Pedigree Dog Segment On The 7pm Project

[sandgrubber]

Bryann a purebred animal with an open stud book means "not purebred".

In the meantime, I note Howard gets cold in winter. Clearly his lack of body fat is a breed related health issue that needs be fixed by outcrossing. Shall we outcross to a Labrador or introduce the coat of Alaskan Malamute to resolve this? The first example will introduce PRA to Whippets. The second will intoduce Spitz temperament. Who deals withe culls? What will people who just wanted a Whippet do with an animal that might bear a passing physical resemblence but has none of the temperament attibutes of one?

The longest running, most public attempt to incorporate the desireable attribute of one breed into another breed is the Labradoodle. Wally Conron wrote it off as an abject failure. That much desired poodle coat coudl not be reliably added to Labrador temperament. Some of the first 'exports' of the breed went blind from PRA.

And the much vaunted solution of outcrossing? To how many dogs? If its only a handful and the offspring are linebred to stablise the attribute, how is that expanding the gene pool. We'd be better off putting our hopes into gene splicing.

Outcrossing and backcrossing was essential to the development of many modern breeds. In the Dalmation case, they went 14 generations before gaining acceptance back into the pedigree. The labradoodle is not an outcross/backcross. It's an attempt to design an new breed with intermediate features. As such, it probably fits in the same category as the Rat Terrier (which is a bit older as a 'breed'). Not to mention the landrace from which the Fila Brasiliero was derived, which came from mixing the mastiff type of the day with the anticedent of the bloodhound. If my memory serves, this happened in the 17th century.

Ok, if someone chooses to outcross and backcross to eliminate some breed problem, eg, develop a Lab less prone to obesity, they should face a very high standard to re-enter the pedigree system, and it may take many generations to get there. But if they succeed, I'd say they deserve hearty praise. I don't see why some people find a need to jump on the idea. . . especially given how happy some people are to jump on Lab owners for having fat dogs. It would take a long time and careful breeding, but I think those who select Labs for modern work (eg, guide dogs, sniffer dogs, bomb dogs, therapy dogs) would be happier with a dog who needed less care with respect to diet, and who was less subject to heat stress. Not to mention families who want a dog as a pet and would be happy with a little less shedding.

You are correct. The effort might fail. If the genes that make Labs prone to getting fat are directly linked to the temperament traits that make the Lab so successful, it will fail. You're also correct, gene splicing might be a quicker way to achieve the same end . . . someday. I expect the pedigree world will have a good long debate about gene splicing and studbooks . . . in a decade or two.

You're being silly re coat and temperature. Australia isn't cold. Say you moved to Newfoundland or colder parts of Siberia. Say you wanted to do some winter sports. You'd either be changing breeds, or thinking it would be nice if Howard had a thicker coat. Reworking livestock to suit new environments is old hat. Why should it not be done for dogs?

Swimming in cold water -- an important part of the life of the land race from which Labs is the extreme of metabolic challenge cause water has a huge ability to draw out heat. (Not the place to do the physics on this . . . if you don't believe me, ask a physicist, or time how long it takes a hard boiled egg to cool in air vs immersed in ice water, or remember that 'blubber' is almost synonymous with marine mammals). The features that suit a Lab to this become a problem in other climes.

Breeding for a thin-coat lab seems to be happening anyway, without outcrossing. The Lab genome contains a fair amount of hound, and 'poor' coats are pretty common. Guidedogs and the police squad generally prefer Labs with 'poor' coats, and the Lab x kelpie was high on the preference list for tracking dogs for the Australian armed forces in Vietnam. Labs couldn't take the heat. If you don't believe there's hound in Labs, here's a shot of the first recognized yellow Lab, Ben of Hyde, taken in 1899. The genes that produced that head went with single coat . . . and those genes are still pretty abundant in the Lab gene pool. They just aren't popular in the show ring . . . and anyone who deliberately bred for them would be attacked for breeding away from the breed standard.

Edited July 7, 2011 by sandgrubber

[toy dog]

If pedigree dogs were being bred for pets or to do what they were intended to do, as in working dogs, herding dogs etc and not being shown, there would not have been any need to change many of the breeds to conform to the show ring. I would much rather see some breeds as they were 30 or 40 years ago, as against some of the specimens of today.

but what about the breeds that weren't specifically developed to be working dogs? what then? as steve said bet me to it. 30-40-50 years ago, (my family was there), dogs were being bred and judged exactly the same way with the same breed standards, some haven't been changed for a hundred years.

no one has mentioned the fact, sharing some of this is also the judges who have the power to shape or break a breed simply by their choices in the ring too.

not to say there aren't some pretty good judges out there and there are! but some i've seen over many years would award some competitors even if they brought in a 3 legged cat into the dog showing ring. some comments outside have been: how many judges are in the ring showing atm, 3, well we know who is going to get it and sure enough. sad fact.

the reason for this, as was explained to me by an inspiring judge for another group to become all breed status, some don't know their standards well enough and take the easy way out by looking at the other end rather than the dog.

this all can have potential to shape what the competitors bring into the ring and it has an effect in what is bred and what is not.

[toy dog]

So you would modify the Lab to suit lazy owners.

I don't know what you guys on on about. Breeds are constantly being modified, as long as you can still make out the breed, what is the problem?

Here is an example of modified breed I saw this morning.LOL

http://www.ibelieveinadv.com/2009/06/lifebuoy-handwash-dog/

http://terriermandotcom.blogspot.com/2011/07/pug-loaf.html

Forget that, I would like you to respond to my previous posts regarding bringing in heritable diseases if stud books are opened. Why won't you respond to it?

that image has been altered you can tell becuase the front forelegs disappear and you can see extra lines been added on its back as well. I've been mucking around with images and photos for about 15 years now. if that dog was to stand up because the forelegs are so close to the back legs it wouldn't be balanced at all no dog could ever be built like that. The face looks like its been ramped up as well to me.

they've altered the image to advertise whatever they're advertising

Edited July 8, 2011 by toy dog

[Bullbreedlover]

If pedigree dogs were being bred for pets or to do what they were intended to do, as in working dogs, herding dogs etc and not being shown, there would not have been any need to change many of the breeds to conform to the show ring. I would much rather see some breeds as they were 30 or 40 years ago, as against some of the specimens of today.

Which breeds in your opinion have changed Marion1?

I have been showing dogs for 35 years and yes I could name one specific breed(that we used to own) that in my opinion has changed in size as such,ie, has gotten smaller in size over the years, but other than that breeds of 35 years ago look very much like the ones being bred today. There are still good and bad examples of every breed out there now, as there was 35 years ago. There are healthy dogs and unhealthy ones in every breed. And this has been the case for many years.

What does change are breeders views and how their interpretations of the standard are applied to the breeds they own. With these differing interpretations, comes differing types of the same breed. Good and bad. If these specimens are shown then it is also the judges interpretation of the standard which may mean that the dog gets awarded or not.

I was told many years ago that in each and every breed, you can just about bet good money on the fact that there are some superb examples of each breed sitting somewhere in a persons backyard, that does not get shown.

30 years ago alot of breeders then certainly did not breed just for the money. They bred for the love of the breed, to preserve breed type as close to the standard as possible and to show their stock off to the world.

Looking at photos of breeds of dogs 30 years ago or more every breed still had breed type then, as they do now. For without breed type you dont have a breed.

If pedigree dogs of today were solely bred just for pets then we would have no need to retain standards, as they would be totally unimportant. In my opinion that would be such a wrong thing to do.

Take the likes of the British Bulldog for example. If it wasnt for the advent of dog shows then the BB would of become virtually extinct when the barbaric sport of Bullbaiting became outlawed in 1835. And just for a little bit of history for those who are interested the oldest breed Club in the world is The Bulldog Club Inc.

[toy dog]

If pedigree dogs were being bred for pets or to do what they were intended to do, as in working dogs, herding dogs etc and not being shown, there would not have been any need to change many of the breeds to conform to the show ring. I would much rather see some breeds as they were 30 or 40 years ago, as against some of the specimens of today.

Which breeds in your opinion have changed Marion1?

I have been showing dogs for 35 years and yes I could name one specific breed(that we used to own) that in my opinion has changed in size as such,ie, has gotten smaller in size over the years, but other than that breeds of 35 years ago look very much like the ones being bred today. There are still good and bad examples of every breed out there now, as there was 35 years ago. There are healthy dogs and unhealthy ones in every breed. And this has been the case for many years.

What does change are breeders views and how their interpretations of the standard are applied to the breeds they own. With these differing interpretations, comes differing types of the same breed. Good and bad. If these specimens are shown then it is also the judges interpretation of the standard which may mean that the dog gets awarded or not.

I was told many years ago that in each and every breed, you can just about bet good money on the fact that there are some superb examples of each breed sitting somewhere in a persons backyard, that does not get shown.

30 years ago alot of breeders then certainly did not breed just for the money. They bred for the love of the breed, to preserve breed type as close to the standard as possible and to show their stock off to the world.

Looking at photos of breeds of dogs 30 years ago or more every breed still had breed type then, as they do now. For without breed type you dont have a breed.

If pedigree dogs of today were solely bred just for pets then we would have no need to retain standards, as they would be totally unimportant. In my opinion that would be such a wrong thing to do.

Take the likes of the British Bulldog for example. If it wasnt for the advent of dog shows then the BB would of become virtually extinct when the barbaric sport of Bullbaiting became outlawed in 1835. And just for a little bit of history for those who are interested the oldest breed Club in the world is The Bulldog Club Inc.

excellent post

[Steve]

So you would modify the Lab to suit lazy owners.

I don't know what you guys on on about. Breeds are constantly being modified, as long as you can still make out the breed, what is the problem?

Here is an example of modified breed I saw this morning.LOL

http://www.ibelievei...y-handwash-dog/

http://terriermandot...7/pug-loaf.html

Forget that, I would like you to respond to my previous posts regarding bringing in heritable diseases if stud books are opened. Why won't you respond to it?

that image has been altered you can tell becuase the front forelegs disappear and you can see extra lines been added on its back as well. I've been mucking around with images and photos for about 15 years now. if that dog was to stand up because the forelegs are so close to the back legs it wouldn't be balanced at all no dog could ever be built like that. The face looks like its been ramped up as well to me.

they've altered the image to advertise whatever they're advertising

Toy dog- its a loaf of bread. ;)

[shortstep]

So you would modify the Lab to suit lazy owners.

I don't know what you guys on on about. Breeds are constantly being modified, as long as you can still make out the breed, what is the problem?

Here is an example of modified breed I saw this morning.LOL

http://www.ibelievei...y-handwash-dog/

http://terriermandot...7/pug-loaf.html

Forget that, I would like you to respond to my previous posts regarding bringing in heritable diseases if stud books are opened. Why won't you respond to it?

that image has been altered you can tell becuase the front forelegs disappear and you can see extra lines been added on its back as well. I've been mucking around with images and photos for about 15 years now. if that dog was to stand up because the forelegs are so close to the back legs it wouldn't be balanced at all no dog could ever be built like that. The face looks like its been ramped up as well to me.

they've altered the image to advertise whatever they're advertising

Toy dog- its a loaf of bread. ;)

Actually it is a Designer Loaf...

[toy dog]

So you would modify the Lab to suit lazy owners.

I don't know what you guys on on about. Breeds are constantly being modified, as long as you can still make out the breed, what is the problem?

Here is an example of modified breed I saw this morning.LOL

http://www.ibelievei...y-handwash-dog/

http://terriermandot...7/pug-loaf.html

Forget that, I would like you to respond to my previous posts regarding bringing in heritable diseases if stud books are opened. Why won't you respond to it?

that image has been altered you can tell becuase the front forelegs disappear and you can see extra lines been added on its back as well. I've been mucking around with images and photos for about 15 years now. if that dog was to stand up because the forelegs are so close to the back legs it wouldn't be balanced at all no dog could ever be built like that. The face looks like its been ramped up as well to me.

they've altered the image to advertise whatever they're advertising

Toy dog- its a loaf of bread. ;)

an image of a loaf of breed with the face and body of a pug plastered onto it maybe. doesn't do much to promote the image of the pedigree dog people not that savvy might think, those pedigree breeders have a lot to answer for breeding a dog that looks like that. meanwhile the image has been altered. i dunno maybe im getting to upset.

[OSoSwift]

Toy Dog, I think the image was put up as a joke, it is an abviously photoshopped photo.

I don't think it was put up seriously at all.

[toy dog]

Toy Dog, I think the image was put up as a joke, it is an abviously photoshopped photo.

I don't think it was put up seriously at all.

yeah? I can't be sure a little bit confused as to the direction of some of the posts

[shortstep]

Toy Dog, I think the image was put up as a joke, it is an abviously photoshopped photo.

I don't think it was put up seriously at all.

yeah? I can't be sure a little bit confused as to the direction of some of the posts

Toy dog, go back to the first time I posted it.

I posted 2 links, one for the Ad it was used on, for soap and the message was wash your hands otherwise you eat what is on your hands (like your pet dog). Hense the Pug X Whole Meal Loaf. The second was where I saw that pic that very morning and there is also says it is a photoshop job.

I also put LOL at the end of what I said to indicate it was meant to be funny. I posted it as the prior post was about modifying dogs and I thought is was a perfect light hearted antidote.

Edited July 8, 2011 by shortstep

[Bullbreedlover]

If pedigree dogs were being bred for pets or to do what they were intended to do, as in working dogs, herding dogs etc and not being shown, there would not have been any need to change many of the breeds to conform to the show ring. I would much rather see some breeds as they were 30 or 40 years ago, as against some of the specimens of today.

Which breeds in your opinion have changed Marion1?

I have been showing dogs for 35 years and yes I could name one specific breed(that we used to own) that in my opinion has changed in size as such,ie, has gotten smaller in size over the years, but other than that breeds of 35 years ago look very much like the ones being bred today. There are still good and bad examples of every breed out there now, as there was 35 years ago. There are healthy dogs and unhealthy ones in every breed. And this has been the case for many years.

What does change are breeders views and how their interpretations of the standard are applied to the breeds they own. With these differing interpretations, comes differing types of the same breed. Good and bad. If these specimens are shown then it is also the judges interpretation of the standard which may mean that the dog gets awarded or not.

I was told many years ago that in each and every breed, you can just about bet good money on the fact that there are some superb examples of each breed sitting somewhere in a persons backyard, that does not get shown.

30 years ago alot of breeders then certainly did not breed just for the money. They bred for the love of the breed, to preserve breed type as close to the standard as possible and to show their stock off to the world.

Looking at photos of breeds of dogs 30 years ago or more every breed still had breed type then, as they do now. For without breed type you dont have a breed.

If pedigree dogs of today were solely bred just for pets then we would have no need to retain standards, as they would be totally unimportant. In my opinion that would be such a wrong thing to do.

Take the likes of the British Bulldog for example. If it wasnt for the advent of dog shows then the BB would of become virtually extinct when the barbaric sport of Bullbaiting became outlawed in 1835. And just for a little bit of history for those who are interested the oldest breed Club in the world is The Bulldog Club Inc.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

im not really getting the joke here??????????????? you must be having a good day steve lol

dont panic toy dog

its just that steve always thinks my posts are highly amusing.

Do I give a damn? nup.

It is quite funny actually

[toy dog]

If pedigree dogs were being bred for pets or to do what they were intended to do, as in working dogs, herding dogs etc and not being shown, there would not have been any need to change many of the breeds to conform to the show ring. I would much rather see some breeds as they were 30 or 40 years ago, as against some of the specimens of today.

Which breeds in your opinion have changed Marion1?

I have been showing dogs for 35 years and yes I could name one specific breed(that we used to own) that in my opinion has changed in size as such,ie, has gotten smaller in size over the years, but other than that breeds of 35 years ago look very much like the ones being bred today. There are still good and bad examples of every breed out there now, as there was 35 years ago. There are healthy dogs and unhealthy ones in every breed. And this has been the case for many years.

What does change are breeders views and how their interpretations of the standard are applied to the breeds they own. With these differing interpretations, comes differing types of the same breed. Good and bad. If these specimens are shown then it is also the judges interpretation of the standard which may mean that the dog gets awarded or not.

I was told many years ago that in each and every breed, you can just about bet good money on the fact that there are some superb examples of each breed sitting somewhere in a persons backyard, that does not get shown.

30 years ago alot of breeders then certainly did not breed just for the money. They bred for the love of the breed, to preserve breed type as close to the standard as possible and to show their stock off to the world.

Looking at photos of breeds of dogs 30 years ago or more every breed still had breed type then, as they do now. For without breed type you dont have a breed.

If pedigree dogs of today were solely bred just for pets then we would have no need to retain standards, as they would be totally unimportant. In my opinion that would be such a wrong thing to do.

Take the likes of the British Bulldog for example. If it wasnt for the advent of dog shows then the BB would of become virtually extinct when the barbaric sport of Bullbaiting became outlawed in 1835. And just for a little bit of history for those who are interested the oldest breed Club in the world is The Bulldog Club Inc.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

im not really getting the joke here??????????????? you must be having a good day steve lol

dont panic toy dog

its just that steve always thinks my posts are highly amusing.

Do I give a damn? nup.

It is quite funny actually

ok

[toy dog]

Toy Dog, I think the image was put up as a joke, it is an abviously photoshopped photo.

I don't think it was put up seriously at all.

yeah? I can't be sure a little bit confused as to the direction of some of the posts

Toy dog, go back to the first time I posted it.

I posted 2 links, one for the Ad it was used on, for soap and the message was wash your hands otherwise you eat what is on your hands (like your pet dog). Hense the Pug X Whole Meal Loaf. The second was where I saw that pic that very morning and there is also says it is a photoshop job.

I also put LOL at the end of what I said to indicate it was meant to be funny. I posted it as the prior post was about modifying dogs and I thought is was a perfect light hearted antidote.

well actually if you read one of the first comments they claim it is barely photoshopped and the picture below of a normal pic of a pug is very similar NOT. lol

[Steve]

If pedigree dogs were being bred for pets or to do what they were intended to do, as in working dogs, herding dogs etc and not being shown, there would not have been any need to change many of the breeds to conform to the show ring. I would much rather see some breeds as they were 30 or 40 years ago, as against some of the specimens of today.

Which breeds in your opinion have changed Marion1?

I have been showing dogs for 35 years and yes I could name one specific breed(that we used to own) that in my opinion has changed in size as such,ie, has gotten smaller in size over the years, but other than that breeds of 35 years ago look very much like the ones being bred today. There are still good and bad examples of every breed out there now, as there was 35 years ago. There are healthy dogs and unhealthy ones in every breed. And this has been the case for many years.

What does change are breeders views and how their interpretations of the standard are applied to the breeds they own. With these differing interpretations, comes differing types of the same breed. Good and bad. If these specimens are shown then it is also the judges interpretation of the standard which may mean that the dog gets awarded or not.

I was told many years ago that in each and every breed, you can just about bet good money on the fact that there are some superb examples of each breed sitting somewhere in a persons backyard, that does not get shown.

30 years ago alot of breeders then certainly did not breed just for the money. They bred for the love of the breed, to preserve breed type as close to the standard as possible and to show their stock off to the world.

Looking at photos of breeds of dogs 30 years ago or more every breed still had breed type then, as they do now. For without breed type you dont have a breed.

If pedigree dogs of today were solely bred just for pets then we would have no need to retain standards, as they would be totally unimportant. In my opinion that would be such a wrong thing to do.

Take the likes of the British Bulldog for example. If it wasnt for the advent of dog shows then the BB would of become virtually extinct when the barbaric sport of Bullbaiting became outlawed in 1835. And just for a little bit of history for those who are interested the oldest breed Club in the world is The Bulldog Club Inc.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

im not really getting the joke here??????????????? you must be having a good day steve lol

dont panic toy dog

its just that steve always thinks my posts are highly amusing.

Do I give a damn? nup.

It is quite funny actually

Do I ? Who are you? Cant say Ive ever noticed you much before - have I ? if so I dont remember you being so funny but surely you were joking???????????

[Marion 01]

If pedigree dogs were being bred for pets or to do what they were intended to do, as in working dogs, herding dogs etc and not being shown, there would not have been any need to change many of the breeds to conform to the show ring. I would much rather see some breeds as they were 30 or 40 years ago, as against some of the specimens of today.

Which breeds in your opinion have changed Marion1?

I have been showing dogs for 35 years and yes I could name one specific breed(that we used to own) that in my opinion has changed in size as such,ie, has gotten smaller in size over the years, but other than that breeds of 35 years ago look very much like the ones being bred today. There are still good and bad examples of every breed out there now, as there was 35 years ago. There are healthy dogs and unhealthy ones in every breed. And this has been the case for many years.

What does change are breeders views and how their interpretations of the standard are applied to the breeds they own. With these differing interpretations, comes differing types of the same breed. Good and bad. If these specimens are shown then it is also the judges interpretation of the standard which may mean that the dog gets awarded or not.

I was told many years ago that in each and every breed, you can just about bet good money on the fact that there are some superb examples of each breed sitting somewhere in a persons backyard, that does not get shown.

30 years ago alot of breeders then certainly did not breed just for the money. They bred for the love of the breed, to preserve breed type as close to the standard as possible and to show their stock off to the world.

Looking at photos of breeds of dogs 30 years ago or more every breed still had breed type then, as they do now. For without breed type you dont have a breed.

If pedigree dogs of today were solely bred just for pets then we would have no need to retain standards, as they would be totally unimportant. In my opinion that would be such a wrong thing to do.

Take the likes of the British Bulldog for example. If it wasnt for the advent of dog shows then the BB would of become virtually extinct when the barbaric sport of Bullbaiting became outlawed in 1835. And just for a little bit of history for those who are interested the oldest breed Club in the world is The Bulldog Club Inc.

Hello Bullbreedlover

I totally agree with you on the breed type etc, and the fact that pedigree dogs should not only be bred for pets. The judges interpretation of the standard goes a long way to setting new goals for breeding, ie., if a dog that is the correct conformation and size according to the standard is constantly passed over in favour of a dog who may/may not be an import that a judge prefers and who is bigger than the standard, breeders have a tendency to breed for that size, thus ignoring the standard. I know standards are there for a guide and open to interpretation, but gee just how much "give or take" should there be.

Healthy or unhealthy comes back to either luck, or bad breeding. It's only if breeders test their breed for diseases with the technology available to them, will we overcome some of the health issues.

Our family first was introduced to the pedigree dog back in 1957 when I was a 10yr old kid, he was a beautiful Cocker Spaniel which my mum showed. I didn't get into dog showing until 16 years ago, with Tibetan Terriers, but haven't been showing since we retired our beautiful show boy a few years ago.

To answer your question, a breed that my family has had since I was a 14 yrs old kid, is the German Shepherd., and my daughter also grew up with German Shepherds. We had the black and gold and also the white over the years, and in between the time we got one of our white GS and when we were looking for another one, they had disappeared only to come back a few years ago with a totally new name and not even recognised as a GS any more, plus the black and gold ones were now sporting sloped backs which didn't get there by accident I might add.

Good and bad examples of any breed exist, what I have noticed is sizing (bigger) more than looks in a lot of the breeds, and of course a lot of dogs are more glamourised for show purposes even recent breeds that haven't been here for long when they were first introduced they were to be shown as natural as possible but now I see they are being trimmed to perfection, which then takes away the character that the dog is meant to portray.

[raz]

Actually it is a Designer Loaf...

I think it might actually be a super groovy Artisan loaf...sold for big biccies in Double Pay.

[raz]

These dogs might have a bit of a problem as well. Damn those genes, hey!

[toy dog]

These dogs might have a bit of a problem as well. Damn those genes, hey!

thats a different looking cake! yum

Edited July 8, 2011 by toy dog

[toy dog]

when they were first introduced they were to be shown as natural as possible but now I see they are being trimmed to perfection, which then takes away the character that the dog is meant to portray.

yes, noticed this with the pomeranian, use to show and breed these about 15-20 years ago, the americans use to heavily trim the coat, now i notice a size difference as well as heavily trimmed when they are supposed to be in their natural form just with a slight trim of feet and maybe pants and around ears for neatness. most people are suprised when i use to tell them that they are trimmed to look like they do in the ring. they don't look like that naturally