and reporting the condition for the database.

There is no indication in this list which are genetic and which are congenital as a result of (for example) one reporting.

I will give an example: The listing of Vaginal Hyperplasia for Pyrenean Mountain Dog was the result of a vet seeing a puppy of that breed with a mild case of this condition (which later corrected as the pup grew) and reporting it to the database.

I also find it interesting that they specifically list X-Linked PRA for the breed when there is currently no genetic data available on PRA on the Pyrenean, with the exception of a genetic marker for CMR.

so we don't even know if they are purebred and could infact have another breed in them only taking the word of the owner of the dog??????? if they were testing gene pools in registered chihuahuas with breeders i might be inclined to not question. looking up PRA the papillon can be affected with PRA as well as collies no mention of sheltie though, x-linked is only in the husky and bullmastiff.

oh dear.

Look if you are sure that your breed does not have this

here is the link to check it again

http://sydney.edu.au/vetscience/lida/dogs/search/disorder/256/Progressive%20Retinal%20Atrophy%20(PRA)%20(X-linked)]

Then email them with your evidence and if you are right then they will remove it.

How about glacoma, do Chi not get that either?

There are several eye disorders listed for chi and in the US and the UK the parent clubs recommend eye certs yearly for breeding chi dogs. So they must think there is something there.

never seen that either here it could vary from country to country, the US club are also saying that SM is coming up in some of their show lines.

Yes well it may be yet another case of a dog breed in Australia not haveing the diseaes normally found in the breed in the rest of the world.

So breeders are not doing any eye exams/certs because the chi have no known eye diseases in Australia? Biot putting words in yor mouth, just trying to sort it all out.