Another Separation Anxiety Problem...

[neo2011]

We took home our 8 week old Kelpie approx 5 weeks ago (he is now 13 weeks old) and he had MAJOR separation anxiety issues. He stuck to us like velcro, always sitting by our legs and even in the kitchen so we have banned him from going in there and setting him boundaries. On the first few days, he cried if left alone for literally 10seconds. One time after I took him out to the toilet and went back inside for bedtime, I left him for literally less than 2 mins and when I returned, he had pooped and peed everywhere out of anxiousness.

I started working on crating him for longer periods of time and he has successfully done 1hr with *some* crying for the first 10mins or so before settling down. I work from home and he spends most of his time inside the house. My my partner was made redundant at work recently and thats when his crate training went backwards where he would refuse to get in his crate and cries excessively. I've gone back to basics and crated him less and associating his crate as a positive place again and now he gets in there on command. However, I'm still working on his separation anxiety issues..

My question is that when I leave him in there to go out for 20-30mins and if I return, he is quiet...do I let him out and praise him?? I read that on your return, you should stay calm and ignore the dog as a praise on your return will only make the dog more anxious.. But others say that if you return and he is quiet, you should praise the dog? I don't want to do the wrong thing and want to make sure this doesn't go on for a long time into his adulthood. So do I praise him and let him out of the crate when quiet or just let him out and ignore him for the first 5-10mins?

I also leave the radio on when I leave (doesn't seem to do too much, but I'll stick to it anyway). I now also give him a high value treat before I leave and take it back when I return to give him something to look forward to in the future when I do leave the house and that seems to work a little bit better. Are there any other suggestions and am I doing everything right??

[poodlefan]

We took home our 8 week old Kelpie approx 5 weeks ago (he is now 13 weeks old) and he had MAJOR separation anxiety issues. He stuck to us like velcro, always sitting by our legs and even in the kitchen so we have banned him from going in there and setting him boundaries. On the first few days, he cried if left alone for literally 10seconds. One time after I took him out to the toilet and went back inside for bedtime, I left him for literally less than 2 mins and when I returned, he had pooped and peed everywhere out of anxiousness.

I started working on crating him for longer periods of time and he has successfully done 1hr with *some* crying for the first 10mins or so before settling down. I work from home and he spends most of his time inside the house. My my partner was made redundant at work recently and thats when his crate training went backwards where he would refuse to get in his crate and cries excessively. I've gone back to basics and crated him less and associating his crate as a positive place again and now he gets in there on command. However, I'm still working on his separation anxiety issues..

My question is that when I leave him in there to go out for 20-30mins and if I return, he is quiet...do I let him out and praise him?? I read that on your return, you should stay calm and ignore the dog as a praise on your return will only make the dog more anxious.. But others say that if you return and he is quiet, you should praise the dog? I don't want to do the wrong thing and want to make sure this doesn't go on for a long time into his adulthood. So do I praise him and let him out of the crate when quiet or just let him out and ignore him for the first 5-10mins?

I also leave the radio on when I leave (doesn't seem to do too much, but I'll stick to it anyway). I now also give him a high value treat before I leave and take it back when I return to give him something to look forward to in the future when I do leave the house and that seems to work a little bit better. Are there any other suggestions and am I doing everything right??

No offence but a 13 week old is highly unlikely to have separation anxiety.

I'm a little confused about your post. Is the issue with the crate or when you leave the pup at home? What happens if you leave the pup uncrated?

[W Sibs]

I don't think he has separation anxiety either... I think he is being a typical sookie puppy

You don't have to praise the dog, but you can reward the pup's quiet behaviour but just simply letting him out. He will associate being quiet is the only way he can get out of his crate. Once he is out, if you have the need to praise him.. that's the time to do it.

I don't praise Emmy for being quiet in the crate, but I reward her being quiet by giving her treats (through the crate) . But, the ultimate reward I give her, it to release her out of her crate though. But, that's what she wants. To be out. :D

Does that make sense?

Edited June 29, 2011 by CW EW

[neo2011]

No offence but a 13 week old is highly unlikely to have separation anxiety.

I'm a little confused about your post. Is the issue with the crate or when you leave the pup at home? What happens if you leave the pup uncrated?

Hmmm...So what do you think the problem is? WHy is he crying when we leave him? Its not fear of confinement as he will happily go in there now and sometimes (although rarely) when we are at home and he's sleeping in his crate, I open the door and he just stays in there anyway for a few more minutes. The crying is when he thinks we're leaving (or when we actually do leave) or even when crated in the next room while I'm at home. When I leave the house, I always crate him as it would be highly irresponsible to leave a pup uncrated and unsupervised with choking hazards. One time I left him for 10mins uncrated and he did what I expected...he peed and pooped everywhere out of nervousness/anxiety (even if I emptied him right before I leave). Also when he is uncrated and I go into another room with the door shut, he will cry and claw at the door and pee there as well. Sometimes if he's highly anxious in his crate when we leave, he will also soil his sleeping area and ignore all treats in there and also clawing at the walls.

Of course, we ignore all the crying and if excessive crying goes on for 10mins, I get my shoe and slam it against the house door to make a loud bang so he associates a negative thing with being whiney. We only EVER let him out when he's quiet and calm.

CW_EW, thanks for the input. I will try that and see how he goes. I do occasionally give him treats through the crate, but wasn't sure about the praising.

I've been told to let him out in the backyard when we leave so I might puppy proof the backyard and give that a try. Just wanted to see if there's anything else I can do to stop the whining and clawing.

[poodlefan]

No offence but a 13 week old is highly unlikely to have separation anxiety.

I'm a little confused about your post. Is the issue with the crate or when you leave the pup at home? What happens if you leave the pup uncrated?

Hmmm...So what do you think the problem is? WHy is he crying when we leave him? Its not fear of confinement as he will happily go in there now and sometimes (although rarely) when we are at home and he's sleeping in his crate, I open the door and he just stays in there anyway for a few more minutes. The crying is when he thinks we're leaving (or when we actually do leave) or even when crated in the next room while I'm at home. When I leave the house, I always crate him as it would be highly irresponsible to leave a pup uncrated and unsupervised with choking hazards. One time I left him for 10mins uncrated and he did what I expected...he peed and pooped everywhere out of nervousness/anxiety (even if I emptied him right before I leave). Also when he is uncrated and I go into another room with the door shut, he will cry and claw at the door and pee there as well. Sometimes if he's highly anxious in his crate when we leave, he will also soil his sleeping area and ignore all treats in there and also clawing at the walls.

Of course, we ignore all the crying and if excessive crying goes on for 10mins, I get my shoe and slam it against the house door to make a loud bang so he associates a negative thing with being whiney. We only EVER let him out when he's quiet and calm.

CW_EW, thanks for the input. I will try that and see how he goes. I do occasionally give him treats through the crate, but wasn't sure about the praising.

I've been told to let him out in the backyard when we leave so I might puppy proof the backyard and give that a try. Just wanted to see if there's anything else I can do to stop the whining and clawing.

Do you feed him in his crate?

What's his reward for being quiet in there are the moment. Does he get anything to occupy him when you leave?

Does he voluntarily spend any time in there just chilling when you're around?

[Dogsfevr]

He is being a normal pup that has lost everything familiar to him ,pups whinge that is normal your expectations aren't .

I gather this pup was used to running outside & having freedom at the breeders & now it is confined & at present you have made it reliant on your guidience because its either crated or with you ,you haven't said what time frame it spends outside being a pup .

Does pup have access to a door to get outside??

What toilet training regime have you taught it??

Have much outside time does pup get ??

How much play time/walks/play ball does it get ??

Our mini schnauzer babies run an acre at 6 weeks they weigh less than a kilo ,they spend hours outside & use the doggy door .

It sounds like this pup needs more freedom outside & less banging/yelling.

The Kelpies we board are very sensitive dogs & very people orientated after all that is the working aspect of being with the "master " they crave the attention but love there outside world

[**Super_Dogs**]

Can I suggest you buy Susan Gerrett's Crate Games DVD. It is only $30-$40 and it is excellent!! I used her method to crate my puppy and have fantastic results.

Unfortunetly we had to crate our puppy for long periods as she fractured her elbow. You would think she would hate the crate, but he happily runs in when told. She does venture into the crate when it is open but she does not lie down or stay - maybe this is because she prefers to snuggle with me on the couch :D

On the DVD there is a method to stop crying. I have not tried this as I have not had a problem - but I have found all Susan Garrett's methods to work - so I am sure it would.

I will often crate my puppy when I am in the house. I want her to get use to being crated and not fuss. I like crating her while I am in the room as I don't want her to think that just because she can see me she is getting out.

Another important thing is the rewards must be for being in the crate. I never reward my puppy when she comes out (I did for a small time when training but it was a low value reward).

Hope this helps.

Edited June 29, 2011 by buddy1

[neo2011]

Thanks for all the inputs guys. My dog (named Neo), is more of an inside dog and when I leave him outside, he wants to come back in. (Because we're inside). Also doesn't like wet grass (at 8 weeks old when we picked him up, he had NEVER gone outsid before). However, we do try to tire him out with fetch (if its dry outside) or fetch inside (I have a large 20m open area that spans from the front to the back of the house) and he does love running up and down there now and then, but crashes and sleeps after 10mins of play. I am aware that dogs need exercise to tire out before you leave them.

We do also take him out to walks as well as the dog park where he absolutely loves playing with other dogs and runs around alot. When he is inside his crate, he gets all his favourite chew toys, a kong and a large bone. I do crate him when I am at home and where he can see/hear/sniff me and he is absolutely quietand even lies down and relaxes/naps. But when he can't sniff us or hear us, that's when he gets whiney. I have owned dogs before and in the past 3 days max was the longest on the whinging but I guess little Neo needs more work as it has been 5 weeks since we've had him.

We are working on potty training and he does know to eliminate outside on command (but we do get accidents from time to time inside...nothing too often.) so its not an issue of not knowing the right place to eliminate and besides, dogs do not like to soil their sleeping area as part of their instinct anyway.

Right now he is crated at home with me for 30mins now without a peep so hopefully that dog bone is doing the trick!! Do you guys give your dos a frozen kong during winter? My girlfriend reckons its too cold for him and he won't like it?? I think perhaps we just need to give him things to keep him REALLY busy as I would like to go out for longer than 30mins at a time. I'm hoping this is just a phase and me sticking with this over time, he will grow out of it??

Edited June 29, 2011 by neo2011

[Jumabaar]

No offence but a 13 week old is highly unlikely to have separation anxiety.

I'm a little confused about your post. Is the issue with the crate or when you leave the pup at home? What happens if you leave the pup uncrated?

Hmmm...So what do you think the problem is? WHy is he crying when we leave him? Its not fear of confinement as he will happily go in there now and sometimes (although rarely) when we are at home and he's sleeping in his crate, I open the door and he just stays in there anyway for a few more minutes. The crying is when he thinks we're leaving (or when we actually do leave) or even when crated in the next room while I'm at home. When I leave the house, I always crate him as it would be highly irresponsible to leave a pup uncrated and unsupervised with choking hazards. One time I left him for 10mins uncrated and he did what I expected...he peed and pooped everywhere out of nervousness/anxiety (even if I emptied him right before I leave). Also when he is uncrated and I go into another room with the door shut, he will cry and claw at the door and pee there as well. Sometimes if he's highly anxious in his crate when we leave, he will also soil his sleeping area and ignore all treats in there and also clawing at the walls.

Of course, we ignore all the crying and if excessive crying goes on for 10mins, I get my shoe and slam it against the house door to make a loud bang so he associates a negative thing with being whiney. We only EVER let him out when he's quiet and calm.

CW_EW, thanks for the input. I will try that and see how he goes. I do occasionally give him treats through the crate, but wasn't sure about the praising.

I've been told to let him out in the backyard when we leave so I might puppy proof the backyard and give that a try. Just wanted to see if there's anything else I can do to stop the whining and clawing.

Just out of interest what type of kelpie is this pup? From working or show lines? Also how was the pup kept at the breeders?

I tend to accept accidents at this age as just being a puppy- Some like to wee three times in a row, so even if you see them wee they might not have actually finished. Also when they go outside often they are so excited/distracted they forget to go. So it may be excitement rather than fear that is causing him to have accidents.

I would praise any quiet calm behaviour. ANY- so pop him in the crate and take a step away, reward that. Take two steps and reward that, and reward each step till you can get out the door. If he starts making noise I would quietly turn my back and wait for him to quiet. Kelpies are very good at self rewarding so you talking to him or looking at him reinforces the whining.

My puppies do cry when they first go into crates but I ignore them. If I think it is because they need to toilet then I carry them out see if they need to go then pop them back in the crate and wait them out. Generally as soon as they settle I let them out and give them a cuddle- so they work out that being calm is the best way to get my attention.

You have got a very smart dog so let him work out that being calm gets him more attention (even negative attention) from you than being naughty. He is a puppy who does not yet know the rules so you will have a period where he will try anything to get what he wants.

ETA- just saw your pup had never been out before.... This means that he has had no toilet training at ALL, so he does not realise that going to the toilet where ever he wants is wrong. It might be instinct not to soil their sleeping area, but if he has been doing it at the breeders then that is more important than instinct, so he will continue to do it.

Edited June 29, 2011 by ~Woofen~

[persephone]

So many questions - and so many possibilities

What were his living conditions at the breeders?

When was he separated from his mother/littermates?

What temperament do his parents have?

What does his day consist of? exercise/training/games/where he spends time ,etc

What is his general behaviour in the room with you , on leash, travelling in the car, when he's eating?

How are you toilet training him?

if excessive crying goes on for 10mins, I get my shoe and slam it against the house door to make a loud bang so he associates a negative thing with being whiney.

and this will be doing nothing to alleviate any anxiety he has I also like to teach any pups that bangs/crashes /machinery noises are something pleasant ... not to be scared of . I am not a fan of walking a dog who suddenly hits the deck or gets anxious when they hear a loud noise ;) Something to consider ..

You said his crate training went backwards when your partner became redundant.

Does the pup enjoy spending time with your partner?

Does you partner do some of the training with the pup?

Does your partner do the crate training too?

Does your partner feed the pup?

Edited June 29, 2011 by persephone

[neo2011]

To answer your questions...he's from working lines. And kept indoors by the breeder. He had terrible toilet training before as we were just constantly cleaning up his mess in the house and he thought eliminating where we couldn't see him was the right thing to do. But as mentioned in the original post, we've had him for 5 weeks and he's on a schedule to minimise any accidents. We take him out every 1.5-2hrs to toilet and he does try to hold it in when inside as he paces up and down or sits quietly at the back door waiting for us to open it (I wish he would be more vocal with that). So I wouldn't say he has absolutely no toilet training there. He also understands the command I give him to eliminate. I click and reward when he does his business at the right spot and if I catch him in the act of doing it inside, I just give him a firm "no" and take him outside.

He was separated from litter at 8 weeks

Tempremants of parents are good. During the time I was there, they were calm, but the mother was a little worried with us handling her pups so had to be locked outside.

Day consists of training (2 sessions of 10mins or before he gets too distracted), about 3 sessions of playtime as well as a walk or visit to dogpark. We also take him to 2 x training classes per week on top of that. In the 5 week's we've had him, he can sit, stay, beg, down, spin, shake, weave between our legs as well as hopping up on boxes when we give him the "up" command. He's great with obedience training.

General behaviour in my study room when I'm working is calm or asleep. Leash training he stays on my left inside the house, but when outside, he sometimes gets distracted which is expected with a puppy. I'm working on keeping him more focussed.

During the day he is uncrated and spends the time with me inside as I work and I try to crate him at least 1hr a day - sometimes in a separate room and sometimes in view of us so he feels like he's hanging out with us.

Neo loves spending time with both me or my partner and we both train him, but I have more patience and therefore do majority of his training. Because my partner doesn't work from home, I do most of the crate training. However on weekends, or before bedtime we both put him in his crate. We both feed him.

Also with the loud noise when he is whining excessively....this was a suggestion from another trainer and there was also a water squirt to the face of the puppy (I've never done that becuase if I'm there, he is quiet). I also used to give him a firm "quiet" but it seemed to make him more nervous and not wanting to go in his crate anymore so I just use the shoe to the wall/door method if it comes to it. I was also worried that with me giving him a verbal "quiet" might be giving him attention (even though it is negative attention) which is what he may want since ANY attention is better than none. That is another reason why I go with the shoe method...he has no idea where that sound came from.

I might also add that right now, he is crated with his crate in our bedroom at night and he can hold it throughout the night WITHOUT eliminating in his crate. He is also happy and totally quiet in there while we sleep (other than occasinal snoring!) Sometimes I wake up to take him outside to eliminate and he refuses to get out of his crate and rather sleep. Because of this, we decided to just leave him in there until the next morning.

I was thinking of crating him in a separate room overnight to get him used to being alone. Do you think this is a good idea?

[poodlefan]

We take him out every 1.5-2hrs to toilet and he does try to hold it in when inside as he paces up and down or sits quietly at the back door waiting for us to open it (I wish he would be more vocal with that).

IMO you're not taking him out often enough. Is he also taken out after when he wakes, eats, plays etc?

I was thinking of crating him in a separate room overnight to get him used to being alone. Do you think this is a good idea?

Not if you value a good night's sleep it isn't.

What I'm reading is a situation where the dog is rarely left alone and doesn't seem to spend any real time outside. Dogs have to learn to be bored and learn to be left. "Punishing" him for complaining about either of these things is not going to assist. For a start, you have to return to him to do it and that's rewarding the displays of behaviour.

I would start to feed him outside, spend time with him outside and then work up to leaving him outside with a tasty bone or similar.

I'd also be considering adding a dog door and teaching him to use it so that he's not dependent on you noticing to let him out.

What's the long term plan for leaving him alone for hours? Where will that occur. If the answer is "outside" then you should be working towards that now. At least outside if he toilets while stressed its not a problem.

What has this dog got to occupy himself other than you at the moment?

Edited June 29, 2011 by poodlefan

[neo2011]

IMO you're not taking him out often enough. Is he also taken out after when he wakes, eats, plays etc?

I read from several places that to work out the number of hours a pup can hold it in is to take the dog's age in months then add 1 to get the total number of hours. So in this case, my pup can take 4hrs. I think that's way too long so that's why we take him out every 1.5-2hrs. And yes, he gets taken out after eating, after play and before and after bed.

Not if you value a good night's sleep it isn't.

What I'm reading is a situation where the dog is rarely left alone and doesn't seem to spend any real time outside. Dogs have to learn to be bored and learn to be left. "Punishing" him for complaining about either of these things is not going to assist. For a start, you have to return to him to do it and that's rewarding the displays of behaviour.

I would start to feed him outside, spend time with him outside and then work up to leaving him outside with a tasty bone or similar.

I'd also be considering adding a dog door and teaching him to use it so that he's not dependent on you noticing to let him out.

What's the long term plan for leaving him alone for hours? Where will that occur. If the answer is "outside" then you should be working towards that now. At least outside if he toilets while stressed its not a problem.

What has this dog got to occupy himself other than you at the moment?

I think that's a very valid point and we do have to start leaving him outside. He does enjoy playing out there when its dry and not too cold (he's a bit of a wuss with the cold and maybe I'm worrying too much about him getting sick) but as soon as I go inside, he wants to come in as well and I can see him pacing up and down trying to find a way inside the house to be with us. He will also often start crying a little. We are going to get a doggie door in the future so he can come in and out. But yes, in the future if we are gone for long hours, he will be left outside in the backyard. He has a variety of toys to keep him busy including the Kong wobbler which he does enjoy on some occasions.

I also think that maybe me working from home and spending so much time with me might also be contributing to his problem of being left alone.

Edited June 29, 2011 by neo2011

[poodlefan]

What place of comfort and safety does he have in the back yard. Is there a warm kennel?

Can you post a pic of his current crate set up?

I would be making a point of leaving him alone every day, and leaving the house. I'd be investigating boredom busting toys and other activities to keep him occupied.

Edited June 29, 2011 by poodlefan

[Oskar & Zsa Zsa]

You have not said what you do when he has a little accident inside? I got this from someone else, but it seems to work. Mop up the liquid with a tissue or paper towel, take it and the puppy out onto the grass. Put the paper towel down, put the puppy down to sniff it, praise it when it does.

I did this with Oskar and he only has ever had two little mishaps, both of which were my fault for not waking up!!!

[neo2011]

Here's a pic of the current crate setup:

We usually put a bone and kong in there for him when he's crated. And there is no food bowl in there when he's left alone inside. As you can see, he's quite relaxed in there.

We don't have a kennel for him yet as he spends most of his time indoors and no extended periods of time outdoors unsupervised. But we will definetely get one this week and start feeding him outside as well as getting him used to being alone in the backyard.

[poodlefan]

That crate is HUGE!!! Can I suggest you divide it in half for now and toss a few cheap polar fleece blankets or towels in there for him to scruff up and make a nest with. It's openness doesn't make it very den like. I'd also be covering all of the front except for the gate.

I'd be tossing in a big fluffy toy too for 'company'.

Edited June 29, 2011 by poodlefan

[neo2011]

That crate is HUGE!!! Can I suggest you divide it in half for now and toss a few cheap polar fleece blankets or towels in there for him to scruff up and make a nest with. It's openness doesn't make it very den like. I'd also be covering all of the front except for the gate.

I'd be tossing in a big fluffy toy too for 'company'.

That picture actually does make the crate look huge!! Its actually not that big as it looks to be honest and he only has about 15cms left if he spreads right out. Also when he soils the area from anxiety, he does it on the padded mattress . I actually did cover the front, but one time when he was especially whiney, we came back home 2hrs later with the front cardboard clawed away and a big pile of cardboard pieces all over the place (not to mention a pile of other worse stuff).. I might change it to wood or something.

Oh, and he does get fluffy toys as he loves fluffy objects. We have a bag full of stuffed toys for him!

Edited June 29, 2011 by neo2011

[**Super_Dogs**]

My crate is very full of stuff for my puppy - so it is very cosy. I have vet bed as the base over, and pillow (human pillow) as a 'bed', a big stuffed toy, another smaller pillow and several other toys. She usually sleeps on the pillow or over/on the stuffed toy. When we go out I give her a pigs ear, and if she is going to be in there for a while other things to keep her ammussed, for example peanut butter smeared in a cup.

I like the idea of a blanket or towel to make a nest (which I have not done) as she often digs up the vet bed.

[poodlefan]

That crate is HUGE!!! Can I suggest you divide it in half for now and toss a few cheap polar fleece blankets or towels in there for him to scruff up and make a nest with. It's openness doesn't make it very den like. I'd also be covering all of the front except for the gate.

I'd be tossing in a big fluffy toy too for 'company'.

That picture actually does make the crate look huge!! Its actually not that big as it looks to be honest and he only has about 15cms left if he spreads right out. Also when he soils the area from anxiety, he does it on the padded mattress . I actually did cover the front, but one time when he was especially whiney, we came back home 2hrs later with the front cardboard clawed away and a big pile of cardboard pieces all over the place (not to mention a pile of other worse stuff).. I might change it to wood or something.

Oh, and he does get fluffy toys as he loves fluffy objects. We have a bag full of stuffed toys for him!

I'd be more inclined to cover it with a blanket. Buddy1 raises the use of vet bed.. as its fully machine washable, it would be a good way to cover the padded matress and its nice and cosy. A couple of the el cheapo polar fleece blankets and his favourite cuddly toy will up the "nest" factor.

Other than that, you just have to wait him out. Some puppys are real tanty chuckers and really work themselves up.

All you can do is use blankets to help dampen the noise, make sure he's comfortable and ignore the screaming. I'd leave home for increasing periods of time.