Uk Charity Limits Care To 1 Pedigree Pet Per Family

[poodlefan]

You're now narrowing the scope of the discussion to "inbreeding practices". The topic of this thread was the fact that purebred dogs are unhealthy by definition of their pedigree status alone.

Are you telling me that all knowledgeable Saluki people want to crossbreed their dogs? I'd have thought most would regard that proposal as heresy. Advocacy of lowering COI's is not the same as advocating crossbreeding.

The aim of the cangen list is to save purebred dogs.

How the hell do you do that by routinely and universally crossbreeding them?

[shortstep]

And while we're at it, you might want to talk to the Saluki people about their dogs, who while being the oldest recognised purebred with the longest closed gene pool are among the healthiest purebred dogs around. Lets see Mr Burke explain that too.

Join the Orgcangen Genetics list where there are several Phd's in sceince who also breed native sighthounds and make your comments. Let them discuss it with you in detail, they are experts on the breeds, their heritage and use and their breeding history and they strongly oppose the current inbreeding pratices in kennel club purebred dogs.

Have a chat with this fellow on inbreeding in salukies, Dr John Burchard, considered won the worlds experts on salukies , health and dog breeding. Look up some of his talks or work on breeding sight hounds and inbreeding. I listen very carefully to this fellow BTW.

http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/

http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/belkin.htm

http://homepage.mac.com/puggiq/V11N2/V11,N2Gentrification.html

His work on diversitiy was even mentioned in some work being done on poodles in the same area of concern

http://www.standardpoodleproject.com/Notes%20on%20Viability%20of%20Breeds.pdf

You're now narrowing the scope of the discussion to "inbreeding practices". The topic of this thread was the fact that purebred dogs are unhealthy by definition of their pedigree status alone.

You brought up saluki, what I am telling you is to join the group and talk about breeding dogs, including what made the saluki what it is today and that was certainly not the kennel club.

My understanding is the desert sight hound have been bred well, forever, and outside of any kennel club, with no closed stud book and no rules about cross breeding, and they did cross to other sight hounds if they want to and all based on performance qualities not show ring.

They have one of the most diverse gene pools in dogs, directly related to this long history and are a direct result of these breeding practices. Sso yes they are a very good example of how dogs can be bred, and breed with very different selection methods from the the kennel club and end up with a simple wonderful breed.

Your conversations will not be limited to inbreeding on this chat group, they will include closed stud book, popular sire syndrom, new concepts on how to have breeds with out inbreeding and closed stud book, advantage of breeding for fit for function over show ring, latest reserch and most important lots of ideas on how to bring our breeds into the future. They even try to make a clear distinction between animal rights and animal welfare. Not a lot of "it is the other guys fault" going on, but still very interesting.

[poodlefan]

Your conversations will not be limited to inbreeding on this chat group, they will include closed stud book, popular sire syndrom, new concepts on how to have breeds with out inbreeding and closed stud book, advantage of breeding for fit for function over show ring, latest reserch and most important lots of ideas on how to bring our breeds into the future. They even try to make a clear distinction between animal rights and animal welfare. Not a lot of "it is the other guys fault" going on, but still very interesting.

My guess is not a lot of "all purebred dogs have inheritable health issues" talk either. ;) What an interesting concept it is to see people WITHIN a breed identify issues and tackle them. Isn't that what I've been advocating from the get go in this thread?

[shortstep]

You're now narrowing the scope of the discussion to "inbreeding practices". The topic of this thread was the fact that purebred dogs are unhealthy by definition of their pedigree status alone.

Are you telling me that all knowledgeable Saluki people want to crossbreed their dogs? I'd have thought most would regard that proposal as heresy. Advocacy of lowering COI's is not the same as advocating crossbreeding.

The aim of the cangen list is to save purebred dogs.

How the hell do you do that by routinely and universally crossbreeding them?

Well that is the best question I have heard on here for a long time and what an interesting and huge topic it is.

Firstly lets be clear that there are other definitions of 'breed' that do not include having to breed within a closed gene pool of dogs that all related and all come from a very few ancestors.

As just one example, working breeds.

If you one can free their mind to work outside of those rules, then the sky really is the limit. The saluki is an excellent example, but so are most working sheep dogs like kelpies, border collie (US working registry is the largest breed club for border collies in the world) or the Canaan dog (at least prior to going into the kennel club), many of the working sled dog like the Alaskan husky or the Siberians outside of the kennel club, and the working Jack Russell as bred in the working registries (the US club is the largest register for jacks in the world) and several other breeds of working terriers now being bred outside the kennel club so they can do the type of breeding they need to do to improve working ability. All of these dogs are clearly breeds, and in fact most kennel clubs dogs would have started from dogs taken from these gene pools. Yet some kennel club breeders would not consider these dogs breeds until the show breeder has 'developed' them into a show dog. Got to let those thoughts go, as they say 'the shows over'.

It is detrimental to kennel club dogs to shut off these dogs/genes. The UK KC has now opened the stud books, this means that a working border collie from Australia can enter their gene pool, it means a saluki in the desert holding a rabbit under it's feet (just some dramatics lol) can enter the Uk gene pool, it means a Siberian raised in Siberia by Siberians who's family has used sibs for as long as their history is told, can actually enter the kennel club gene pool, what a shocker! And might I add, if that would have happened 20 odd years ago, we might not be here talking about this today (if you have not follow the history, read Jeffery Brag, Purebred dogs into the 21 century). Just something to think about. LOL Oh to go back and change the past.

Edited July 1, 2011 by shortstep

[shortstep]

Your conversations will not be limited to inbreeding on this chat group, they will include closed stud book, popular sire syndrom, new concepts on how to have breeds with out inbreeding and closed stud book, advantage of breeding for fit for function over show ring, latest reserch and most important lots of ideas on how to bring our breeds into the future. They even try to make a clear distinction between animal rights and animal welfare. Not a lot of "it is the other guys fault" going on, but still very interesting.

My guess is not a lot of "all purebred dogs have inheritable health issues" talk either. ;) What an interesting concept it is to see people WITHIN a breed identify issues and tackle them. Isn't that what I've been advocating from the get go in this thread?

The group was started by someone who was very worried about the future of poodles related to high inbreeing levels, popular sire, closed stud books and so forth. Though he is gone not, you still might enjoy it.

Edited July 1, 2011 by shortstep

[SkySoaringMagpie]

You know what I think the single biggest factor is in the health of the aboriginal sighthounds? It is that the environment is absolutely ruthless, physically and culturally. If a dog doesn't make the grade it is usually disposed with or dies. From the moment many dogs hit the dirt (rather than a nice bit of vet bed), most are living a much harder life with much greater demands than Western dogs ever will. I don't think that kind of cultural shift is the kind of thing the Jemima Harrisons of the world have in mind.

[poodlefan]

The group was started by someone who was very worried about the future of poodles related to high inbreeing levels, popular sire, closed stud books and so forth. Though he is gone not, you still might enjoy it.

Only if the solution settled on wasn't crossbreeding them (and I don't think it was). Anyone who thinks the health issues confronting pedigree poodles have been aleviated in any way by the creation of oodles is sadly deluded. I think there's probably evidence to suggest that its created a new range of issues for those dogs. I've never read anything about the kind of skin allergies in purebred poodles that seem to confront their crosses. And heaven knows breeding a big dog to a big dog doesn't resolve hip and elbow issues especially when no one's scoring the parent dogs. Ditto for PRA when crossing two affected breeds.

[poodlefan]

You know what I think the single biggest factor is in the health of the aboriginal sighthounds? It is that the environment is absolutely ruthless, physically and culturally. If a dog doesn't make the grade it is usually disposed with or dies. From the moment many dogs hit the dirt (rather than a nice bit of vet bed), most are living a much harder life with much greater demands than Western dogs ever will. I don't think that kind of cultural shift is the kind of thing the Jemima Harrisons of the world have in mind.

The uproar created by any discussion of the concept of breeders culling pups supports your assertion.

[shortstep]

My guess is not a lot of "all purebred dogs have inheritable health issues" talk either. ;) What an interesting concept it is to see people WITHIN a breed identify issues and tackle them. Isn't that what I've been advocating from the get go in this thread?

I wanted to address this separately.

Good breeding practices and options should prevent problems and that is the goal in my mind for the future of dog breeding.

I do not see the need to make changes only directly at one breed at at time and only that breed.

They should be applied across all breeds.

Prevention of future problems is vital before they reach crisis.

While this may indeed help to save some breeds that have reached crisis point, the bigger idea is to prevent crisis from happening in any breed.

An example of this in practice is how The Kennel Club has opened the stud book to all breeds, not just breeds in crisis.

So no, this is not about treating a breed in crisis. This is about treating a whole system that is is crisis. By treating the system, you will then give the breeders the tools they need to keep their breeds vital into the future.

[RallyValley]

My guess is not a lot of "all purebred dogs have inheritable health issues" talk either. ;) What an interesting concept it is to see people WITHIN a breed identify issues and tackle them. Isn't that what I've been advocating from the get go in this thread?

I wanted to address this separately.

Good breeding practices and options should prevent problems and that is the goal in my mind for the future of dog breeding.

I do not see the need to make changes only directly at one breed at at time and only that breed.

They should be applied across all breeds.

Prevention of future problems is vital before they reach crisis.

While this may indeed help to save some breeds that have reached crisis point, the bigger idea is to prevent crisis from happening in any breed.

An example of this in practice is how The Kennel Club has opened the stud book to all breeds, not just breeds in crisis.

So no, this is not about treating a breed in crisis. This is about treating a whole system that is is crisis. By treating the system, you will then give the breeders the tools they need to keep their breeds vital into the future.

They may have opened the stud book but show me one established breeder who is willing to use one of these 'new' dogs.

[shortstep]

My guess is not a lot of "all purebred dogs have inheritable health issues" talk either. ;) What an interesting concept it is to see people WITHIN a breed identify issues and tackle them. Isn't that what I've been advocating from the get go in this thread?

I wanted to address this separately.

Good breeding practices and options should prevent problems and that is the goal in my mind for the future of dog breeding.

I do not see the need to make changes only directly at one breed at at time and only that breed.

They should be applied across all breeds.

Prevention of future problems is vital before they reach crisis.

While this may indeed help to save some breeds that have reached crisis point, the bigger idea is to prevent crisis from happening in any breed.

An example of this in practice is how The Kennel Club has opened the stud book to all breeds, not just breeds in crisis.

So no, this is not about treating a breed in crisis. This is about treating a whole system that is is crisis. By treating the system, you will then give the breeders the tools they need to keep their breeds vital into the future.

They may have opened the stud book but show me one established breeder who is willing to use one of these 'new' dogs.

Well that may well be true and I would not be surprised. But I believe there is a whole new generation of breeders today and more inthe future that are ready for change. The future of dog breeds may well end up in their hands. Change is not always easy for everyone.

[poodlefan]

Shortstep:

It is detrimental to kennel club dogs to shut off these dogs/genes. The UK KC has now opened the stud books, this means that a working border collie from Australia can enter their gene pool, it means a saluki in the desert holding a rabbit under it's feet (just some dramatics lol) can enter the Uk gene pool, it means a Siberian raised in Siberia by Siberians who's family has used sibs for as long as their history is told, can actually enter the kennel club gene pool, what a shocker! And might I add, if that would have happened 20 odd years ago, we might not be here talking about this today (if you have not follow the history, read Jeffery Brag, Purebred dogs into the 21 century). Just something to think about. LOL Oh to go back and change the past.

Australia already has methods of obtaining such 'native' dogs registered in order that they may be bred to ANKC registered dogs. The Basenji is a case in point. AKC registered Basenji breeders have been visiting Africa to obtain dogs, returning to the USA and having them placed on the register. The fact that Ms Harrison isn't screaming about it in the UK doesn't mean that all stud books are 'closed' in the manner you suggest. And indeed, if you want to find more examples of Canine Control sanctioned outcrossing of breeds they exist.

SSM has a desert bred Saluki.. and sh's ANKC recognised and registered.

Edited July 1, 2011 by poodlefan

[shortstep]

Shortstep:

It is detrimental to kennel club dogs to shut off these dogs/genes. The UK KC has now opened the stud books, this means that a working border collie from Australia can enter their gene pool, it means a saluki in the desert holding a rabbit under it's feet (just some dramatics lol) can enter the Uk gene pool, it means a Siberian raised in Siberia by Siberians who's family has used sibs for as long as their history is told, can actually enter the kennel club gene pool, what a shocker! And might I add, if that would have happened 20 odd years ago, we might not be here talking about this today (if you have not follow the history, read Jeffery Brag, Purebred dogs into the 21 century). Just something to think about. LOL Oh to go back and change the past.

Australia already has methods of obtaining such 'native' dogs registered in order that they may be bred to ANKC registered dogs. The Basenji is a case in point. AKC registered Basenji breeders have been visiting Africa to obtain dogs, returning to the USA and having them placed on the register. The fact that Ms Harrison isn't screaming about it in the UK doesn't mean that all stud books are 'closed' in the manner you suggest. And indeed, if you want to find more examples of Canine Control sanctioned outcrossing of breeds they exist.

SSM has a desert bred Saluki.. and sh's ANKC recognised and registered.

No that is not how works, it is not a breed driven action.

See what it means is the stud book for all breeds is open. All breeds, not just a breed where the parent club wants to do it.

For exmaple, it would allow a working kelpie taken from a gene pool of 10's of thosands of kelpies outside the kennel club and bring it inoot the kennel club where there is a tiny closely inbred gene pool. And the kelpie breed club is not who makes this descions, and cannot stop it. This would be across the board for all breeds. Read the Uk rules. I am fairly sure this will be happening here pretty soon.

I am so surprised that folks here to not see the real implications of this happening in the UK, it really is the most radical thing to happen in kennel club dog breeding since kennel clubs began. I think it is a direct reflection that change is no longer an option, the tools are being put into place now. If the breeders fail to use them and make changes, then laws will be put into place to force their use or the breeder can not breed.

Edited July 1, 2011 by shortstep

[RallyValley]

How does that work for other breeds though? For example Flat Coated and Chesapeake Bay Retrievers are both dual purpose dogs, they don't have 'native populations' that aren't registered or 'sporting strains' that aren't registered. How will this change anything for these breeds?

[poodlefan]

For exmaple, it would allow a working kelpie taken from a gene pool of 10's of thosands of kelpies outside the kennel club and bring it inoot the kennel club where there is a tiny closely inbred gene pool. And the kelpie breed club is not who makes this descions, and cannot stop it. This would be across the board for all breeds. Read the Uk rules. I am fairly sure this will be happening here pretty soon.

I am so surprised that folks here to not see the real implications of this happening in the UK, it really is the most radical thing to happen in kennel club dog breeding since kenel clubs began. I think it is a dir4ect reflection that change is not a option, the tools are being put into place now. If the breeders fail to use them and make changes, then laws will be put into place to force their use or the breeder can not breed.

1. Not all breeds have "tiny, closely inbred gene pools". Yet another purebred denigrating generalisation from you founded on misinformation.

2. Not all breeds have tens of thousands of dogs existing outside the registered stock. How will this help them?

3. How is taking a 'working Basenji" from the Congo and adding it to the Basenji stud book, any different to your Kelpie example. That is happening now.

I fail to see the "real implications" of what is happening in the UK applying to every breed. The simple reason for that is they won't. I doubt anyone is going to stumble across 10's of thousands of native working Poodles any time soon.

I don't have an issue with selective outcrossing or introduction of non-registered dogs to assist breeds where that is required. The key word, however, is "assist". Not all breeds require such assistance and not all breeds have it as an option.

Stop generalising the approach taken in one breed to all breeds and much of my issue with your argument will disappear.

And

[shortstep]

How does that work for other breeds though? For example Flat Coated and Chesapeake Bay Retrievers are both dual purpose dogs, they don't have 'native populations' that aren't registered or 'sporting strains' that aren't registered. How will this change anything for these breeds?

Well there was recent example prior to this new open stud book. Several corgi (not sure which one) owners decided that breed was in trouble as it had been listed as an endangered breed, something like only around 20 pups a year were being born and the show breeders would only sell them desexed unless you were an established show breeder, so only 1 of 2 of those 20 actually reentered the fast dwindling KC population each year.

They decided they wanted to save the breed and return the breed back to it's foundations a a working breed not a show dog. One fellow grew up with them on dairy farms ors some such thing. So they left the kennel club, imported dogs from all over and found other dogs being bred not registered in the kennel club and they started their own registry. Health testing was mandated. In a couple of years they now have a larger and more diverse gene pool and more pups per year born and reentering the gene pool than the kennel club breeders. They are also using many of the dogs to work cattle, holding fun days, all of which is bringing in many new members who also want to see the breed work and help to save it from extinction. That is an open stud book where the tools they need to do what they need to can be done. it would not be possible, but I do not think likely, that if the kennel club folks now decided they wanted to increase their gene pool, then these dogs could come in. I for some reason do not think the folks outside the KC now would want to return but I could be wrong.

TW this is all distant memory obtained by reading posts on a chat group, which may be distorted, so don't quote me.

There are examples all over the place of breeds being bred outside the kennel club.

Edited July 1, 2011 by shortstep

[shortstep]

For exmaple, it would allow a working kelpie taken from a gene pool of 10's of thosands of kelpies outside the kennel club and bring it inoot the kennel club where there is a tiny closely inbred gene pool. And the kelpie breed club is not who makes this descions, and cannot stop it. This would be across the board for all breeds. Read the Uk rules. I am fairly sure this will be happening here pretty soon.

I am so surprised that folks here to not see the real implications of this happening in the UK, it really is the most radical thing to happen in kennel club dog breeding since kenel clubs began. I think it is a dir4ect reflection that change is not a option, the tools are being put into place now. If the breeders fail to use them and make changes, then laws will be put into place to force their use or the breeder can not breed.

1. Not all breeds have "tiny, closely inbred gene pools". Yet another purebred denigrating generalisation from you founded on misinformation.

2. Not all breeds have tens of thousands of dogs existing outside the registered stock. How will this help them?

3. How is taking a 'working Basenji" from the Congo and adding it to the Basenji stud book, any different to your Kelpie example. That is happening now.

I fail to see the "real implications" of what is happening in the UK applying to every breed. The simple reason for that is they won't. I doubt anyone is going to stumble across 10's of thousands of native working Poodles any time soon.

I don't have an issue with selective outcrossing or introduction of non-registered dogs to assist breeds where that is required. The key word, however, is "assist". Not all breeds require such assistance and not all breeds have it as an option.

Stop generalising the approach taken in one breed to all breeds and much of my issue with your argument will disappear.

And

I wanted to address this separately.

Good breeding practices and options should prevent problems and that is the goal in my mind for the future of dog breeding.

I do not see the need to make changes only directly at one breed at at time and only that breed.

They should be applied across all breeds.

Prevention of future problems is vital before they reach crisis.

While this may indeed help to save some breeds that have reached crisis point, the bigger idea is to prevent crisis from happening in any breed.

An example of this in practice is how The Kennel Club has opened the stud book to all breeds, not just breeds in crisis.

So no, this is not about treating a breed in crisis. This is about treating a whole system that is is crisis. By treating the system, you will then give the breeders the tools they need to keep their breeds vital into the future.

[poodlefan]

The Flatcoated Retriever stud book, to the best of my knowledge, was reopened after WWII due allow out crossing to Golden Retrievers due to the very low FCR numbers remaining. Skyehaven and other FCR owners would know for sure.

This, I believe, is the reason yellow FCR's continue to crop up in some litters.

Can I just point out Shortstep, that none of the examples you've given to increase gene pools involve crossbreeding dogs. In every case, the dogs have been the same breed, but not registered. Finding working populations of an existing breed and adding them to the stud book is not revolutionary.. its been going on for years.

And in every case, I'm guessing those dogs outside the register and allowed onto the stud books would then be considered as an unhealthy purebreds by the charity organisation referred to in your first post. Yay, NOT.

Edited July 1, 2011 by poodlefan

[moosmum]

I have seen people here using horses as examples of inbreeding.Race horses tracing back to 4 known sires.

You forget that tho' 4 sires may be in all pedigrees,mares have come from else where and there is an enormous gene pool where horses not up to scratch in testing performance conditions are discarded.

Likewise,arabian horses are said according to ledgend to have decended from 5 blue mares.Grey is pretty dominant colour in horses yet all arabs are not grey, outside horses have been used (unless these 5 mares were cloned)and purity can't be guaranteed any further than pedigrees can be traced.

[poodlefan]

I have seen people here using horses as examples of inbreeding.Race horses tracing back to 4 known sires.

You forget that tho' 4 sires may be in all pedigrees,mares have come from else where and there is an enormous gene pool where horses not up to scratch in testing performance conditions are discarded.

Likewise,arabian horses are said according to ledgend to have decended from 5 blue mares.Grey is pretty dominant colour in horses yet all arabs are not grey, outside horses have been used (unless these 5 mares were cloned)and purity can't be guaranteed any further than pedigrees can be traced.

How long has the Thoroughbred stud book been closed MM?

ETA: I'll answer my own question:

Only thoroughbreds can be entered into a Stud Book, and this can only happen if their parents were in a recognised Stud Book, and this must be the case for eight consecutive generations. Therefore, a thoroughbred has at least 255 ancestors of thoroughbred origin in those eight generations. All thoroughbreds in the Australian Stud Book trace directly back to ancestors in the General Stud Book of England, published in 1808, or accepted colonial mares of Australian and New Zealand origin. The first Australian Stud Book was published in 1878.

Edited July 1, 2011 by poodlefan