Pedigree Dog Segment On The 7pm Project

[poodlefan]

Why don't you read it for yourself.

It says that any dogs that looks like the breed and passes the required health tests can be registered. It is a 3 genertion appedix system (just like what the WKC uses that I sugested folks look at) that brings the dogs in to main registration status, or perhaps you would want to say 'now considered purebred'.

There has already been an amendment, that allows working trial judges to look at the working breeds if the owner requests that, so they do not get exclude, as working dogs often have a body type very different from the show lines.

So this means that smooth coated border collie on the paddock down the road can enter the UK border collie stud book and then the 3 generation could come back into our stud book. So it seems rather silly to keep them out any more, it would be better to control our own intergration system. However we can just dig in and wait for the RSPCA and Governement to push our kennel club to do the same system they are doing in the UK, across the board, all breeds and no one talks to the parent.

And guess what, after this conversation I will now just support the across the board system, it is just too hard to try to get anything else even talked about, never mind done.

And no, the breed clubs have no say in the matter they cannot stop anyone from bringing in a dog. Why you ask? Because everyone knows it would take another 30 years and 24 generations to bring in a dog free of a disease that every KC registerd dog has, and only then under huge diress.

Game is over. We need to face it and deal with it and denying that change is needed it only makeing it worse.

The Gardener.

I have read it. In the response to the Bateson Report, I also noted this statement by the The Kennel Club.

Perhaps you missed it?

Inbreeding

The Kennel Club has long recognised that genetic diversity plays a crucial role in safeguarding the health of dogs and the report recognises that the Kennel Club has already banned very close matings. However, the Kennel Club thinks that the report was right only to suggest Professor Bateson’s broad guidelines on matings and that decisions should be based upon scientific knowledge and be made on a breed by breed basis. We also believe it was right not to suggest that the Kennel Club should introduce any further blanket rules across all breeds.The Kennel Club’s primary consideration is that healthy dogs are mated and the healthy genes are passed down through the gene pool. Our new Mate Select programme which is now being developed will help breeders to find suitable mating pairs, which are most likely to produce healthy offspring. It is hoped that in the longer term this will also be able to be used on an advisory basis to achieve a slowing up of any gene pool attrition.

If you're going to tout the Kennel Club's actions as the way of the future, best you note that limitation on what they propose. No "across the board" system there that I can see.

And strangely, that point is one that I and others have been making all along.

Go figure.

Edited July 6, 2011 by poodlefan

[shortstep]

So who should answer for it taking 40 years? Surely if someone knows its a problem and there is a way of fixing it - its a no brainer - fix it. Remember the agenda should be to stop dogs suffering - If an antiquated system is what is holding it up better we now re assess the sytem so that in future when we find a way of fixing something we can go ahead and use it.

Actaully it was the breed clubs that prevented it.

And I am sure that is why the open stud book has nothing to do with consulting with the breed clubs, it is across the board to prevent this from every happening again.

I also think the government has a very big gun to the KC's head and it really is now a case of our way or the highway. I mma so very sure (my crystal ball has been dusted off and is working very well) they are gearing up to have some sort of control on inbreeding levels which will use the Mate Select system.

[shortstep]

Why don't you read it for yourself.

It says that any dogs that looks like the breed and passes the required health tests can be registered. It is a 3 genertion appedix system (just like what the WKC uses that I sugested folks look at) that brings the dogs in to main registration status, or perhaps you would want to say 'now considered purebred'.

There has already been an amendment, that allows working trial judges to look at the working breeds if the owner requests that, so they do not get exclude, as working dogs often have a body type very different from the show lines.

So this means that smooth coated border collie on the paddock down the road can enter the UK border collie stud book and then the 3 generation could come back into our stud book. So it seems rather silly to keep them out any more, it would be better to control our own intergration system. However we can just dig in and wait for the RSPCA and Governement to push our kennel club to do the same system they are doing in the UK, across the board, all breeds and no one talks to the parent.

And guess what, after this conversation I will now just support the across the board system, it is just too hard to try to get anything else even talked about, never mind done.

And no, the breed clubs have no say in the matter they cannot stop anyone from bringing in a dog. Why you ask? Because everyone knows it would take another 30 years and 24 generations to bring in a dog free of a disease that every KC registerd dog has, and only then under huge diress.

Game is over. We need to face it and deal with it and denying that change is needed it only makeing it worse.

The Gardener.

I have read it. In the response to the Bateson Report, I also noted this statement by the The Kennel Club.

Perhaps you missed it?

Inbreeding

The Kennel Club has long recognised that genetic diversity plays a crucial role in safeguarding the health of dogs and the report recognises that the Kennel Club has already banned very close matings. However, the Kennel Club thinks that the report was right only to suggest Professor Bateson’s broad guidelines on matings and that decisions should be based upon scientific knowledge and be made on a breed by breed basis. We also believe it was right not to suggest that the Kennel Club should introduce any further blanket rules across all breeds.The Kennel Club’s primary consideration is that healthy dogs are mated and the healthy genes are passed down through the gene pool. Our new Mate Select programme which is now being developed will help breeders to find suitable mating pairs, which are most likely to produce healthy offspring. It is hoped that in the longer term this will also be able to be used on an advisory basis to achieve a slowing up of any gene pool attrition.

If you're going to tout the Kennel Club's actions as the way of the future, best you note that limitation on what they propose. No "across the board" system there that I can see.

And strangely, that point is one that I and others have been making all along.

Go figure.

Well you just keep figureing.

[Steve]

I agree so perhaps we should just stick to studies done on purebred breeding of mammals - where the variables more closely resemble what we do - or what we should do. No more wolves and no more people ;)

I think dogs are not mice either.

So really only dogs (unless it proves my point and the all rules of fair play are out! LOL).

[poodlefan]

Shortstep:

And guess what, after this conversation I will now just support the across the board system, it is just too hard to try to get anything else even talked about, never mind done.

I"ll talk about this until the cows come home but I'd rather not be on the back foot from the get go.

How about rather than making blanket statements about purebreds and health issues and proposing a one size fits all solution to the issue, you ask for thoughts and ideas about the subject and accept the fact that the issues faced by one breed may be different in another? You're going to know far more about Kelpies than almost anyone, but that doesn't translate to expertise in other breeds.

People would be far more receptive to your proposals if you didn't start with the proposition that all breeds are walking congential disaster areas, issue solutions as edicts and use authorities like the other Gardener to support them.

It's akin to starting a discourse with the police on crime control using Chopper Reid as your authority (although he knows way more about crime than DB does about dogs) and A Current Affair's hysterical stories as facts.

Just an idea. You catch more flies with honey...

Edited July 6, 2011 by poodlefan

[toy dog]

So who should answer for it taking 40 years? Surely if someone knows its a problem and there is a way of fixing it - its a no brainer - fix it. Remember the agenda should be to stop dogs suffering - If an antiquated system is what is holding it up better we now re assess the sytem so that in future when we find a way of fixing something we can go ahead and use it.

Actaully it was the breed clubs that prevented it.

And I am sure that is why the open stud book has nothing to do with consulting with the breed clubs, it is across the board to prevent this from every happening again.

I also think the government has a very big gun to the KC's head and it really is now a case of our way or the highway. I mma so very sure (my crystal ball has been dusted off and is working very well) they are gearing up to have some sort of control on inbreeding levels which will use the Mate Select system.

no i don't think so. i really don't think that will happen. as i also said earlier that was ignored that i went to a meeting with my controling body (dogsvictoria/VCA) and the president addressed about 100 members (room was jam packed) to tell us that the government looks to VCA for direction as VCA is one of 5 key organisations to advise the govt. i believe right beside RSPCA and others.

the govt also asked VCA about another very well known issue and i contacted VCA and asked if i am allowed to print it here on DOL but I am not allowed as they want to address public/media their own way on all of this, but its just an example that the govt are in no way putting their foot down and saying this is how it is going to be done and we are now going to do it - tough, they firstly gather their key organisations as they have done recently, and then hold a meeting and discuss some more before they decide to do that.

i believe you are describing a society of communism, perhaps?

ETA: ANKC give directive to breed clubs such as ours, my friend is the secretary, so she gets correspondence from Controlling body who inturn might get correspondence from ANKC so it all filters down like that.

although just recently they placed a rulling about breed ages but some clubs got the correspondence and asked its members of the breed clubs some quoted they did not. Some breed clubs claimed they missed out entirely on that consult. looking at our breed the age is about right. but other breeds are saying ages are wrong.

Edited July 6, 2011 by toy dog

[Are You Serious Jo]

You know, suspect that SS's gripe about purebreds boils down to the old show versus working lines. A permanently open stud book means there is no breed, you have said it yourself, breed type, but not a breed.

Do you outcross your poor inbred ANKC dogs?

I thought I was the gardener?

I make a good effort to keep the inbreeding as low as possible in my dogs.

Then why not respect the fact that you aren't the only one who can successfully breed healthy purebred dogs, if you can do it so can others in their breed. You still haven't answered the question about what will be achieved by opening the stud books on breeds that don't have health issues. Opening the stud book so that dog breeders breed by type is exactly what the Gardener wants, along with his view that the world will be better off with crossbred dogs, which BTW is a consequence of opening all the stud books.

[Steve]

So who should answer for it taking 40 years? Surely if someone knows its a problem and there is a way of fixing it - its a no brainer - fix it. Remember the agenda should be to stop dogs suffering - If an antiquated system is what is holding it up better we now re assess the sytem so that in future when we find a way of fixing something we can go ahead and use it.

Actaully it was the breed clubs that prevented it.

And I am sure that is why the open stud book has nothing to do with consulting with the breed clubs, it is across the board to prevent this from every happening again.

I also think the government has a very big gun to the KC's head and it really is now a case of our way or the highway. I mma so very sure (my crystal ball has been dusted off and is working very well) they are gearing up to have some sort of control on inbreeding levels which will use the Mate Select system.

no i don't think so. i really don't think that will happen. as i also said earlier that was ignored that i went to a meeting with my controling body (dogsvictoria/VCA) and the president addressed about 100 members (room was jam packed) to tell us that the government looks to VCA for direction as VCA is one of 5 key organisations to advise the govt. i believe right beside RSPCA and others.

the govt also asked VCA about another very well known issue and i contacted VCA and asked if i am allowed to print it here on DOL but I am not allowed as they want to address public/media their own way on all of this, but its just an example that the govt are in no way putting their foot down and saying this is how it is going to be done and we are now going to do it - tough, they firstly gather their key organisations as they have done recently, and then hold a meeting and discuss some more before they decide to do that.

i believe you are describing a society of communism, perhaps?

I believe you dont know the full story - and what is going on from the other side. I believe that some havent worked out yet that the CCs are representing a minority group and times are changing.

How much impact did Voc dogs have when breeding Scottish fold cats was made illegal? When it became a crimminal offence to take a debarked dog to a dog show? To make it a crimminal offence to breed a carrier?

The agenda is for one overriding body which will regulate all dog related issues and while they may give the CCs a token seat - just as they did in the UK it will be rather like 10 wolves sitting down with one sheep and voting on whats for dinner. The CCs have already gone along with them by introducing various regs which have set the scene for them to take it further and make it law.

Edited July 6, 2011 by Steve

[OSoSwift]

I do not have a problem if studbooks are opened on an as needs basis.

I do not have a problem if it is done to fix an issue that cannot be fixed by using the dogs already registered - as in the Dalmatian and the use of the Pointer. I do not have an issue if the studbook is opened to unregistered purebreds that are free from the diseases that are an issue.

I do have an issue if the books are just thrown open and anyone is invited, I do have a problem if it is a blanket thing across all breeds.

I am sure all ethical breeders want their puppies and dogs to be healthy, I am sure they would like to breed very healthy dogs with no health issues. If stud books are opened judiciosly then that can be achieved without opening all books to all and sundry.

It was not so long ago the Jack Russells books were open. I also remember what was involved to get a dog registered. It can be done, but using a shotgun to do the work of a .22 is not in anyones favour.

Edited July 6, 2011 by OSoSwift

[Steve]

I dont have a problem if all stud books are open as long as there is more going on in considering a dog for entry other than the way it resembles the breed and that the breeders are able to say what they are aiming for and why this will take them there.

[toy dog]

I believe you dont know the full story - and what is going on from the other side. I beleive that some havent worked out yet that the CCs are representing a minority group and times are changing.

How much impact did Voc dogs have when breeding Scottish fold cats was made illegal? When it became a crimminal offence to take a debarked dog to a dog show? To make it a crimminal offence to breed a carrier?

The agenda is for one overriding body which will regulate all dog related issues and while they may give the CCs a token seat - just as they did in the UK it will be rather like 10 wolves sitting down with one sheep and voting on whats for dinner. The CCs have already gone along with them by introducing various regs which have set the scene for them to take it further and make it law.

i don't know where they were Steve, I have been wondering that myself. No one said a thing then. Judging by what i read years ago about the tail docking issue, they didn't have a voice then with the govt, that is what was said. after members asked for this to happen more it was done. im only repeating what was told to me by the CEO herself and staff going to the meeting and also having further correspondence. why would DOgs vic be commenting on what is going on in the cat world?

can you be sure that is what is going on? Yes UK Kennel club has been done like a dogs dinner over all of this andit does seem they are bowing down to pressure. I don't deny that but as i said earlier whats going on in UK doesn't mean its going on here for sure. but yes i saw that there are various registries including x-breed group, on that committee. it could very well happen but powers that be have assured me and others that they are going to do their best to protect its members they already did do that i believe protecting the "hobby" breeder with councils. i.e. 10 fertile bitches kept by VCA member. exempt. i was told i can forward email that was sent to me. privately.

i have to watch what i say sorry.

same debate we had probably about 6-8 months ago on this very thing.

[poodlefan]

I dont have a problem if all stud books are open as long as there is more going on in considering a dog for entry other than the way it resembles the breed and that the breeders are able to say what they are aiming for and why this will take them there.

I don't either under those conditions. However the notion that a dog without a pedigree is going to be genetically different to those in the stud book might bear closer inspection. Two limited register dogs would produce that now.. from within the existing gene pool.

[toy dog]

I dont have a problem if all stud books are open as long as there is more going on in considering a dog for entry other than the way it resembles the breed and that the breeders are able to say what they are aiming for and why this will take them there.

I don't either under those conditions. However the notion that a dog without a pedigree is going to be genetically different to those in the stud book might bear closer inspection. Two limited register dogs would produce that now.. from within the existing gene pool.

sorry i am going to go out on a limb here and say i do have a problem with it in my own breed. I have enough trouble trying to keep out PL in my bloodlines and to introduce more dogs that i don't know their lines beyond 3 generation when i have proven that they can pick up this genetic problem from at least 5 - 6 gens back.

[poodlefan]

sorry i am going to go out on a limb here and say i do have a problem with it in my own breed. I have enough trouble trying to keep out PL in my bloodlines and to introduce more dogs that i don't know their lines beyond 3 generation when i have proven that they can pick up this genetic problem from at least 5 - 6 gens back.

You're making an assumption that a dog outside the stud book has unknown parentage. That is not always the case, particularly for working dogs.

What's the mode of inheritance for PL.. unknown? I'd have thought breeding from a dog without it would be the start point now??

[toy dog]

sorry i am going to go out on a limb here and say i do have a problem with it in my own breed. I have enough trouble trying to keep out PL in my bloodlines and to introduce more dogs that i don't know their lines beyond 3 generation when i have proven that they can pick up this genetic problem from at least 5 - 6 gens back.

You're making an assumption that a dog outside the stud book has unknown parentage. That is not always the case, particularly for working dogs.

What's the mode of inheritance for PL.. unknown? I'd have thought breeding from a dog without it would be the start point now??

my experience with it has been strongly recessive and i think that at the same time if thats possible polygenetic as well. many years ago we talked about PL and many ascertained this might be the case. which makes it damn hard to control.

a dog without PL could be a carrier and produce it or it may skip and then produce. being able to pinpoint it with known heritage is my line of defence. seeing as it can be strongly recessive i'd take my chances with dogs that i can research rather than with dogs i can't, going on what was posted up on UK model. not registered condidered unknown heritage so asterisks gets placed in pedigree until no longer there with each generation.

recessive can only occur if the two parents have the gene to express it. if one only has the gene then the dominant gene takes over. this is what has been happening with my dogs over many years.

its not always possible to view each and every dog in the pedigrees particularly when you outcross so accidentally you could be producing a dog with a double whammy and have no idea where its come from especially when some breeders are not always forthcoming with info to research or its not possible to research bloodline, it makes it all the more harder bringing in dogs that are questionable in heritage, knowing the parents isn't good enough for this problem you need to know at least 4-5-6 generations back to be confident.

not sure if that answers your question or not

Edited July 6, 2011 by toy dog

[Steve]

I dont have a problem if all stud books are open as long as there is more going on in considering a dog for entry other than the way it resembles the breed and that the breeders are able to say what they are aiming for and why this will take them there.

I don't either under those conditions. However the notion that a dog without a pedigree is going to be genetically different to those in the stud book might bear closer inspection. Two limited register dogs would produce that now.. from within the existing gene pool.

sorry i am going to go out on a limb here and say i do have a problem with it in my own breed. I have enough trouble trying to keep out PL in my bloodlines and to introduce more dogs that i don't know their lines beyond 3 generation when i have proven that they can pick up this genetic problem from at least 5 - 6 gens back.

Years ago I bred Ragdoll cats. Some breeders came along and said there was a limited gene pool and they wanted to introduce new blood and make new colours .So the CFA said go ahead. I was really against this as back then the breed was bombproof - had no known nasty recessives and was fertile and all was well. To this day I never got why they allowed the program to go especially as they used breeds which had known genetic disorders.

I held out and refused to breed any of the the new lines and over several years watched as cardio myopathy showed up and bunch of others that had never been there before. Now 20 years later I wouldnt be able to buy a cat to breed with in that breed that didnt have cats from those outcrosses in there somewhere. Same withthe bob tailed boxer - by now its up to around 18 generations and anyone who thinks they will be able to own a boxer indefinitely that doesnt have a drop of corgi in it indefinitely is fooling themselves. My point is once its done its done so we had better get it right.

In your case there is no saying that someone may be out there who is breeding chi's and has kept the same records as you and has done everything the same except register their pups - AND - There are more things to look at in your breed than just PL - so it would all depend on what info you had and what you were selecting for. However the same result could be achieved if the health issues as well as titles were recorded some place where every one could get access to them. Of course the big deal is that in breeding causes lack of fertility and blah blah blah so for those most likely to make laws PL etc will be the least of their considerations.

[shortstep]

I dont have a problem if all stud books are open as long as there is more going on in considering a dog for entry other than the way it resembles the breed and that the breeders are able to say what they are aiming for and why this will take them there.

As I understand it, the idea is to have a total change from a closed stud book system to an open stud book system. This would allow for constant flow of new blood into all the breed stud books. It is not about addressing a certain problem, or a breeder having a certain plan approved by the breed club.

I think if over the past 20 years, that had been many openings of stud books in many breeds, addressing breeds with high COI's or health or structure problems as you said some sort of plan and the more obvious breeds were now opened up to their larger populations outside the KC (like the WKC), then maybe the Open Stud Book system would not be the only choice being put on offer. But I think now it has reached the point of, too little too late, so now the only option is the Open stud book system, at least from what I see happening.

But can I ask, if you those who are keeping your lines closed and do not open up your line to even the current stud book dogs, then as you said the other day, it would have no effect on you.

What I think needs to be explored is the idea that not every body has to breed dogs with in a breed the same way. Some breeders can keep their lines closed if they want. Others can open up their lines using the 3 generation system if they want. This makes the total picture of greater flexibility in types of breeding plans and therefore population of dogs are much more diverse, which can be viewed as a positive by the members and by society.

What I am afraid of, is that after these Open stud books are put into place like it or not, that no one will use them. (Peer pressure and attacks as we have seen on this thread will put off many who might have liked too, which I think is not only sad but also shameful). Then with no progress made towards change, what will be said next is, 'we gave them the tools for change and they refused to change their ways, so now we close down the whole system'.

[toy dog]

In your case there is no saying that someone may be out there who is breeding chi's and has kept the same records as you and has done everything the same except register their pups - AND - There are more things to look at in your breed than just PL - so it would all depend on what info you had and what you were selecting for. However the same result could be achieved if the health issues as well as titles were recorded some place where every one could get access to them. Of course the big deal is that in breeding causes lack of fertility and blah blah blah so for those most likely to make laws PL etc will be the least of their considerations.

as was stated by the national breed club as there were several people trying to put through schemes on PL over many years, its up to the individual breeders themselves to keep records to breed it out of the lines etc. yes there are other things to breed for besides PL, however, besides this common health problem they are generally a reasonable healthy and sturdy little breed. LIke any other breed there can be bite probs, heart probs etc. etc. but not as common as is PL.

im of the opinion that a dog can display good breed type and be everything the standard calls for but if it isn't sound its not really worthy of placing into the gene pool.

there are quite a few chi breeders who feel as i do and screen strictly for PL, im not the only one so i don't doubt for a minute that there are perhaps unreg bred on the same principles. there was once this lady that turned up at a show had reg dogs for years no one knew her but goes in the ring with a beautiful example of the breed sound as a bell wins hands down. So she was away from everyone and still applying all that i and others do with her dogs.

[Are You Serious Jo]

As I understand it, the idea is to have a total change from a closed stud book system to an open stud book system. This would allow for constant flow of new blood into all the breed stud books. It is not about addressing a certain problem, or a breeder having a certain plan approved by the breed club.

So can you clarify that what you have said above is true, you'd like to see an open studbook for all breeds, even those with no health issues? A yes will suffice.

[poodlefan]

What I am afraid of, is that after these Open stud books are put into place like it or not, that no one will use them. (Peer pressure and attacks as we have seen on this thread will put off many who might have liked too, which I think is not only sad but also shameful). Then with no progress made towards change, what will be said next is, 'we gave them the tools for change and they refused to change their ways, so now we close down the whole system'.

To want to bring a new dog onto the stud book two conditions need to exist:

* a new dog has to be identified.. and not every breed has significant or quality dogs outside the stud book as is the case for some of the working breeds

* there has to be an identified issue that requires resolution. Introducing new genes for the sheer sake of it doesn't always produce a better result, as Steve's ragdoll example illustrates.

May I politely suggest that the 'attacks' in this thread have been on your ideas, not you. Suggesting that change should be done uncritically (and no one I see has suggested that some change isn't necessary) creates exactly the situation you warn against.. not all change results in "progress". I don't see any flat earth society at work here.. just folk who want to see evidence of issues before fixing a problem that may not exist.

In a breed with thousands of individuals of fairly diverse genes in a range of countries, why anyone would want to bring a new dog into the stud book is questionable. Without identified goals and careful research, its a nightmare waiting to happen.