Pedigree Dog Segment On The 7pm Project

[toy dog]

If pedigree dogs were being bred for pets or to do what they were intended to do, as in working dogs, herding dogs etc and not being shown, there would not have been any need to change many of the breeds to conform to the show ring. I would much rather see some breeds as they were 30 or 40 years ago, as against some of the specimens of today.

Which breeds in your opinion have changed Marion1?

I have been showing dogs for 35 years and yes I could name one specific breed(that we used to own) that in my opinion has changed in size as such,ie, has gotten smaller in size over the years, but other than that breeds of 35 years ago look very much like the ones being bred today. There are still good and bad examples of every breed out there now, as there was 35 years ago. There are healthy dogs and unhealthy ones in every breed. And this has been the case for many years.

What does change are breeders views and how their interpretations of the standard are applied to the breeds they own. With these differing interpretations, comes differing types of the same breed. Good and bad. If these specimens are shown then it is also the judges interpretation of the standard which may mean that the dog gets awarded or not.

I was told many years ago that in each and every breed, you can just about bet good money on the fact that there are some superb examples of each breed sitting somewhere in a persons backyard, that does not get shown.

30 years ago alot of breeders then certainly did not breed just for the money. They bred for the love of the breed, to preserve breed type as close to the standard as possible and to show their stock off to the world.

Looking at photos of breeds of dogs 30 years ago or more every breed still had breed type then, as they do now. For without breed type you dont have a breed.

If pedigree dogs of today were solely bred just for pets then we would have no need to retain standards, as they would be totally unimportant. In my opinion that would be such a wrong thing to do.

Take the likes of the British Bulldog for example. If it wasnt for the advent of dog shows then the BB would of become virtually extinct when the barbaric sport of Bullbaiting became outlawed in 1835. And just for a little bit of history for those who are interested the oldest breed Club in the world is The Bulldog Club Inc.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

im not really getting the joke here??????????????? you must be having a good day steve lol

dont panic toy dog

its just that steve always thinks my posts are highly amusing.

Do I give a damn? nup.

It is quite funny actually

Do I ? Who are you? Cant say Ive ever noticed you much before - have I ? if so I dont remember you being so funny but surely you were joking???????????

is it possible to elaborate on this???? what parts did you find funny steve? the suspense is killing me here

[Steve]

If pedigree dogs were being bred for pets or to do what they were intended to do, as in working dogs, herding dogs etc and not being shown, there would not have been any need to change many of the breeds to conform to the show ring. I would much rather see some breeds as they were 30 or 40 years ago, as against some of the specimens of today.

Which breeds in your opinion have changed Marion1?

I have been showing dogs for 35 years and yes I could name one specific breed(that we used to own) that in my opinion has changed in size as such,ie, has gotten smaller in size over the years, but other than that breeds of 35 years ago look very much like the ones being bred today. There are still good and bad examples of every breed out there now, as there was 35 years ago. There are healthy dogs and unhealthy ones in every breed. And this has been the case for many years.

What does change are breeders views and how their interpretations of the standard are applied to the breeds they own. With these differing interpretations, comes differing types of the same breed. Good and bad. If these specimens are shown then it is also the judges interpretation of the standard which may mean that the dog gets awarded or not.

I was told many years ago that in each and every breed, you can just about bet good money on the fact that there are some superb examples of each breed sitting somewhere in a persons backyard, that does not get shown.

30 years ago alot of breeders then certainly did not breed just for the money. They bred for the love of the breed, to preserve breed type as close to the standard as possible and to show their stock off to the world.

Looking at photos of breeds of dogs 30 years ago or more every breed still had breed type then, as they do now. For without breed type you dont have a breed.

If pedigree dogs of today were solely bred just for pets then we would have no need to retain standards, as they would be totally unimportant. In my opinion that would be such a wrong thing to do.

Take the likes of the British Bulldog for example. If it wasnt for the advent of dog shows then the BB would of become virtually extinct when the barbaric sport of Bullbaiting became outlawed in 1835. And just for a little bit of history for those who are interested the oldest breed Club in the world is The Bulldog Club Inc.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

im not really getting the joke here??????????????? you must be having a good day steve lol

dont panic toy dog

its just that steve always thinks my posts are highly amusing.

Do I give a damn? nup.

It is quite funny actually

Do I ? Who are you? Cant say Ive ever noticed you much before - have I ? if so I dont remember you being so funny but surely you were joking???????????

is it possible to elaborate on this???? what parts did you find funny steve? the suspense is killing me here

Dont worry about it Toy dog I didnt realise that bullbreedlover was stonebridge or I wouldnt have answered.

I have no desire to fight and Im sure most people reading that post will see what I saw without me having to explain it.

[bryan_mannix]

Dont worry about it Toy dog I didnt realise that bullbreedlover was stonebridge or I wouldnt have answered.

I have no desire to fight and Im sure most people reading that post will see what I saw without me having to explain it.

Amen to that Steve...this thread has really moved on from the shrill postings of the Custodians of the Status Quo.

I may have missed details but are there still plans for MDBA show events? If so any more details on the format?

Had the document below PMed to me this week. I apologise if it has already been discussed at length here. Obviously people's perceptions will be influenced by the author. Are there any ideas of merit here applicable to the Aus scene?

(A quick reminder to viewers that the ideas below are not mine nor endorsed by me they are presented for discussion )

How do we mend the pedigree dog? Here is my 10-point guide:

1) REFORM THE KENNEL CLUB

Twenty years ago, zoos were too often little more than entertainment venues run by circus ringmasters. Today, the best ones are true conservation forces with a strong focus on welfare and the genetic management of wild species. Scientific evidence has become the bedrock for policy decisions. Call ZSL (the Zoological Society of London as London Zoo is now called) and you will be put through to experts who are passionate and knowledgeable about conservation and welfare.

Additionally, they wouldn’t dream of either playing down the seriousness of the genetic situation in some species; or try to convince you that keeping elephants in a small, barren enclosure is OK. They don’t need to, because the issues are being addressed.

This fundamental shift in focus is what is needed for purebred dogs, too and it hasn’t come yet because of the deeply-entrenched fear that fully embracing science means the end of the purebred dog or dog shows. In truth, it is the opposite: ignore the science and we will lose the breeds and dog shows will die out as they become increasingly frowned-upon and irrelevant.

As with London Zoo, things can’t go on exactly as they were - but they can go on. You can no longer see elephants at ZSL in London, for instance, because it was accepted that the enclosures were inappropriate. But we do still have zoos – and ones of which we can be much more proud.

We need a Kennel Club that sees this level reform as a truly exciting opportunity rather than as a threat. If this happens, so much else would fall into place.

2) INTRODUCE BREED CONSERVATION PLANS

The KC has introduced breed health plans but they’re nothing like enough. What we need are comprehensive Breed Conservation Plans (BCPs) for every breed. They need to include baseline measurements of genetic diversity for every breed, tailored guidance regarding popular sires and a coherent plan of action drawn up with the help of geneticists, epidemiologists and breeders.

The BCPs also need to set targets and incorporate ways of measuring progress.

A matter of some urgency is the genetic management of newly-registered breeds. This is currently often done in a very ad hoc way by breeders without sufficient knowledge – with a lot of inbreeding and the rapid spread of new diseases an inevitable result. There is then often a mad rush to try and get a DNA test. But the real answer lies in breeding the right way in the first place.

3) BIG UP THE BREED CLUBS

Breed clubs need to be bigger and better – to become all-singing, all-dancing guardians of their breeds with a very strong focus on the breed as a whole rather than a group of people with individual interests.

At present, breed clubs are too often dominated by show-breeders who look down on pet owners and are in competition with each other – bad news for transparency, team-spirit and, ultimately, the dogs. Pet owners and working owners need to be actively recruited and club literature and events need to be much less show-focused. Breed campaigners, very often acting outside of the breed clubs, need to be embraced as having a useful perspective rather than seen as the enemy.

Information inviting new owners to join the relevant breed club (or clubs) should be sent out with every KC registration, offering no-obligation, free, emailed breed newsletters for life even if owners do not want to become a formal member. This would instantly give breed clubs access to a huge number of pet and working owners who at present do not belong to a breed club and who never get to hear important breed news – such as a new DNA test or research appeals.

Breed newsletters should also offer very strong incentives to join breed clubs – perhaps discounted health insurance, dog food and other dog goodies, in the same way that many communities negotiate deals by offering business to a particular supplier.

It goes without saying, I hope, that breed clubs need to be at the absolute forefront of data gathering – encouraging the reporting of health problems, running properly designed health surveys and publishing open databases (both health and pedigree information) that are accessible to all. Some are already doing this. More need to join them.

4) BUILD BETTER BREED CLUB WEBSITES

Breed club websites clearly have the potential to be the perfect one-stop shop for everything anyone needs to know about an individual breed but currently range from pretty good to dire. Too few are works of art, design-wise – and too many are works of fiction, content-wise. This is because breed clubs are often run by people who have a vested interest in playing down health problems.

This has led to a proliferation of independent breed websites that often provide more comprehensive information, particularly regarding health, and they sometimes also often offer more in the way of breed databases. It is extremely confusing for anyone trying to get information on a breed.

The newly-launched Karlton Index (http://thekarltonindex.com/) seeks to redress this by highlighting the best and the worst UK breed club websites and encouraging breed clubs to do better.

There is a business opportunity here for dog-loving web designers who could design off-the-shelf website templates for breed clubs – allowing individuality but ensuring some standardisation on what information is provided, developed in collaboration with the Kennel Club and breed clubs keen to offer the very best service to their breed and owners.

5) PRACTICES MAKE PERFECT

Vets have a key role to play in educating the public in all aspects of pet dog ownership and need to step up to the mark. They are trusted as a source of independent advice but at present very often offer subjective, and sometimes just plain wrong, information on particular breeds.

The KC recently tried to address this with a breed manual for vets. Unfortunately, it was beyond dreadful in terms of useful health information. The BVA/BSAVA can and should do better by producing their own guide that can provide objective information for vets and their clients.

At the moment, very few people would think of asking a vet for advice on particular breeds but this clearly has the potential to change and in doing so to be a useful marketing tool for individual vets, via conventional literature, touch-screen terminals and open evenings.

Vets also need to embrace VEctAR (http://www.rvc.ac.uk/VEctAR/About.cfm) a new disease surveillance system developed by the Royal Veterinary College in association with the University of Sydney. It is already up and running in the UK, with more practices being recruited all the time.. The beauty of VEcTAR is that it will yield useful information about the prevalence/incidence of inherited disease in pet dogs (and cats ) with very little effort on the vets’ part thanks to clever software that will silently “mine” the data.

6) EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION

A schools education programme involving dogs would be of enormous benefit to both children – and dogs. The dog offers an engaging way to teach children many things – evolution, genetics, reproduction, evolution, ethics, citizenship and so on. The upshot would be a better-educated public able to make better dog-ownership choices. This is the sort of scheme that pet food manufacturers should be falling over themselves to sponsor.

7) RE-INVENT THE DOG SHOW

Ways must be found to reward health in the show-ring, rather than just the appearance of it. I would like to see a change to a points system where dogs arrive in the show-ring with a certain number of points already earned for meeting specific health criteria – such as long-lived parents/grand-parents, working qualifcations, taken/passed health tests and so on. This is easy enough to do in the electronic age in which we live.

There needs to be new functional tests introduced for non-working breeds, too – eg evidence that a bulldog is capable of covering a certain distance at a certain pace. None of the tests need to be mandatory and it doesn’t have to be that a dog that arrives in the ring with no points couldn’t win. But show breeders will often go to considerable lengths to give their dog the best possible chance of winning and if being provably healthier is a way, it should become a strong incentive.

8) BREED STANDARDS – PICTURE THIS

Pictures that illustrate breeds need to include not just how the show-dog looks now – but a historical picture of how the breed used to look (often so different) and, where appropriate, an example of the working side of the breed. This will help guard against exaggerations.

Breed standards also need to be rewritten to be much more focused on function rather than form. As Dan Belkin, evolutionary biologist and breeder of salukis, wrote about the saluki breed standard: “The standard says ‘eyes, dark to hazel and bright, large and oval, but not prominent.' It doesn't say anything about whether or not the Saluki can see” (http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/belkin.htm).

9) OUTCROSSING TASK FORCE

Outcrossing (to other breeds) was once part of the good dog breeder’s armoury and many early dog books talk openly about the practice. Today, the idea of outcrossing is met with abject horror by many, but it does offer a potential rescue route for many breeds which have bred themselves into a genetic cul-de-sac, such as the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. I propose an Outcrossing Task Force made up of experts (to include breeders) offering the very best advice to breeds who either want, or need, to consider it as an option.

10) PUPPY CONTRACTS

Every puppy should be sold with a puppy contract that makes demands on both breeders and buyers. New owners need to know that they are taking on a big commitment with responsiblities.

Dogs are not fridges so there can be no absolute guarantees, of course, but breeders need to be able to show that they have done everything possible to ensure that a puppy has every chance of a happy, healthy life.

Puppy contracts need to list breed specific issues, what tests are available/appropriate, whether they have been done and if not why not (there can be very good reasons why not). Formalising this for every breed would take the embarrassment away from puppy-buyers who often find it awkward to ask about health.

If a dog then falls sick or dies from a breed specific health problem that could reasonably have been prevented, breeders should be liable, not just to take back a dog if required, but to assist with veterinary fees up to the purchase price of the dog.

[Steve]

Bryan asked

I may have missed details but are there still plans for MDBA show events? If so any more details on the format?

The MDBA has no breed standards and even though I know that when I say this people just cant imagine a system which may be different we will not be running conformation shows - we will never judge a dog on how it looks - though we will be awarding championships. There is much more I could say on this but Im reluctant to go further here as I will be accused of using this forum to promote the MDBA. Even though the entire thread is taken up with discussing another registry . If conformation showing is part of what someone wants to do then they do that via their own breed clubs or groups or the ANKC - we add these qualifications to their pedigrees but we are not involved in judging a dog or awarding them in a traditional sense.

We do have certain criteria on registering a pup which is more difficult than the ANKC in most ways - DNA for parentage and mandatory testing - but we will also allow some dogs to be used for breeding which the ANKC dont allow - for example white boxers can be used to breed with but there is restriction on what they can be bred with so no white boxers are ever bred.Some health tests are mandatory as well depending on which breed you are talking about.

We also open the stud books but in order for that to happen we have to see why any dog is being selected for entry and it has to be way more than how the dog looks.

We have to see the mechanics of how the breeding program will proceed and what the goals are etc. Puppies are registered on the foundation registry until F4.

Every step of the way health, temperament and what will do no harm is the priority.

Our recording system is different in that things as well as whether the dog is a conformation champ is recorded on the pedigree which everyone can see for when they select their mates. If one dog in the pedigree was a police dog or search and rescue , If one was itchy or had a crook immune system etc is recorded to enable people to REALLY know whats in the lines. This is infor which traditionally has been not available or reliant on someome's memory or gossip.To date the only certain info available via the stud system is where the champs are.

Our breeders are adding this in now along with test and score results etc but we are aware that we need lots more info from pet owners/ rescue people etc who own purebred dogs to be able to build this info so everyone can use it when they are estimating their breeding values for a dog. So we encourage anyone who owns a limited register dog or rescue who have papered dogs come through to provide us with this info so we can add it into the system for it to be included and utilised as well. This is cost free and anyone can send the info to us whether they are members or not.

Hope this answered your question.

Edited July 9, 2011 by Steve

[shortstep]

I think it is an excellent subject, however as it relates to PDE 10 point plan for kennel clubs as was posted above....

Ask me it seems like a whole lot of effort. To save?? a system of dog breeding that may be coming to the end of it's use by date. It also is a system being used by very few dogs breeders in the world today, even most breeds are not being bred in this system any longer (we have all see the numbers, the decline is well documented in most countries). There also would appear to be little desire to make any changes in that system by it's members. You can offer endless examples of how to change but if there is no desire to change then it really is a wasted exercise. I really think it is way too much effort for the amount of effect that might be gained.

However building a new organized system of dog breeding, one that would encompass most of the dog breeding going on today, including the established dog breeds, the working dogs, new dog breeds, cross or true mix breeds. This would be a really worth while effort, as the effect would be far reaching across the vast majority of dogs being bred and owned by the public.

I think it will come down to this sort of across all dogs type of planning in the end, as any laws made will be directed at everyone and apply to all dogs being bred. To me good practice is good practice and all dogs and owners deserve that level of care. I would rather spend time building good practice sytems for all dogs.

As to dogs shows, they are becoming a thing of the past and it is time to move on. I do not think anything needs to be done with them, the attendence numbers keeps droping and pretty soon they will just fade away.

However the modern 'dogs shows' are the ever increasing list of dog activites, sports and events with dogs are booming!! They just don't seem to stop growing in attendence numbers!!

They provide good exercise, companionship, socilization, training and handling skills and most important heaps of fun for both dogs and their owners. What better way to show off our breeds and dogs to the public! I think all efforts should be made to support and expand these types of dog events and they should be strongly supported not only by the breeders but also by the governments.

Edited July 9, 2011 by shortstep

[Steve]

So lets take these 10 points apart one at a time then.

1) REFORM THE KENNEL CLUB

Twenty years ago, zoos were too often little more than entertainment venues run by circus ringmasters. Today, the best ones are true conservation forces with a strong focus on welfare and the genetic management of wild species. Scientific evidence has become the bedrock for policy decisions. Call ZSL (the Zoological Society of London as London Zoo is now called) and you will be put through to experts who are passionate and knowledgeable about conservation and welfare.

Additionally, they wouldn’t dream of either playing down the seriousness of the genetic situation in some species; or try to convince you that keeping elephants in a small, barren enclosure is OK. They don’t need to, because the issues are being addressed.

This fundamental shift in focus is what is needed for purebred dogs, too and it hasn’t come yet because of the deeply-entrenched fear that fully embracing science means the end of the purebred dog or dog shows. In truth, it is the opposite: ignore the science and we will lose the breeds and dog shows will die out as they become increasingly frowned-upon and irrelevant.

As with London Zoo, things can’t go on exactly as they were - but they can go on. You can no longer see elephants at ZSL in London, for instance, because it was accepted that the enclosures were inappropriate. But we do still have zoos – and ones of which we can be much more proud.

We need a Kennel Club that sees this level reform as a truly exciting opportunity rather than as a threat. If this happens, so much else would fall into place.

Not that simple-

When things such as size and type of enclosures etc were being studied and they came to decisions to ensure some practices were no longer being carried out these were done with the species requirements in mind by the peopel who knew and lived with the species as breeding animals - type of enclosures and how they would approach certain genetic issues etc were left to them to assess and divise plans for their own challenges . I can go to a zoo and listen or learn about a specific life cycle of a particular species but all I see is pressure on dog people to conform to humanisation of the species we work with and mandatory codes etc which place our animals in enclosures and on surfaces no zoo animal would ever be expected to live in. I can just see them bringing in laws to make em keep dingoes on non pourous surfaces or whether they should breed according to some human idea of how often and how long the species should breed. Do we go into a zoo and tell them by law when they can breed their animals or how far unrelated they must be? Do we provide them with instructions on how they should feed their babies in separate bowls or miriad of other things? Its not all one sided. Purebred dog breeders are embracing science much of which is still now being devloped and which we havent had that long to play with but there are many issues wrapped up here. vets with their own agendas for making more money and animal rights who believe they know more about breeding dogs than dog breeders . So the idea is good and I go with it but tehre are a whole lot of other considerations and things in play including politics and money and things completely unrelated to what is best for the dogs.

[Steve]

2) INTRODUCE BREED CONSERVATION PLANS

The KC has introduced breed health plans but they’re nothing like enough. What we need are comprehensive Breed Conservation Plans (BCPs) for every breed. They need to include baseline measurements of genetic diversity for every breed, tailored guidance regarding popular sires and a coherent plan of action drawn up with the help of geneticists, epidemiologists and breeders.

The BCPs also need to set targets and incorporate ways of measuring progress.

A matter of some urgency is the genetic management of newly-registered breeds. This is currently often done in a very ad hoc way by breeders without sufficient knowledge – with a lot of inbreeding and the rapid spread of new diseases an inevitable result. There is then often a mad rush to try and get a DNA test. But the real answer lies in breeding the right way in the first place.

I agree with this one but thats beginning to happen now and will gather some momentum at least in the near future. There are some breeders who are still in denial and who still see the only criteria as breeding to a breed standard but within the culture I have no doubt that this will progress quickly if we give them enoug room and encouragement to divise the best plans for their breeds - even if that means more in breeding rather than less.

I especially agree that the real answer lies in breeding right in the first place and this is why we have our registry set up to have breeds in develpment included [ not on the main stud registry] so we can offer resources to ensure the health is taken into account way before it gets to a formal application for breed recognition.

[Steve]

3) BIG UP THE BREED CLUBS

Breed clubs need to be bigger and better – to become all-singing, all-dancing guardians of their breeds with a very strong focus on the breed as a whole rather than a group of people with individual interests.

At present, breed clubs are too often dominated by show-breeders who look down on pet owners and are in competition with each other – bad news for transparency, team-spirit and, ultimately, the dogs. Pet owners and working owners need to be actively recruited and club literature and events need to be much less show-focused. Breed campaigners, very often acting outside of the breed clubs, need to be embraced as having a useful perspective rather than seen as the enemy.

Information inviting new owners to join the relevant breed club (or clubs) should be sent out with every KC registration, offering no-obligation, free, emailed breed newsletters for life even if owners do not want to become a formal member. This would instantly give breed clubs access to a huge number of pet and working owners who at present do not belong to a breed club and who never get to hear important breed news – such as a new DNA test or research appeals.

Breed newsletters should also offer very strong incentives to join breed clubs – perhaps discounted health insurance, dog food and other dog goodies, in the same way that many communities negotiate deals by offering business to a particular supplier.

It goes without saying, I hope, that breed clubs need to be at the absolute forefront of data gathering – encouraging the reporting of health problems, running properly designed health surveys and publishing open databases (both health and pedigree information) that are accessible to all. Some are already doing this. More need to join them.

You are going to have a hard time pushing this one for me - I think its right but there isnt a chance Id be joining one - once or twice bitten etc.

[Steve]

5) PRACTICES MAKE PERFECT

Vets have a key role to play in educating the public in all aspects of pet dog ownership and need to step up to the mark. They are trusted as a source of independent advice but at present very often offer subjective, and sometimes just plain wrong, information on particular breeds.

The KC recently tried to address this with a breed manual for vets. Unfortunately, it was beyond dreadful in terms of useful health information. The BVA/BSAVA can and should do better by producing their own guide that can provide objective information for vets and their clients.

At the moment, very few people would think of asking a vet for advice on particular breeds but this clearly has the potential to change and in doing so to be a useful marketing tool for individual vets, via conventional literature, touch-screen terminals and open evenings.

Vets also need to embrace VEctAR (http://www.rvc.ac.uk/VEctAR/About.cfm) a new disease surveillance system developed by the Royal Veterinary College in association with the University of Sydney. It is already up and running in the UK, with more practices being recruited all the time.. The beauty of VEcTAR is that it will yield useful information about the prevalence/incidence of inherited disease in pet dogs (and cats ) with very little effort on the vets’ part thanks to clever software that will silently “mine” the data.

Nup until this is amended to enable an ability to determine whether what a vet is seeing as a purebred and who is breeding them this system cannot and will not benefit us as purebred breeders - if anything it will hinder us and give us false information - and make us take the blame for things we are not responsible for or let us off the hook we should be held responsible for .

There is a major fault in this method of data collection especially when purebred breeders only breed approx 10% of all puppies bred in this country.

The most efficient method of collecting this kind of data and having it apply to only purebred breeders is the MDBA method of placing this on the pedigree system and using that as a way of determining what is or is not a problem and prevalence in any purebred breed.

[Steve]

6) EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION

A schools education programme involving dogs would be of enormous benefit to both children – and dogs. The dog offers an engaging way to teach children many things – evolution, genetics, reproduction, evolution, ethics, citizenship and so on. The upshot would be a better-educated public able to make better dog-ownership choices. This is the sort of scheme that pet food manufacturers should be falling over themselves to sponsor.

Yep we're onto it.

Edited July 9, 2011 by Steve

[Steve]

7) RE-INVENT THE DOG SHOW

Ways must be found to reward health in the show-ring, rather than just the appearance of it. I would like to see a change to a points system where dogs arrive in the show-ring with a certain number of points already earned for meeting specific health criteria – such as long-lived parents/grand-parents, working qualifcations, taken/passed health tests and so on. This is easy enough to do in the electronic age in which we live.

There needs to be new functional tests introduced for non-working breeds, too – eg evidence that a bulldog is capable of covering a certain distance at a certain pace. None of the tests need to be mandatory and it doesn’t have to be that a dog that arrives in the ring with no points couldn’t win. But show breeders will often go to considerable lengths to give their dog the best possible chance of winning and if being provably healthier is a way, it should become a strong incentive.

Nup - dog shows are for judging nothing more than how a dog shapes up according to a breed standard. Full stop. If you want other tests to be included prior to a dog which does well in the ring being used for breeding thats a separate issue. The KC should be telling them all to bugger off and that they use dogs shows for this purpose only. If they are going to get involved in only allowing people to breed healthy dogs whcih can fit certain criteria per breed then the dog show isnt the venue for judging that. Its about educating breeders on what else OTHER THAN spotting for champions is needed in selecting which dog to use for breeding.

Accept dog shows for what they are not for what some animal rights think they should be.

[Steve]

8) BREED STANDARDS – PICTURE THIS

Pictures that illustrate breeds need to include not just how the show-dog looks now – but a historical picture of how the breed used to look (often so different) and, where appropriate, an example of the working side of the breed. This will help guard against exaggerations.

Breed standards also need to be rewritten to be much more focused on function rather than form. As Dan Belkin, evolutionary biologist and breeder of salukis, wrote about the saluki breed standard: "The standard says 'eyes, dark to hazel and bright, large and oval, but not prominent.' It doesn't say anything about whether or not the Saluki can see" (http://saluqi.home.n....com/belkin.htm).

Nup breed standards need to be re written to be more specific to leave less open to interpretation - this is the main thing which will eliminate exaggerations.

Edited July 9, 2011 by Steve

[Steve]

9) OUTCROSSING TASK FORCE

Outcrossing (to other breeds) was once part of the good dog breeder’s armoury and many early dog books talk openly about the practice. Today, the idea of outcrossing is met with abject horror by many, but it does offer a potential rescue route for many breeds which have bred themselves into a genetic cul-de-sac, such as the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel. I propose an Outcrossing Task Force made up of experts (to include breeders) offering the very best advice to breeds who either want, or need, to consider it as an option.

I cant see any harm in this as long as any suggestions are just that and are not bought in as laws.

[Steve]

10) PUPPY CONTRACTS

Every puppy should be sold with a puppy contract that makes demands on both breeders and buyers. New owners need to know that they are taking on a big commitment with responsiblities.

Dogs are not fridges so there can be no absolute guarantees, of course, but breeders need to be able to show that they have done everything possible to ensure that a puppy has every chance of a happy, healthy life.

Puppy contracts need to list breed specific issues, what tests are available/appropriate, whether they have been done and if not why not (there can be very good reasons why not). Formalising this for every breed would take the embarrassment away from puppy-buyers who often find it awkward to ask about health.

If a dog then falls sick or dies from a breed specific health problem that could reasonably have been prevented, breeders should be liable, not just to take back a dog if required, but to assist with veterinary fees up to the purchase price of the dog.

Nup - this is way over simplifying the issues. There are so many things which are variable. I agree that puppy contracts have sadly become a necessity of life but there are many other things which need to be included and its not something that can be or will be able to be formalised per breed.

[Steve]

I left the breed club websites to last - problem is who controls the breed club and what belief systems do they have in place dinosaurs and power hungry ignorant egotists abound.

[toy dog]

omg, this thread has really deviated from the original statement. am i to understand that MDBA has sights to be a registry for dogs to rival ANKC registry? and you will take developing breeds? what sort of developing breeds?

im reading all comments, but i'd have to disagree with this comment

As to dogs shows, they are becoming a thing of the past and it is time to move on. I do not think anything needs to be done with them, the attendence numbers keeps droping and pretty soon they will just fade away.

if you don't have some sort of guide with breeds how will we know what to measure up with? if we end dog shows we end the pedigree dog simple as that. i don't think dog shows will ever fade away somehow sorry to disappoint you all.

Nup - dog shows are for judging nothing more than how a dog shapes up according to a breed standard. Full stop

so have you ever shown dogs?? i've been showing dogs since 1986 and have seen my fair share of good and bad its like anything in life there are good and there are bad, i've seen dogs thrown out of the ring because of lameness or suffering from genetic conditions, it does happen, you have to remember that like breeders with different ethics and beliefs so too are judges. Some judges judge for soundness and overall health others may not. you get a feel for what judges prefer what, some judges may like a certain type within a breed and go with that there are many variables inbetween. but to say a blanket statement that dogs shows are only there for appearance only and forget everything else is not really fair. we hold up dogs to the standard for appearance AS WELL AS health and ability to reproduce and there are alot of other breeders who do the same thing.

if you don't hold up dogs to a breed standard how do you conform a certain breed of dog, if anything goes and there are no dog shows? then you don't have the pedigree dog, its the end..........i don't understand the reasoning behind all of this at all.

i mean i agree with some sort of points system or even vetting dogs before they go into the ring to ascertain that they are a healthy specimen before they compete i wouldn't mind betting that some dogs would fall short. Im all for that dealing with my issue that i've talked about on here.

but the rest of it, im just like

in answer to all this

Breed clubs need to be bigger and better – to become all-singing, all-dancing guardians of their breeds with a very strong focus on the breed as a whole rather than a group of people with individual interests.

At present, breed clubs are too often dominated by show-breeders who look down on pet owners and are in competition with each other – bad news for transparency, team-spirit and, ultimately, the dogs. Pet owners and working owners need to be actively recruited and club literature and events need to be much less show-focused. Breed campaigners, very often acting outside of the breed clubs, need to be embraced as having a useful perspective rather than seen as the enemy.

Information inviting new owners to join the relevant breed club (or clubs) should be sent out with every KC registration, offering no-obligation, free, emailed breed newsletters for life even if owners do not want to become a formal member. This would instantly give breed clubs access to a huge number of pet and working owners who at present do not belong to a breed club and who never get to hear important breed news – such as a new DNA test or research appeals.

Breed newsletters should also offer very strong incentives to join breed clubs – perhaps discounted health insurance, dog food and other dog goodies, in the same way that many communities negotiate deals by offering business to a particular supplier.

It goes without saying, I hope, that breed clubs need to be at the absolute forefront of data gathering – encouraging the reporting of health problems, running properly designed health surveys and publishing open databases (both health and pedigree information) that are accessible to all. Some are already doing this. More need to join them.

all breed clubs and kennel clubs are different, just because some of you have had a nasty experience with some doesn't mean they are all evil.

as i've said before many times our breed club do all those things listed and more. We scout for pet owners and invite them to join our club and they do, we have days for gatherings where breeders answer all questions related to our breed, we have classes in a breed competition where the pet owner even with a desexed dog can show their dog and get a prize for which some of them are over the moon. it gives them great encouragment. and it is good PR for our breed and the evidence is in our members which is booming and numbers are getting bigger and bigger. We talk to our new breeders and help the oldies help them alot. website: we have all relevant info on our breed.

we are not the only club. All-breed clubs i've been involved in a few of those and not all are evil, sat on committees, president, assistant secretary, one i singled handedly saved from closing down about 16 years ago all the older people left for other committments as it was just a given they will always run the clubs so i brought in a heap of new people and today this club is going very strong and is still there. i've spoken and associated with breeders of many breeds, Borzois, staffies, italian greyhound, akitas, german sheps to name a few.

So we encourage anyone who owns a limited register dog or rescue who have papered dogs come through to provide us with this info so we can add it into the system for it to be included and utilised as well.

limit registered dogs utitlised for what? there is a reason why a dog is put onto limit register, mainly because the dog is not a good example or the breeder doesn't want the dog to be used in the gene pool, thats the breeders protection, this is why the ANKC brought it in, in the first place. thats why i desex mine! because it can't be used to be shown or bred doesn't stop it being used outside the system thats why i desex my limits as well.

i don't know this has really deviated from the original statement and im really surprised at some comments . i believe myself the current system works just fine it has been working just fine for hundreds of years, its up to the individual, there's different views, different attitudes, different ethics and thats how human nature is.

Edited July 9, 2011 by toy dog

[Steve]

Toy dog the MDBA already has its own registry and Im not sure which part of it you dont agree with regarding devolping breeds but there is nothing different in what we do than the ANKC does as far as what goes on the stud registry or breed acceptance.

The only difference in devoloping breeds is that the ANKC have criteria on what they need to have happen before a breed is recognised - so do we which is almost the same but the ANKC dont get anywhere near any involvement in that until that criteria is met so they have no idea of issues which may be in the breed .by then there may be numerous issues which can impact negatively on health and the conformation standard may be causing some health issues too.

So we have a special registry which enables people who are working toward breed recognition to be able to use so they are able to use our resources and tools and we are able to see along the way if there may be a problem before it becomes a problem.

What sort of developing breeds? Any sort as long as they are devolping a breed and they have set goals and an end objective of fitting the same criteria all devoloping breeds have to have with the ANKC - and a couple more for us - before its seen or recognised as a breed.

If you accept thats ometimes the ANKC accept new breeds why is it such a terrible thing if we do ? Why is it so terrible if we get involved sooner to help prevent the mistakes made in breed devolpment in the past? Its not ike as if we are anywhere near crossbreds!

Please be careful to attribute the quotes to the right people.

[toy dog]

steve i styled my post like that because i was talking to you all.

i was unaware that MDBA attributed the same recognised system as ANKC to developing breeds. that has answered my question thank you. and no i don't have a problem with it at all. i recently was looking at how they develop a new breed for a freind that has a developing breed herself in Australia here.

ANKC do let the developing breed clubs work it out themselves and yes i agree there could be health issues come up and it would be nice if ANKC had a more hands on approach to help them out.

[Steve]

Nup - dog shows are for judging nothing more than how a dog shapes up according to a breed standard. Full stop

I said this so I will answer it.

I have bred my share of champions too and if a dog is not placed because it is lame or unsound then its not fitting the breed standard and it will be or should be judged accordingly and not given an award - it is in fact being judged on the breed standard . My point is that its not possible for a conformation judge to judge a dog based on its health and things they cannot see. Firstly judges are not vets, secondly many - most things that may be wrong withthe dog are not able to be seen and thirdly because if we are to judge on healthy and assume a dog being awarded as healthy may not be healthy in a month or two etc.

When you select a mate you are mindful of many other things - I hope - other than how well the dog did in the ring and the things you are mindful of are things which in my opinion are not things which need to be or can be judged in a conformation show ring. If you want ratings, scores or results on anything else you go to judges who are qualified to judge that. Experts in their field and vets etc .You cannot rely on the show ring doing that for you so when I said that the conformation show should in my opinion only have to do judge conformation.

Its unfortuneate that this wasnt soemthing which was explained via PDE so that people could see that a show ring is only part of it all and not all of it or capable of judging health or anything else which they can see on the day.

Edited July 9, 2011 by Steve

[Steve]

So we encourage anyone who owns a limited register dog or rescue who have papered dogs come through to provide us with this info so we can add it into the system for it to be included and utilised as well.

limit registered dogs utitlised for what? there is a reason why a dog is put onto limit register, mainly because the dog is not a good example or the breeder doesn't want the dog to be used in the gene pool, thats the breeders protection, this is why the ANKC brought it in, in the first place. thats why i desex mine! because it can't be used to be shown or bred doesn't stop it being used outside the system thats why i desex my limits as well.

i don't know this has really deviated from the original statement and im really surprised at some comments . i believe myself the current system works just fine it has been working just fine for hundreds of years, its up to the individual, there's different views, different attitudes, different ethics and thats how human nature is.

We take health , work and temperament issues and add them into our pedigree system so that when someone looks at a pedigree if a dog has been - say a limited register dog but also had servere allergies that this is noted for everyone to see when they are looking at that pedigree.

Now before you jump all over me - everything has to be documented ,nothing is upgraded , no limited register dog is used for breeding all we do is use the info to increase the knowledge of the bloodlines for everyone who wants to use that sort of info to breed their dogs. It means that you could add dogs patella scores - and so could one of the people who own one of your limit register pets.

From our website.

Why the pedigree system is so important

Being able to categorically state the ancestry of any dog is still the best tool any breeder has for selecting the best and healthiest dogs to use for breeding and to make informed decisions and determine risk factors for the potential offspring.

The Master Dog Breeders and Associates believed the pedigree system could be further enhanced as a selection tool for breeding purposes so we developed a pedigree system which records all the pedigree information as well as health, temperament, conformation and all dog obedience and sporting achievements such as agility, trialling, schutzhund etc.

Anyone who has a purebred with a registered pedigree with any registry we recognise whether that be limited or main register papers is able to enter their animal’s details with us with the appropriate documentation.

This means pet owners with limited registered dogs, rescues who accept dogs with registered pedigrees and purebred dog breeders are able to provide this information and for it to be entered onto our database which will then enable the information to be used when breeders are proofing their pedigrees.

There is no cost for entering this information with us and it is not necessary for anyone to be a member of the MDBA to do so. This as an opportunity for us to gather information which breeders are reluctant to share or don’t know. If we only gather information from our members when our members add this information as part of the stud pedigree registration process then there will inevitably be gaps a mile wide in the information we collect.

What we are aiming for is as much verified information pertinent to the whole dog being accessible and visible to our breeder members in their pedigrees to better enable them to estimate breeding values in the dogs they are selecting for breeding.

Hopefully, in the not too distant future our breeder members will be able to access this information on one piece of paper, the dog’s pedigree, knowing it is accurate and breed consistently better dogs with science and not just luck.

It is important to note that providing this information into our pedigrees does not register the dog nor give the owner or their dog any benefit. We are undertaking this initiative for the greater good of the breeds in the hope that we can play a small part in helping breeds to move forward.