Breeding For Aggression

[poodlefan]

How does a guard dog guard if no humans are around to 'command' it?? The answer is simple - by instinct. That will involve a genetic predisposition to be DA or HA in most cases.

But what is a guard dog guarding when it is clearly off its own property?

I think the instinct to guard territory is strong in some breeds. It's instinct and it results in DA or HA. It could be argued that this aggression is 'provoked', and is desirable in some situations. Especially if the dog first tries to warn the intruder to back off in an effort to avoid escalating the aggression.

I posted up a 'hypothetical test' to test for aggression that goes beyond any normal territorial guarding. They are the dogs I am really scared of. Those dogs have different rules in their head about why they have to be aggressive.

Who knows?

But surely the more relevant issue what the dog is doing off its property and not under its owner's control.I'm sure not going to have an issue with a dog that takes a piece out of someone that assaults its owner of its own property and that would fail your proposed aggression test Greytmate.

We don't need a bunch of breed specific bans and licenses to deal with the issue of dangerous dogs. We simply need effective enforcement of existing dangerous dog legislation. Furthermore, potentially an individual of ANY breed can pose a risk to the community - how do breed bans and licenses deal with that?

Lets not through the baby out with the bath water or start meddling with temperaments and drives without knowing the consequences. Reduce the 'nerve' and confidence in some breeds and you end up with dogs that can easily be provoked into fear based aggression..

[WreckitWhippet]

How does a guard dog guard if no humans are around to 'command' it?? The answer is simple - by instinct. That will involve a genetic predisposition to be DA or HA in most cases.

But what is a guard dog guarding when it is clearly off its own property?

I think the instinct to guard territory is strong in some breeds. It's instinct and it results in DA or HA. It could be argued that this aggression is 'provoked', and is desirable in some situations. Especially if the dog first tries to warn the intruder to back off in an effort to avoid escalating the aggression.

I posted up a 'hypothetical test' to test for aggression that goes beyond any normal territorial guarding. They are the dogs I am really scared of. Those dogs have different rules in their head about why they have to be aggressive.

Who knows?

But surely the more relevant issue what the dog is doing off its property and not under its owner's control.I'm sure not going to have an issue with a dog that takes a piece out of someone that assaults its owner of its own property and that would fail your proposed aggression test Greytmate.

We don't need a bunch of breed specific bans and licenses to deal with the issue of dangerous dogs. We simply need effective enforcement of existing dangerous dog legislation. Furthermore, potentially an individual of ANY breed can pose a risk to the community - how do breed bans and licenses deal with that?

Lets not through the baby out with the bath water or start meddling with temperaments and drives without knowing the consequences. Reduce the 'nerve' and confidence in some breeds and you end up with dogs that can easily be provoked into fear based aggression..

Yep and I think one of the most popular breeds in the country, along with it's owners would be the first to suffer if that were the case.

Water down " bold & fearless" and you won't be left with totally reliable.

[Greytmate]

But surely the more relevant issue what the dog is doing off its property and not under its owner's control.I'm sure not going to have an issue with a dog that takes a piece out of someone that assaults its owner of its own property and that would fail your proposed aggression test Greytmate.

Why would it fail? The hypothetical test is to determine whether the aggression is 'provoked' or not. It is not a test of what a dog would do if its owner was assaulted. It is a test to see what a dog will do when approached in a way that does not pose any (actual) threat to dog or owner.

There are dogs out there in our community now being used for breeding that would fail a test like this. The owners see the trait as desirable, and in my opinion are are totally misinterpreting standards.

I also think it's a mistake to think that we should alter a breed in Australia and that it can still be the same breed. Our dogs in the country are mostly a small part of a huge gene pool, and it's not up to us to try to make breeds 'softer' than they should be.

But there is clearly no need in Australia for dogs like Filas. And what some GSD breeders are supposedly breeding for in SA in my opinion is a hugely dangerous and harmful misinterpretation of the standard.

[jacqui835]

see I think thats the difference, theres doing your job on command, or doing your job because you are aggressive, my partners family had a Rottie, who was a highly trained guard dog, he was also used as the walk by dog for training other dogs because he would not react even if they were going nuts, he was highly responsive to his families cues, he would remain silent when asked or bark loudly & seemingly ferociously if asked, but he was the biggest pooch you'd ever meet, was great with the kids, was good with other animals & dogs. but he was trained & ived with a kind & loving family. again it comes down to the human factor..

How does a guard dog guard if no humans are around to 'command' it?? The answer is simple - by instinct. That will involve a genetic predisposition to be DA or HA in most cases.

I don't have an issue with dogs that are prepared to be DA or HA as part of their 'jobs' if the job is lawful.

What I do have an issue with is people who get such dogs and fail to ensure that they don't become a danger to the community through poor management.

Lets not blame such dogs for the fact that their owners are irresponsible, ignorant or criminal.

Let me tell you, if I lived in some of the world's most dangerous places, I'd own a Fila in a heartbeat. South Africa would be a case in point. If I lived in Johannesburg I'd probably have several. I'd want people to think twice about the dogs before entering my home and I'd be happy for the dog to step up to protect house or family.

Such dogs are only an issue when they're placed in the wrong home.

This exactly. I own a doberman and I love that he's instinctually protective. I go bike riding relatively late at night even though I probably shouldn't (but what else can you do when you have an energetic dog and work full time??) Point is though, some people may have seen an old thread about mine when 2 men stood in front of me blocking the bike track, my dog growled at them and they jumped away - we rode home safely. Had he been a small dog, or a large dog who hid behind me, well who knows what would have happened? Just a month later there was a murder in the area :s

I didn't teach him to be protective, I taught him what was normal and what's not so he only feels the need to protect me in actual dangerous situations - which fortunately are extremely rare.

[jacqui835]

But surely the more relevant issue what the dog is doing off its property and not under its owner's control.I'm sure not going to have an issue with a dog that takes a piece out of someone that assaults its owner of its own property and that would fail your proposed aggression test Greytmate.

Why would it fail? The hypothetical test is to determine whether the aggression is 'provoked' or not. It is not a test of what a dog would do if its owner was assaulted. It is a test to see what a dog will do when approached in a way that does not pose any (actual) threat to dog or owner.

There are dogs out there in our community now being used for breeding that would fail a test like this. The owners see the trait as desirable, and in my opinion are are totally misinterpreting standards.

I also think it's a mistake to think that we should alter a breed in Australia and that it can still be the same breed. Our dogs in the country are mostly a small part of a huge gene pool, and it's not up to us to try to make breeds 'softer' than they should be.

But there is clearly no need in Australia for dogs like Filas. And what some GSD breeders are supposedly breeding for in SA in my opinion is a hugely dangerous and harmful misinterpretation of the standard.

But what is considered provocative? If a person is trespassing on your property without your knowledge and your dog attacks them (even though you have signs up to warn them), is this a bad trait for a dog to have? Frankly I sleep better at night knowing that my dog wouldn't be hiding under the bed if we were robbed/attacked.

I agree with you though in the sense that I don't think you should have to worry about random dogs on the street attacking you or your dog. Owners need to teach their dog what's normal, and I see far too many dobermans that can't even be walked down the street because their owners tried to 'teach' them to be 'protective'.

[Greytmate]

But what is considered provocative?

I have already tried to answer that in a previous post.

[poodlefan]

But there is clearly no need in Australia for dogs like Filas. And what some GSD breeders are supposedly breeding for in SA in my opinion is a hugely dangerous and harmful misinterpretation of the standard.

I'm inclined to agree. As the Fila is a banned breed, its a moot point anyhow.

[megan_]

But there is clearly no need in Australia for dogs like Filas. And what some GSD breeders are supposedly breeding for in SA in my opinion is a hugely dangerous and harmful misinterpretation of the standard.

I'm inclined to agree. As the Fila is a banned breed, its a moot point anyhow.

But is it a moot point? Many people here say there should be no breed specific legislation, which to me implies lifting the bans?

[bulldogz4eva]

To those who have flamed me . ..

Yes, as concerns the Fila, this is an academic debate. Australia bans the Fila, and it's unlikely that the ban will be lifted.

But the larger question has practical implications, and raises havoc with the ideal of deed not breed. If people are breeding for aggression, regardless of what breed, how should society handle it?

Perhaps I should have made up a hypothetical where someone was breeding Labradors to be aggressive . . . I'm sure it could be done. I used the CAFIB Fila because there is a clear breed standard that says, no matter what translation you use, that the dog must show extreme aversion to strangers to be registered (they like to see a growl if approached and attack if touched) and breeders within this standard 'cull' the pups that run to strangers at 12 weeks and keep the ones that growl when approached.' A bit like Belyaev's experiments in reverse . . . but with accepting humans as 'family'. I don't know of other breeds where a breed standard explicitly calls for HA or DA

I would like to judge dogs by deed not breed, but I also think that deliberately breeding for aggression makes hash of this ideal. I believe social pressure needs to be put on people who breed for aggression. It is not at all clear how this should be done, given how badly governments fumble on dog questions, and how wimpy the pedigree dog world is about promoting standards other than conformation.

If those of you who have flamed me are deliberately selecting the pups with the greater propensity to attack to keep for breeding, I think you are at least as much of a problem as drongo owners. Some people buy the idea of dog as weapon or as property guardian. Ok, I can see having sheep guardians on a large property with a lot of sheep and high losses to ferral dogs. But it becomes complicated where people start bringing a guardian breed in to the inner suburbs and sticking it in the yard to protect property . . . or a criminal enterprise. Fences get compromised. Unsuspecting strangers come into yards. Kids take the dog out for walkies and it pulls free for a bit of someone or someone's dog. Poor dog needs exercise and goes nuts in confined space. Some yabo starts thinking they have just as much right to use the off-lead park as anyone else, with the result that the park becomes dangerous.

If you didnt want the debate to be about a the Fila then you shouldnt have posted the breed standard.when I read the topic I straight away knew what it would be about.

I think you need to do a bit mor research and understand the dogs.I never flamed you but you seem to conveniently not answer questions and only read what you want to.

The standard adopted by CAFIB was written by DR Paulo Santos Cruz in Brazil in 1946 suffice to say it was a few years ago.They adopted his breed standard when the club was set up to try to save the real Fila instead of turning it into another show dog tragedy in an attemppt to preserve the real Fila.Cfib papers are not accepted by the CBKC as far as I am aware so they are not dual registered as CBKC is recognised by the FCI.(This constantly makes me laugh when so called dog experts come here mouthing off about these dogs being restricted and being made up mutts becuase the Fila is FCI recognised and recognised by the New Zealand Kennel Club).Anyway back to the topic you dont have to worry about those dogs becuase they cant be registered with the CBKC.

Now read the standard again.It says "IF" the dog attacks the judge.It should read attempts to becuase they are on lead and the judge is not going to get close enough to get bitten.It says "if" not that it should attack the judge.It just states it should not be disqualified for it.Yes at one year old or above the dog must show aversion to strangers becuase if it doesnt it isnt a Fila that is a temperament test or a TT.What is so hard to understand about that?That is what they were bred for.If you dont like it dont get one.CAFIB is a Brazilian organisation it is not promoting the dogs outside of Brazil but looking to preserve a national dog that is part of its countries history just as the Blue heeler is part of ours.If you have lived in Brazil you might change your mind about the Fila.Their are still places where such a dog comes in handy.

Who is delibeartely selecting pups for aggression,I said to you if I wanted to breed a dog like that I could easily do it by doing so.I am not interested in doing so.You need to legislate to put onus on the owner not the dog becuase it doesnt matter what breed it is especially if it is a purposely bred crossbreed.How else are you going to fix the problem pray tell.Every scenario you put up doesnt really matter what dog it only matters who the owner is and how responsible they are and there lies the problem.People not dogs.

[poodlefan]

But there is clearly no need in Australia for dogs like Filas. And what some GSD breeders are supposedly breeding for in SA in my opinion is a hugely dangerous and harmful misinterpretation of the standard.

I'm inclined to agree. As the Fila is a banned breed, its a moot point anyhow.

But is it a moot point? Many people here say there should be no breed specific legislation, which to me implies lifting the bans?

I'm one of them. Do I think we'll see import bans lifted anytime soon though? Nope.

[bulldogz4eva]

see I think thats the difference, theres doing your job on command, or doing your job because you are aggressive, my partners family had a Rottie, who was a highly trained guard dog, he was also used as the walk by dog for training other dogs because he would not react even if they were going nuts, he was highly responsive to his families cues, he would remain silent when asked or bark loudly & seemingly ferociously if asked, but he was the biggest pooch you'd ever meet, was great with the kids, was good with other animals & dogs. but he was trained & ived with a kind & loving family. again it comes down to the human factor..

How does a guard dog guard if no humans are around to 'command' it?? The answer is simple - by instinct. That will involve a genetic predisposition to be DA or HA in most cases.

I don't have an issue with dogs that are prepared to be DA or HA as part of their 'jobs' if the job is lawful.

What I do have an issue with is people who get such dogs and fail to ensure that they don't become a danger to the community through poor management.

Lets not blame such dogs for the fact that their owners are irresponsible, ignorant or criminal.

Let me tell you, if I lived in some of the world's most dangerous places, I'd own a Fila in a heartbeat. South Africa would be a case in point. If I lived in Johannesburg I'd probably have several. I'd want people to think twice about the dogs before entering my home and I'd be happy for the dog to step up to protect house or family.

Such dogs are only an issue when they're placed in the wrong home.

Exactly

[sandgrubber]

No problem if the Fila is part of the debate. Just so the bigger problem isn't dropped and all attention goes to a breed that is banned in Oz. Aggressive tendencies can be genetic in dogs. If dogs are to be an accepted part of life in relatively densely settled regions, selection FOR human and/or dog aggressive behaviour needs to be constrained. In my reading, the CAFIB-standard Fila is the extreme for breeding for HA. Not only do I not want a CAFIB-type Fila, I don't want to have one anywhere near where I live, I don't want one in the dog park, and I don't want them ending up in the hands of yabos who like muscle and are stimulated by the sight of blood,. . . .or people who have a meth lab that needs to be guarded. Nor do I want to live under the dog laws that need to be written to deal with the havoc that 'dog as weapon' creates. Overly protective dogs and the problems they create in the hands of any but responsible, experienced dog owners will create problems for dog owners in general.

You do not address the basic question. Many breeders (in the broad sense of the word) are careless about temperament, and a few actively breed for aggression. Where aggression is either tolerated (in a relatively aggressive breed) or encouraged, the line, if not the breed, becomes a problem. One reason I have used the Fila as an example is to focus on concepts and avoid coming down on breeds that are in Australia. Having put in my years doing daily rounds in a boarding kennel in Australia,I'd generally praise GSD people for either socializing their dogs or being very clear that they are DA. . . . and for keeping their boys from straying and producing problem x-breed pups. I sure wish breeders of bull breeds would work harder to select against DA . . . would come down on fellow breeders who run particular aggressive lines . . . and would do more to prevent randy boys from knocking up everything in the neighborhood. Please, please, desex those boys and don't cater to the macho guys who want a 'real' dog with real balls. When I lived in the WA suburbs, there were a couple of neighborhood SBT-type (pedigree unknown) males who broke out any time a neighborhood girl came in season. No wonder there are so many young staffy cross dogs in the local pound.

Also note, damage done tends to be proportional to the dog's size, and in my books, an aggressive 50+ kg dog is a worry except in an isolated setting with a selected class of owners. I used to have a toy poodle client who I'd swear would pass the tests used by the Fila community for ojeriza. She would bit everyone. Her owner was an old German lady who had had many dogs in her lifetime, and this was the first who had caused problems. I feel sorry for the person who bought her and took good care of her for 10 years.But the problem stopped there: the bitch was spayed, and I'm sure her breeders were ashamed that they bred such a little monster.

You're taking things out of context. The first Fila breed standard was written by DR Paulo Santos Cruz in Brazil in 1946. There have been later revisions. For those who have questioned translations, here it is in Portuguese . . . as I read it, this says, in exposition, will not permit touching by the judge . . . no fault if it bites.

Dotado de coragem, determinação e valentia notáveis. Não oculta sua ojeriza a estranhos, nem sua tradicional meiguice, obediência e fidelidade aos donos e seus familiares. Conseqüentemente é, nas cidades, inexcedível guarda de propriedades e, no campo, exímio boiadeiro e caçador de animais de grande porte.

Como resultado de seu temperamento, nas exposições não permite ser tocado pelo juiz (um estranho) e, se o atacar, não deve tal reação ser considerada falta, mas apenas confirmação de seu temperamento.

Nas provas de temperamento, obrigatórias nas exposições, após doze meses de idade, seu ataque deve ser em diagonal ascendente, à frente do apresentador, e sem deste revelar dependência.

or the hash that Google translator (not elegant, but also, not biased and ususally intelligable)

Temperament

Equipped with courage, determination and outstanding courage. Does not hide its aversion to strangers, or its traditional gentleness, obedience and fidelity to its owners and family. Therefore it is in the cities, properties and unsurpassed guard in camp, and cowboy expert hunter of large animals.

As a result of his temperament, the exhibition does not allow to be touched by the judge (a stranger), and the attack, such a reaction should not be considered a fault, but only a confirmation of its temperament.

At temper tests, mandatory in the exhibition, after twelve months old, his attack must be diagonally upward to the front of the presenter, and without revealing this dependence.

In my reading, no question that the breed standard is selling the dog as a protector of family and property in both urban and rural settings, and capable of taking down large animals. It should attack . . . diagonally upwards . . . if confronted.

As for temperament and puppy selection, try scanning CAFIB breeder's websites.

http://www.molosdrea...=227&id_menu=24 is interesting (from Molos Dream Kennels in Poland, who breed various molasser breeds but feature the Fila as the ultimate guardian) . . . here are a few clips from their article on breed temperament, which they say has been widely circulated and much appreciated in Brazil and elsewhere . . . I don't have time this morning to chase down the breeder's websites that describe the culling (as pets) of pups who don't show ojeriza at 12 weeks . . . but they're out there.

Ojeriza is the most characteristic and indispensable trait of this amazing breed's personality. The Fila without ojeriza undoubtedly is not the correct Fila.

Brazilians use the term "ojeriza" to define the Fila's specific behavior toward strangers manifested by dislike, distrust, suspiciousness, or even hostility, hatred, severe aversion. Fila Brasileiro's attitude toward strangers is in every respect determined by ojeriza. Why is it considered to be such an exceptional trait? After all, among other breeds one may also find dogs which do not like strangers. That is true, but mere not liking of strangers found in some specimens of different breeds does not have much in common with ojeriza. Ojeriza does not result from the amount of experience gathered by a dog or even from the dog's individual psychological traits, but it is genetically conditioned in this particular breed — the Fila is born with ojeriza. Even the most clever dog will not learn this, what in the Fila is a mental trait.

And why does the Fila need this ojeriza? In this crazy world, there is nothing more threatening to a man than another man. .....

Because Fila is born with ojeriza, even few-week-old puppies may object against a familiarity on the part of a person they do not know. When a stranger tries to touch them, they move away, and when grabbed by unfamiliar hands, they do what they can to freed themselves or they simply freeze. The most daring ones among the pups manifest their dissatisfaction by using sound effects such as a childish barking or growling. . . . Some Filas already at the age of few months can bravely attack an aggressor, in other dogs ojeriza becomes visible a little bit later. It is assumed that the one-year-old Fila in a situation of a threat should successfully protect his owner. However, it happens that the Fila at the age of two (or even up to three) years old becomes sufficiently mature and self-confident to bravely and correctly attack the aggressor in defense of the owner . . .

What may provoke the Fila to defense?

It may be a stranger who gesticulates excessively or expresses emotions with a raised voice. It may be a female friend who flings her arms around our neck when we greet. It may be a cyclist coming fast in our direction, a woman with a baby carriage, a strange child running next to us, a drunk muttering man, and anyone who behaves in a way which is even slightly distinct, i.e. suspicious. The owner always has to have eyes at the back of his or her head and, above all, the owner has to learn to foresee the reactions of his or her dog. In order to be able to do that, one needs to spend a lot of time being with the dog and observing it.

If you didnt want the debate to be about a the Fila then you shouldnt have posted the breed standard.when I read the topic I straight away knew what it would be about.

and I guess you straight away knew it shouldn't be about anything you do or about the fact that some breeders favour HA or DA temperament . . . bull breeds prominent.

I think you need to do a bit mor research and understand the dogs.I never flamed you but you seem to conveniently not answer questions and only read what you want to.

The standard adopted by CAFIB was written by DR Paulo Santos Cruz in Brazil in 1946 suffice to say it was a few years ago.They adopted his breed standard when the club was set up to try to save the real Fila instead of turning it into another show dog tragedy in an attemppt to preserve the real Fila.Cfib papers are not accepted by the CBKC as far as I am aware so they are not dual registered as CBKC is recognised by the FCI.(This constantly makes me laugh when so called dog experts come here mouthing off about these dogs being restricted and being made up mutts becuase the Fila is FCI recognised and recognised by the New Zealand Kennel Club).Anyway back to the topic you dont have to worry about those dogs becuase they cant be registered with the CBKC.

Now read the standard again.It says "IF" the dog attacks the judge.It should read attempts to becuase they are on lead and the judge is not going to get close enough to get bitten.It says "if" not that it should attack the judge.It just states it should not be disqualified for it.Yes at one year old or above the dog must show aversion to strangers becuase if it doesnt it isnt a Fila that is a temperament test or a TT.What is so hard to understand about that?That is what they were bred for.If you dont like it dont get one.CAFIB is a Brazilian organisation it is not promoting the dogs outside of Brazil but looking to preserve a national dog that is part of its countries history just as the Blue heeler is part of ours.If you have lived in Brazil you might change your mind about the Fila.Their are still places where such a dog comes in handy.

Who is delibeartely selecting pups for aggression,I said to you if I wanted to breed a dog like that I could easily do it by doing so.I am not interested in doing so.You need to legislate to put onus on the owner not the dog becuase it doesnt matter what breed it is especially if it is a purposely bred crossbreed.How else are you going to fix the problem pray tell.Every scenario you put up doesnt really matter what dog it only matters who the owner is and how responsible they are and there lies the problem.People not dogs.

Edited June 30, 2011 by sandgrubber

[bulldogz4eva]

No problem if the Fila is part of the debate. Just so the bigger problem isn't dropped and all attention goes to a breed that is banned in Oz. Aggressive tendencies can be genetic in dogs. If dogs are to be an accepted part of life in relatively densely settled regions, selection FOR human and/or dog aggressive behaviour needs to be constrained. In my reading, the CAFIB-standard Fila is the extreme for breeding for HA. Not only do I not want a CAFIB-type Fila, I don't want to have one anywhere near where I live, I don't want one in the dog park, and I don't want them ending up in the hands of yabos who like muscle and are stimulated by the sight of blood,. . . .or people who have a meth lab that needs to be guarded. Nor do I want to live under the dog laws that need to be written to deal with the havoc that 'dog as weapon' creates. Overly protective dogs and the problems they create in the hands of any but responsible, experienced dog owners will create problems for dog owners in general.

You do not address the basic question. Many breeders (in the broad sense of the word) are careless about temperament, and a few actively breed for aggression. Where aggression is either tolerated (in a relatively aggressive breed) or encouraged, the line, if not the breed, becomes a problem. One reason I have used the Fila as an example is to focus on concepts and avoid coming down on breeds that are in Australia. Having put in my years doing daily rounds in a boarding kennel in Australia,I'd generally praise GSD people for either socializing their dogs or being very clear that they are DA. . . . and for keeping their boys from straying and producing problem x-breed pups. I sure wish breeders of bull breeds would work harder to select against DA . . . would come down on fellow breeders who run particular aggressive lines . . . and would do more to prevent randy boys from knocking up everything in the neighborhood. Please, please, desex those boys and don't cater to the macho guys who want a 'real' dog with real balls. When I lived in the WA suburbs, there were a couple of neighborhood SBT-type (pedigree unknown) males who broke out any time a neighborhood girl came in season. No wonder there are so many young staffy cross dogs in the local pound.

Also note, damage done tends to be proportional to the dog's size, and in my books, an aggressive 50+ kg dog is a worry except in an isolated setting with a selected class of owners. I used to have a toy poodle client who I'd swear would pass the tests used by the Fila community for ojeriza. She would bit everyone. Her owner was an old German lady who had had many dogs in her lifetime, and this was the first who had caused problems. I feel sorry for the person who bought her and took good care of her for 10 years.But the problem stopped there: the bitch was spayed, and I'm sure her breeders were ashamed that they bred such a little monster.

You're taking things out of context. The first Fila breed standard was written by DR Paulo Santos Cruz in Brazil in 1946. There have been later revisions. For those who have questioned translations, here it is in Portuguese . . . as I read it, this says, in exposition, will not permit touching by the judge . . . no fault if it bites.

Dotado de coragem, determinação e valentia notáveis. Não oculta sua ojeriza a estranhos, nem sua tradicional meiguice, obediência e fidelidade aos donos e seus familiares. Conseqüentemente é, nas cidades, inexcedível guarda de propriedades e, no campo, exímio boiadeiro e caçador de animais de grande porte.

Como resultado de seu temperamento, nas exposições não permite ser tocado pelo juiz (um estranho) e, se o atacar, não deve tal reação ser considerada falta, mas apenas confirmação de seu temperamento.

Nas provas de temperamento, obrigatórias nas exposições, após doze meses de idade, seu ataque deve ser em diagonal ascendente, à frente do apresentador, e sem deste revelar dependência.

or the hash that Google translator (not elegant, but also, not biased and ususally intelligable)

Temperament

Equipped with courage, determination and outstanding courage. Does not hide its aversion to strangers, or its traditional gentleness, obedience and fidelity to its owners and family. Therefore it is in the cities, properties and unsurpassed guard in camp, and cowboy expert hunter of large animals.

As a result of his temperament, the exhibition does not allow to be touched by the judge (a stranger), and the attack, such a reaction should not be considered a fault, but only a confirmation of its temperament.

At temper tests, mandatory in the exhibition, after twelve months old, his attack must be diagonally upward to the front of the presenter, and without revealing this dependence.

In my reading, no question that the breed standard is selling the dog as a protector of family and property in both urban and rural settings, and capable of taking down large animals. It should attack . . . diagonally upwards . . . if confronted.

As for temperament and puppy selection, try scanning CAFIB breeder's websites.

http://www.molosdrea...=227&id_menu=24 is interesting (from Molos Dream Kennels in Poland, who breed various molasser breeds but feature the Fila as the ultimate guardian) . . . here are a few clips from their article on breed temperament, which they say has been widely circulated and much appreciated in Brazil and elsewhere . . . I don't have time this morning to chase down the breeder's websites that describe the culling (as pets) of pups who don't show ojeriza at 12 weeks . . . but they're out there.

Ojeriza is the most characteristic and indispensable trait of this amazing breed's personality. The Fila without ojeriza undoubtedly is not the correct Fila.

Brazilians use the term "ojeriza" to define the Fila's specific behavior toward strangers manifested by dislike, distrust, suspiciousness, or even hostility, hatred, severe aversion. Fila Brasileiro's attitude toward strangers is in every respect determined by ojeriza. Why is it considered to be such an exceptional trait? After all, among other breeds one may also find dogs which do not like strangers. That is true, but mere not liking of strangers found in some specimens of different breeds does not have much in common with ojeriza. Ojeriza does not result from the amount of experience gathered by a dog or even from the dog's individual psychological traits, but it is genetically conditioned in this particular breed — the Fila is born with ojeriza. Even the most clever dog will not learn this, what in the Fila is a mental trait.

And why does the Fila need this ojeriza? In this crazy world, there is nothing more threatening to a man than another man. .....

Because Fila is born with ojeriza, even few-week-old puppies may object against a familiarity on the part of a person they do not know. When a stranger tries to touch them, they move away, and when grabbed by unfamiliar hands, they do what they can to freed themselves or they simply freeze. The most daring ones among the pups manifest their dissatisfaction by using sound effects such as a childish barking or growling. . . . Some Filas already at the age of few months can bravely attack an aggressor, in other dogs ojeriza becomes visible a little bit later. It is assumed that the one-year-old Fila in a situation of a threat should successfully protect his owner. However, it happens that the Fila at the age of two (or even up to three) years old becomes sufficiently mature and self-confident to bravely and correctly attack the aggressor in defense of the owner . . .

What may provoke the Fila to defense?

It may be a stranger who gesticulates excessively or expresses emotions with a raised voice. It may be a female friend who flings her arms around our neck when we greet. It may be a cyclist coming fast in our direction, a woman with a baby carriage, a strange child running next to us, a drunk muttering man, and anyone who behaves in a way which is even slightly distinct, i.e. suspicious. The owner always has to have eyes at the back of his or her head and, above all, the owner has to learn to foresee the reactions of his or her dog. In order to be able to do that, one needs to spend a lot of time being with the dog and observing it.

If you didnt want the debate to be about a the Fila then you shouldnt have posted the breed standard.when I read the topic I straight away knew what it would be about.

and I guess you straight away knew it shouldn't be about anything you do or about the fact that some breeders favour HA or DA temperament . . . bull breeds prominent.

I think you need to do a bit mor research and understand the dogs.I never flamed you but you seem to conveniently not answer questions and only read what you want to.

The standard adopted by CAFIB was written by DR Paulo Santos Cruz in Brazil in 1946 suffice to say it was a few years ago.They adopted his breed standard when the club was set up to try to save the real Fila instead of turning it into another show dog tragedy in an attemppt to preserve the real Fila.Cfib papers are not accepted by the CBKC as far as I am aware so they are not dual registered as CBKC is recognised by the FCI.(This constantly makes me laugh when so called dog experts come here mouthing off about these dogs being restricted and being made up mutts becuase the Fila is FCI recognised and recognised by the New Zealand Kennel Club).Anyway back to the topic you dont have to worry about those dogs becuase they cant be registered with the CBKC.

Now read the standard again.It says "IF" the dog attacks the judge.It should read attempts to becuase they are on lead and the judge is not going to get close enough to get bitten.It says "if" not that it should attack the judge.It just states it should not be disqualified for it.Yes at one year old or above the dog must show aversion to strangers becuase if it doesnt it isnt a Fila that is a temperament test or a TT.What is so hard to understand about that?That is what they were bred for.If you dont like it dont get one.CAFIB is a Brazilian organisation it is not promoting the dogs outside of Brazil but looking to preserve a national dog that is part of its countries history just as the Blue heeler is part of ours.If you have lived in Brazil you might change your mind about the Fila.Their are still places where such a dog comes in handy.

Who is delibeartely selecting pups for aggression,I said to you if I wanted to breed a dog like that I could easily do it by doing so.I am not interested in doing so.You need to legislate to put onus on the owner not the dog becuase it doesnt matter what breed it is especially if it is a purposely bred crossbreed.How else are you going to fix the problem pray tell.Every scenario you put up doesnt really matter what dog it only matters who the owner is and how responsible they are and there lies the problem.People not dogs.

No problem if its part of the debate becuase you made it part of the debate.You seem to be in shock and aghast since you first discovered that breed standard 12 months ago.Well guess what the Fila has been in the states for the past 30 or so years.Google dog fatalaties and see what you find.You wont find any becuase there arent any so that might tell you what sort of dog they are.Most are not rampant werewolf like animals that will kill any passer by.They guard there space and family with vigour like many guardian breeds do,however they are not handler aggressive like some of the so called guardian breeds may have a tendency toward without a firm hand.They are loyal to the core to their family and thats it.They do not welcome outsiders and that is not a problem if you know how to take basic precautions.Chances are in Claifornia where there are quite a few you may have one living next to you and never know it.Not unless you plant to jump over your neighbours fence.They are not a rebid vicious animal so you need to stop worrying yourself about them.

How is it you say the CAFIB standard is the extreme for breeding Human aggression?To attempt to put it into context for you so you may understand.The part about the temperament of the dog is a test at 12 months of age or older.The test is conducting by a stranger and he is acting strangely/suspiciously and approaching the dog and owner with a stick/whip/gun in a diagonal pattern and the dog must at all times keep himself betweeen the attacker and his owner while being willing to go forward and bite him if necessary.Now lets put that in perspective.What do you think Law Enforcement do with a prospective dog to train for police work?At some stage they have to ascertain if the dog will bite to be able to apprehend a suspect.So they undertake some bite work with an agitator.NO DIFFERENT.Do you know what Schutzhund is?It was invented as the Breed Standard test for the GSD.NO DIFFERENT. The TT or Temperament Test for the Fila is no different.The Cafib and CBKC standard are just like the Show GSD people and the Schutzhund GSD people.Some think a dog she just be good for strutting around a ring and looking pretty and others dont.Cafib wants to preserve the rustic old world Mastiff and the others want another show dog tragedy.pretty obvious I would have thought. It is quite obvious from your posts that you have never had anything to do with guardian breeds.I am not trying to be funny but it is obvious.I hope and pray now that you have moved back to the States that you never require such a dog or never suffer an event that makes you understand why people would keep such a dog.

Have you ever heard of a Black Russian Terrier?Caucasian Ovcharka?

They are guard dogs par excellence and the 'real' ones have a temperament that is not all that different to a Fila.Ask some Neapolitan Mastiff breeders if they have ever had a dog in the ring that wanted to bite the judge or owned a dog they would not take to a show becuase of that reason.Maybe many may not answer honestly but I could name names here of dogs that would have gladly bitten the judge but you have to put things in context and perspective when you talk about breeding for aggression.The Bull Mastiffs history prior to breed standard is not that much different than the Fila for that matter.

It has already been spelled out for you.Yes certain breeds will genetically carry certain traits but that is only half of it.the other half is on the other end of the leash and what they do in raising,training,housing,caring for said dog.I personally dont beleive in dumbing dogs down so people can own them.If you dont want certain traits then dont own certain breeds.What breeders should be more focused on is who they sell dogs to and why.Sadly too many are in it for a dollar and dont care who they sell a dog too and that is the problem.

As far as bull breeds go.yes as part of their history and make up some will be prone to DA if you dont acknowledge that and dont want it then dont own one.Simple.We shouldnt have to dumb dogs down to please Neurotic owners that want a look instead of a dog.yes dogs should fit into the environment they live in but once again that comes down to breeders being responsible in who they sell dogs to and if they care enough about the breed over the money to make the right choice.As far as breeding for aggression you would first have to understand corrct temperament in the said breed first.Take care and pray you never need a real guard dog.

Edited June 30, 2011 by bulldogz4eva

[Mystiqview]

I voted special licence.

No dog should be bred for unprovoked attacks on anyone or thing.

I can see the possible need for certain traits for working dogs such as those used in AFP or military. But then those dogs are trained properly and under strict rules/conditions and are generally not in the hands of idiots.

After seeing an ad the other week for purebred Pittys... YOu just have to wonder what the authorities are really doing about breeding and banned breeds as it is.