Halti Or Gentle Leader Head Collar

[Aidan3]

When I have recommended a head collar I also recommend a double-ended leash connected back to the flat collar. It is safer, and the handler (and dog) are less likely to become wholly dependent on the head collar.

Medication will always get a strong response, I wouldn't worry too much about that. Modern medications are not sedatives, tranqs, or dangerous experiments with brain chemistry.

[Chezy]

I have used halti for years now and love them . Often now I don't use them , but if mine start pulling and make my walk unpleasant then they get put on, so while i have them with me now I dont; use all the time . Quite a few people have changed to them because they see how good they work . Depends on the dog and the owner as with everything . I don't have reactive dogs though and would probably have a connection to flat collar as back up , they can get them of their nose, but i have never had a dog get it fully off , the bit round the back head stays on.

[PetSitters]

Enough Enough

Its amazing what a reaction i got just for just adding its for a reactive dog please put your opinions on that bit a side for a sec this dog will not be harmed in anyway and will not be put in a position it can be harmed.

I only wanted some opinions about head collars. It sounds like not many people like them - does anybody have any good reviews on them ? and in what situation would you use one ? obviously not for a reactive dog lol

Personally, I think the dog is in the wrong hands for successful rehabilitation and would be better off under Mark Singer who specialises in GSD behaviour with 30+ years experience. Other's I would recommend speaking with before heading down the drug and head collar path is Steve Courtney (K9Pro)and Julie Kopunovich (InlineK9).

In my job for what it's worth, I have a lot of GSD customers who's dogs I care for, some under rehabilitation routines for reactivity and the difference between the dog's under Mark, Steve and Julie's regimes compared with the drug and head collar regimes in my experience are the difference between chalk and cheese with the behavioral outcome achieved. I have seen GSD's zonked on drugs from vet behaviorists which wasn't a pretty sight and have also seen GSD's referred to Mark Singer from vets who strugggled to make head way in the rehabilitation process from misunderstanding the working drives the breed can exhibit.

"Never" from my experiences in the breed would I recommend vet behaviourist routines before seeking the opinions of the above mentioned and the like addressing any form of reactivity or aggression based behaviours from the results I have seen from both avenues of rehabilitation and the best results I have seen in the breed haven't been achieved with drugs and head collar regimes.

[Aidan3]

I have seen GSD's zonked on drugs from vet behaviorists which wasn't a pretty sight

Could you be more specific? Which drugs? Were the dogs taking any other drugs or remedies? What do you mean by "zonked"? How would you tell the difference between "zonked" and "calm"? Were these cases recent?

[Erny]

Aidan - I saw a client's GSD who'd been prescribed Chlomicalm. I couldn't see the dog's true behaviour when I saw it as all it wanted to do was sleep or drape itself on the floor.

This was within at least the last 12 months if not within the last 6 months.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Erny

[Brennan's Mum]

To be honest, for the first 2 years of my GSDs life I trained 'only' with Positive Reinforcement-- shunned all other methods and tools. Until, just after her 2nd Birthday in April this year I had to face the fact that I had a reactive dog who was not getting better, who I was having trouble controlling.

I had to swallow my pride and accept that my dog needed help, that despite having the right Positive Reinforcement books, having seen Positive Reinforcement behaviourists-- I needed to be open to another method or risk failing my dog. So I did, I hired some one who mentored under Steve Courtney(K9 Pro) and who is highly respected for her work with reactive dogs ( Jane Harper, Dogs On Track).

The change in my dog has been incredible. We use the Sporn Pack Leader head collar and it's been a wonderful addition to our tool box. It is the right tool for me and my dog at this moment.

I guess what I am trying to say is don't limit yourself or your dog to one way only. I did so for 2 years, and am now seeing better results in 2 weeks from a behaviourist who many of my former Positive Reinforcement friends told me is 'a ''bad'' trainer' (based on method).

I have also heard wonderful things from people on this forum who have trained with K9 Pro, Nehkbet (Inline K9) and Mark Singer-- all people who sought their help for a reactive dog.

[Aidan3]

Aidan - I saw a client's GSD who'd been prescribed Chlomicalm. I couldn't see the dog's true behaviour when I saw it as all it wanted to do was sleep or drape itself on the floor.

This was within at least the last 12 months if not within the last 6 months.

I'm not saying that somnolence isn't a known side-effect of modern psychopharmacology, but the evidence does not support that notion that serious side-effects (those that outweigh the benefits of medication) are common. In one quite large double-blind study (Fluoxetine in humans) the placebo group discontinued use due to side-effects equally as much as the treatment group! This suggests the possibility that the drug itself was not responsible for the reported side-effects.

PetSitters suggested "GSD's" (plural), but did not specify how many dogs, verify the actual effects, identify the medication prescribed or any other factors that might account for what she has implied. I'm not saying that she hasn't seen a dog or dogs who have suffered side effects from medication, but it's hard to accept such accounts over stringently collected and published data. To do so limits the valid and useful options available for treatment on the basis of what is probably a fallacy.

Clomicalm is usually prescribed for very serious stereotypies, some anxiety disorders, and self-injurious behaviour. Not all of these cases require medication as we know, but for those that do, it is literally a life-saver.

[PetSitters]

Aidan - I saw a client's GSD who'd been prescribed Chlomicalm. I couldn't see the dog's true behaviour when I saw it as all it wanted to do was sleep or drape itself on the floor.

This was within at least the last 12 months if not within the last 6 months.

That is the same experience I have seen Aidan along with bloodshot eyes and droopy eyelids, I am sorry, I can't recall the name of the drug though although explained as anti anxiety medication?

[PetSitters]

Aidan - I saw a client's GSD who'd been prescribed Chlomicalm. I couldn't see the dog's true behaviour when I saw it as all it wanted to do was sleep or drape itself on the floor.

This was within at least the last 12 months if not within the last 6 months.

I'm not saying that somnolence isn't a known side-effect of modern psychopharmacology, but the evidence does not support that notion that serious side-effects (those that outweigh the benefits of medication) are common. In one quite large double-blind study (Fluoxetine in humans) the placebo group discontinued use due to side-effects equally as much as the treatment group! This suggests the possibility that the drug itself was not responsible for the reported side-effects.

PetSitters suggested "GSD's" (plural), but did not specify how many dogs, verify the actual effects, identify the medication prescribed or any other factors that might account for what she has implied. I'm not saying that she hasn't seen a dog or dogs who have suffered side effects from medication, but it's hard to accept such accounts over stringently collected and published data. To do so limits the valid and useful options available for treatment on the basis of what is probably a fallacy.

Clomicalm is usually prescribed for very serious stereotypies, some anxiety disorders, and self-injurious behaviour. Not all of these cases require medication as we know, but for those that do, it is literally a life-saver.

Aidan, I have seen many vet behaviorists prescribe drugs for reactive dogs over the years, a bit like GP's prescribing anitbiotics for everything in that vein which in the dog boiled down to a lack of adequate training. Rectivity can have the top knocked off it with drugs, that is true, but for me personally with the normal type of reactivity that is common in some GSD's which I amount to more a genetic drive imbalance in the dog, drug rehabilitation is not the path I would travel first and foremost to correct the behaviour over training unless there was a confirmed diagnosed medical condition requiring drug treatment regimes.

GSD's are a working breed and sometimes kept as pets in some dogs, working drives are misunderstood and mismanaged creating poor behaviours which vet behaviourists having limited experience with working drives and common drive imbalances in the breed see a behaviour entirely different than an experienced K9 trainer who works and trains the breed knowing the traits inside and out is what I am saying. My first port of call with behavioural and reactivity issues with a GSD is a good K9 trainer who understands them thoroughly who is best IMHO to determine if there is something unusual with the dog to require the assistance of vet behaviourist.

[Aidan3]

Rectivity can have the top knocked off it with drugs, that is true, but for me personally with the normal type of reactivity that is common in some GSD's which I amount to more a genetic drive imbalance in the dog, drug rehabilitation is not the path I would travel first and foremost to correct the behaviour over training

So you suspect a biological problem (genetics) and you think that will respond better to training than medication? Maybe, it seems a bit counter-intuitive though.

unless there was a confirmed diagnosed medical condition requiring drug treatment regimes.

There are a number of medical conditions which can be tested for, but you cannot test for "low brain serotonin". You can wait until the dog dies, remove his brain, liquify it and measure serotonin - but by then it's too late to medicate! The decision to medicate is based mostly on behavioural symptoms, followed by response to medication post-treatment.

This is the silly part about this debate. If there are side-effects that outweigh the benefit of medication, you taper-off and discontinue drug therapy. If there are not, you have a happier, more relaxed dog and your problem is solved. Any behaviour modification becomes much, much easier and more likely to remain effective post-treatment.

If the dog is simply lacking exercise, training and mental stimulation - then this is usually fairly easily remedied. I have no doubt that there are veterinary behaviourists out there who just blindly write scripts for drugs that dogs don't need without addressing more pressing matters but I think the incidence of this is HIGHLY over-stated. As is the incidence of veterinary behaviourists who have not worked with, and do not understand GSDs and other working dogs. They are one of the most popular breeds in this country. They are massively over-represented in presentations to veterinary behaviourists, behaviourists and dog trainers. They are far from a misunderstood and unknown quantity!

[Alasse]

I just bought a new halti for my GSD, i took her in and got her fitted as i dont think her old one fit correctly, and boy was i right. The newer haltis have some improvements i must say. The strap from the halti to the collar for 1 and the padded noseband is another.

My girl is reactive, major excitement at other dogs, very high prey drive, so if anything runs she want to chase *L* I do not notice any jerking to her neck though from using a halti. I do very similar to the lady in the vid above, the halti tightens until she is sitting calmy then relaxed rewarding the desired behaviour.

Walking has become a joy with the halti.

She will walk in a check chain, but due to arm surgery i cant hold her if she goes to take off, checking constaly can be uncomfortable for me also. For me the halti has been a godsend

Edited June 29, 2011 by Alasse

[Cairo1]

I have only just come upon this thread and I thought it was interesting reading. I have a very large 10 month old German Shepherd boy and I mean LARGE. I also have a neck problem so I have elected to walk him in a halti (a Black Dog one). It is great for every day walking but I have noticed that it increases the level of frustration when meeting other dogs. I have found it to be completely counter productive in relation to socialisation. So, bad neck or not, when I am introducing him to any dog, I take the halti off. In a general sense though, I will continue to use it together with positive reinforcement until I know that he will not pull. So far it's working. :D

Cairo1

[Nekhbet]

dangerous experiments with brain chemistry.

any drug that aims to alter the mental state of the animal will muck around with the physiology and have further reaching effects then just the period of medication. I dont care how modern they are. They're an all too common tool by some veterinary behaviourists who have the power to prescribe. In some cases, yes very worthwhile. But a lot of the time they replace true hard work and hands on experience.

Never seen a medicated animal that you could consider it being an improvement. More like a bandaid.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Nekhbet

[JulesP]

Never seen a medicated animal that you could consider it being an improvement. More like a bandaid.

I have. A little puppy that looked well depressed. It moved all hunched up like it was a really, really old dog. Wouldn't interact with the other dogs. Wouldn't do much of anything. Got put on prozac. What a difference. Tail up, eyes bright and a spring in its step. Was very interesting to see.

[PetSitters]

Aidan2' timestamp='1309328981' post='5380698']

If the dog is simply lacking exercise, training and mental stimulation - then this is usually fairly easily remedied. I have no doubt that there are veterinary behaviourists out there who just blindly write scripts for drugs that dogs don't need without addressing more pressing matters but I think the incidence of this is HIGHLY over-stated. As is the incidence of veterinary behaviourists who have not worked with, and do not understand GSDs and other working dogs. They are one of the most popular breeds in this country. They are massively over-represented in presentations to veterinary behaviourists, behaviourists and dog trainers. They are far from a misunderstood and unknown quantity!

Aidan, what I have found over the years is that GSD's with behavioural issues have a high incidence of trainer swapping where the owners of these dogs have been to several trainers and behaviourists to sort particular problems which indicates to me that plenty in the field do not not understand the breed and traits particularly well at all?. I don't think for a second because someone is a vet behaviourist or involved in dog training that it automatically qualifies them with working dog experience or knowledge of the best approach to take with behavioral rehabilitation and depends on the person themselves IMHO. The OP for example said she wouldn't touch Mark Singer with a 10 foot pole or something to that effect, a guy who has worked and trained GSD's for 30+ years and favours a drug routine instead

My feeling is that Mark Singer would run rings around a vet behaviourist with GSD behavioural issues to reach a desired goal and unless a trainer of Mark's calibre and breed knowledge recommended a vet behaviourist after assessing the dog, I personally wouldn't be confident that the vet behaviorist route is the right path to take. Just my opinion on the situation for what it's worth

[Nekhbet]

Prozac is a selective seartonin reuptake inhibitor. It prevents the presynapric cells from mopping up seratonin. Did the pup ever come off it or did it stay on it long term?

Also what behaviour modification did they try before Prozac? Considering its one of the most overused drugs for humans did they manage to pull the pup off and maintain the happy behaviour or was it a long term case?

[Nekhbet]

Petsitters I think it comes down to too many people just dont understand dogs. A dog is a dog, but a popular working breed with sometimes a good dose of weak nerve are going to be seen more often. We want to be the dogs friend more then we want to be the dogs owner because that is a dirty word these days.

They are not a breed that should be as popular as they are but the general public only know of a handfull of purebreds hence keep channeling themselves too them despite whether they are suitable or not.

[PetSitters]

Petsitters I think it comes down to too many people just dont understand dogs. A dog is a dog, but a popular working breed with sometimes a good dose of weak nerve are going to be seen more often. We want to be the dogs friend more then we want to be the dogs owner because that is a dirty word these days.

They are not a breed that should be as popular as they are but the general public only know of a handfull of purebreds hence keep channeling themselves too them despite whether they are suitable or not.

I am not a behaviourist and don't claim to be, plenty for me to learn in that area, but I have obedience trained and worked in animal care for 27 years and have 2 GSD's of my own, but some of the regimes I see prescribed for behavioural rehabilitation in certain dogs to me is off the planet for what is trying to be achieved and the reasoning behind the system prescribed after working with and assessing the dog myself is more left of centre IMHO

[Online Pets]

Neither, Sporn Head Halter has control from the back, its much better than both the two mentioned above

Yeah i agree the Sporn Halters are a much better version but as stated may not be suitable for this particular issue

[persephone]

I think it comes down to too many people just dont understand dogs. A dog is a dog, but a popular working breed with sometimes a good dose of weak nerve are going to be seen more often. We want to be the dogs friend more then we want to be the dogs owner because that is a dirty word these days.