Steve Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) why cant you breed a WKC kelpie to an ANKC kelpie. Far as I know the ANKC has exemptions on for working dog breeders. You may not be able to get them on the ANKC data base but there is no prohibition last time I looked to being able to breed them. Yes we would not want to bring that cross bred back into the kennel club now would we. LOL So yes this is true if you want to leave the kennel club you are free not to inbred, point well made and well taken...LOL My case rests LOL No I dont think so - as a working dog breeder you are able to mate your registered dogs with other working dogs which are not registered and still remain a member - you just cant register your puppies. Edited July 4, 2011 by Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 However, surely we can both agree that the recessives for a purebred dog breeder are the easiest for us to try to work with - identify and even if there are no DNA test available as yet that there is a fair chance there will be in reasonably short time or we can track potential carriers and do something about it all. Polygenic diseases for us are 100% the most challenging - causing immune related issues, joint issues and it seems more and more every day. As a purebred dog breeder I hold more hope of being able to do something to stop dogs sufering in my breed from recessive disorders than I do with polygenic ones - therefore whether there are more recessives or more polygenic is a mute point - however, I can guarantee that there are less recessives in my purebreds than there are in a mixed breed dog. LOL well I think you have about as good as idea of what recessives are hidding in your dogs as I do in my dogs, Zip as in Zero. But we both know they are there hidding, or atleast I hope you know that. This is a common argument that inbreeding helps to control disease. To me it is far better to have resessive genes not concentrated so that we never or very seldom see them. Verses concentrating them to the point they show up and now we have to deal with. Often by more inbreding in attempts to get rid of them. All the while concentrating some other recessive we did not know was there. It is a dog chasing it's tail game if you ask me. (which I am sure you did not LOL) Except that Ive been inbreeding for 30 plus years and you havent. Id say Id have a heaps better chance of knowing the recessives which are in my yard over what you know are in yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 why cant you breed a WKC kelpie to an ANKC kelpie. Far as I know the ANKC has exemptions on for working dog breeders. You may not be able to get them on the ANKC data base but there is no prohibition last time I looked to being able to breed them. Yes we would not want to bring that cross bred back into the kennel club now would we. LOL So yes this is true if you want to leave the kennel club you are free not to inbred, point well made and well taken...LOL My case rests LOL No I dont think so - as a working dog breeder you are able to mate your working dogs with other working dogs which are not registered and still remain a member - you just cant register your puppies. Oh yes that is very good, as it keep the money for membership coming in and the well bred working bred pups out. That is just the image ANKC should be promoting right now. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 why cant you breed a WKC kelpie to an ANKC kelpie. Far as I know the ANKC has exemptions on for working dog breeders. You may not be able to get them on the ANKC data base but there is no prohibition last time I looked to being able to breed them. Yes we would not want to bring that cross bred back into the kennel club now would we. LOL So yes this is true if you want to leave the kennel club you are free not to inbred, point well made and well taken...LOL My case rests LOL No I dont think so - as a working dog breeder you are able to mate your working dogs with other working dogs which are not registered and still remain a member - you just cant register your puppies. Oh yes that is very good, as it keep the money for membership coming in and the well bred working bred pups out. That is just the image ANKC should be promoting right now. LOL In basis I agree with you but I dont want any old dog being able to be placed on the registry and surely there has to be some line in the sand . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toy dog Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 To me this is a slight of hand argument. Using your example of Chi and PL. We do not know what causes PL, but I think we safe is saying is not simple recessive and is a complex disease. So proving a disease that is not a recessive shows up in a chi cross has nothing to do with inbreeding and recessive diseases. Patella luxation isn't a "disease" at all but a consquence of certain structural issues in the dog's hind legs. Its as endemic in crossbreds as it is in any breed you care to name. Selection for different structure would be as effective as banning inbreeding. Indeed, once you've got a structure in Chi's that mitigates against the risk of PL, you "inbreed" to increase its occurence. But not under the new world order you don't. yeah?? um....looking up the meaning of "disease" it says a morbid condition that affects the body. Morbid meaning unhealthy. So with reference to that i'd say you could call it a disease. sure does act like one. i refer to it as a disease sometimes, other times i might refer to it as a genetic condition. might ask my trusted vet what he considers it to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toy dog Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 why cant you breed a WKC kelpie to an ANKC kelpie. Far as I know the ANKC has exemptions on for working dog breeders. You may not be able to get them on the ANKC data base but there is no prohibition last time I looked to being able to breed them. In basis I agree with you but I dont want any old dog being able to be placed on the registry and surely there has to be some line in the sand . thats a bit scary, we should accept dogs with unknown heritage??? my gosh the world has gone mad. i shudder to think how this is all going to pan out in 10 20 years time, the pedigree dog probably will be extinct by then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) In basis I agree with you but I dont want any old dog being able to be placed on the registry and surely there has to be some line in the sand . So do you want ANKC to close the stud book to UK imports that go back to their new apendix registered dogs? These dogs will not have pedigess listed even if they have them (I think). So would be just any dog by a purebred kennel club standards I would think. For example a WKC dog could be imported to the UK and now registered into the KC, 3 generations later his great grand pups could find their way back to OZ, so would you want to block these dogs from being in the ANKC due to the apendix working dog in the pedigree? What will you do if the ANKC did like the KC did and just announce with out warning, they are doing the same open stud book policy here !!! Edited July 4, 2011 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I'm starting to suspect SS might just be The Gardener with all this talk of breeding dogs that looks like the right breed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 thats a bit scary, we should accept dogs with unknown heritage??? my gosh the world has gone mad. i shudder to think how this is all going to pan out in 10 20 years time, the pedigree dog probably will be extinct by then. So toydog, what do you thinkof the British Kennel club haveing done this, they are now an open stud book for all breeds including chi, any dogs that looks like the breed passes any maditory health tests will be registered, 3 generations later the pups are full KC registration ready for export to OZ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I'm starting to suspect SS might just be The Gardener with all this talk of breeding dogs that looks like the right breed Jo, have you read what the UK Kennel club has done with reguard to opening their stud book? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) Here Jo, this is one copy that the Gardner and the UK kennel club have put into action, but this is not the latest edition. One change is that now working judges can also check the dog for breed type, this is to prevent working dogs from being accidently exculded since they often have a different apperence to show type. A pilot scheme which could enhance genetic diversity has been announced by the Kennel Club. It will allow purebred unregistered dogs to be registered on the Breed Register on a case by case basis. This is a return to the position which existed forty years ago when similar rules were in force. Enhancing genetic diversity The move, approved by the Kennel Club General Committee last year, will if used, enhance genetic diversity by widening breed gene pools and allowing new bloodlines to be introduced within breeds. Under the new pilot scheme, every successful application will be admitted to the register with three asterisks next to its name. Asterisks will be applied for three further generations, in order to identify the fact that there is unknown or unregistered ancestry behind a dog. How to apply Applications will need to be accompanied by a letter of explanation of how the applicant acquired the dogand will then only be considered on the proviso that the dog: a) is verified by two Championship level judges appointed by the Kennel Club who should agree that the dog is representative of its breed. b) is DNA profiled. c) has relevant health tests (equivalent to that required and recommended under the Kennel Club Accredited Breeder Scheme) for the breed. Breed specific health requirements under the ABS can be viewed at www.thekennelclub.org.uk/breedhealth. To ensure that only genuine applicants apply, strict requirements have been put in place that will need to be completed before an application is finally approved by the Committee, and in addition there will be an administration fee of £100 per dog. Every application will be considered on a case by case basis. Whilst the Kennel Club is keen to open up its register, it should be noted that there is no guarantee that dogs so registered (and their progeny) will be accepted for registration by overseas registering bodies. That will depend upon their local regulations. Application forms are available direct from the Registration Office on 0844 4633 980 ENDS [125.11] 19th April 2011 Notes to Editors If a dog of unknown origin is accepted on the Breed Register, the dogs registration will be annotated by three asterisks to indicate unverified origins. If it is bred from and mated to other fully registered dogs of the same breed (with no asterisks next to their name), their progeny, the F1 progeny, will also be annotated with three asterisks. If the F1 progeny are bred from, and mated to other fully registered dogs of the agreed breed (with no asterisks against their name), their progeny, the F2 progeny, will be annotated with two asterisks. F2 progeny mated to fully registered dogs of the agreed breed (with no asterisks against their name), will produce F3 progeny that will be registered with one asterisk. The F4 and subsequent generations will have no special annotation. Edited July 4, 2011 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toy dog Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 thats a bit scary, we should accept dogs with unknown heritage??? my gosh the world has gone mad. i shudder to think how this is all going to pan out in 10 20 years time, the pedigree dog probably will be extinct by then. So toydog, what do you thinkof the British Kennel club haveing done this, they are now an open stud book for all breeds including chi, any dogs that looks like the breed passes any maditory health tests will be registered, 3 generations later the pups are full KC registration ready for export to OZ! good question, considering about a year ago or more the americans had their blue merle chihuahuas and swore black and blue this colour had always been in chihuahuas, when in the last 5-10 yrs it had just appeared there with no history. turns out many breeders many years beforehand had gotten dachunds and crossed them with chis to get this colour so you saw very short legs and also very long backs ever so often. it was decided in chihuahua clubs around the world to ban these american imports so it was done. on the basis we did not want cross breeds into our registries. to give us more faults than we already have in the breed to deal with. so that was that. and i suspect the clubs from around the world who talk to each other might be saying something about that, can't be sure..i certainly wouldn't want my bloodlines i've worked bloody hard on for the last 25 years muddied by crosses with unknown makeup i suspect alot more might feel like this too. in UK chihuahuas are separated by coat i.e. long can only be mated to long, smooth to smooth so breeders over there have complained of it limiting the gene pool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 We already know there are issues with the English system. I am pretty sure that any good Australian breeder won't import a dog that is bred from parents that just look like a certain breed, they do their pedigree homework and what is behind each parent for more than 3 generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toy dog Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I'm starting to suspect SS might just be The Gardener with all this talk of breeding dogs that looks like the right breed i wasn't thinking of the gardener i was thinking SS sounds alot like someone i used to debate the same subjects with a very long time ago on here infact. sounds very similar to this other person that use to frequent the boards. perhaps they have come back under a new name? we still don't know who this person is, they aint telling us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toy dog Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 We already know there are issues with the English system. I am pretty sure that any good Australian breeder won't import a dog that is bred from parents that just look like a certain breed, they do their pedigree homework and what is behind each parent for more than 3 generations. yepo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I'm starting to suspect SS might just be The Gardener with all this talk of breeding dogs that looks like the right breed i wasn't thinking of the gardener i was thinking SS sounds alot like someone i used to debate the same subjects with a very long time ago on here infact. sounds very similar to this other person that use to frequent the boards. perhaps they have come back under a new name? we still don't know who this person is, they aint telling us. You have to love the front of someone who doesn't breed ANKC dogs telling the ANKC people how it should be done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toy dog Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I'm starting to suspect SS might just be The Gardener with all this talk of breeding dogs that looks like the right breed i wasn't thinking of the gardener i was thinking SS sounds alot like someone i used to debate the same subjects with a very long time ago on here infact. sounds very similar to this other person that use to frequent the boards. perhaps they have come back under a new name? we still don't know who this person is, they aint telling us. You have to love the front of someone who doesn't breed ANKC dogs telling the ANKC people how it should be done ahuh. this other person i knew, was in with dogs for 5 minutes and instantly became an expert, telling me that older wiser breeders that had been with the breed for over 40 years didn't know anything at all so they'd throw around talk of genetics direct quotes from books and delight in watching the breeders look at them in confusion, i think most of them thought who's this turkey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) I'm starting to suspect SS might just be The Gardener with all this talk of breeding dogs that looks like the right breed i wasn't thinking of the gardener i was thinking SS sounds alot like someone i used to debate the same subjects with a very long time ago on here infact. sounds very similar to this other person that use to frequent the boards. perhaps they have come back under a new name? we still don't know who this person is, they aint telling us. You have to love the front of someone who doesn't breed ANKC dogs telling the ANKC people how it should be done I breed ANKC dogs, and even if I did not, I still have every right to voice an opinion, without personal attack. Now leaving that aside and back on to topic. So you are pretty sure that even if ANKC opens their stud books no breeder would ever use any thing but an exsisting ANKC regsitered dog. See I think the The KC did this becasue of the Bateson report, sort of like it is time to change or we are going to close you down nudge nudge. I see the open stud book as needed for some breeds to survive the transition I see coming next. This also ties in with the Mate Select and the inbreeding calcuator which also have just been released. I am thinking they are going to make rules about the amount of inbreeding allowed. Some breeds will have to look to these new dogs in order lower their inbreeding enough to quaify, other breeds might get by for a time, but any influx of new dogs would help to lower the over all breed inbreeding level. Now this is all just a guess on my part, but they are certainly putting in all the systems needed to do this sort of monitoring of inbreeding on litters. Anyway if nothing else I see it is the most important change to have happened in kennel club breeding in the past 50-100 years. Clearly something that deserves lots of dicussion even if there is not a single breeder in ANKC would ever admit in public to considering trying to lower their inbreeding levels for fear of being called a gardner (and we all know how bad that is)! Edited July 4, 2011 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benshiva Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I'm starting to suspect SS might just be The Gardener with all this talk of breeding dogs that looks like the right breed i wasn't thinking of the gardener i was thinking SS sounds alot like someone i used to debate the same subjects with a very long time ago on here infact. sounds very similar to this other person that use to frequent the boards. perhaps they have come back under a new name? we still don't know who this person is, they aint telling us. You have to love the front of someone who doesn't breed ANKC dogs telling the ANKC people how it should be done I find this amusing as well. They seem to consistently put the boot into the ANKC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 In basis I agree with you but I dont want any old dog being able to be placed on the registry and surely there has to be some line in the sand . So do you want ANKC to close the stud book to UK imports that go back to their new apendix registered dogs? These dogs will not have pedigess listed even if they have them (I think). So would be just any dog by a purebred kennel club standards I would think. For example a WKC dog could be imported to the UK and now registered into the KC, 3 generations later his great grand pups could find their way back to OZ, so would you want to block these dogs from being in the ANKC due to the apendix working dog in the pedigree? What will you do if the ANKC did like the KC did and just announce with out warning, they are doing the same open stud book policy here !!! What of heritable diseases where there is no test? At least with a pedigree you can track which dogs have it. Without a pedigree it's a crap shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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