Cavaliers Syringomyelia New Study

[shortstep]

shortstep there are quite a few breeders in NSW doing MRI's. Some Victorian's fly their dog to Sydney and pick up by a local taken in done and put back on a flight and that is cheaper than having it done in Vic. But some dogs have died under the anaesthetic so there are risks.

Can you tell us how many are MRI screening every dog they breed, both parents?

The ones I have found that have done some scans, have only done a dog here or there, they were not doing both parents of every breeding. With out doing both parents of every breeding, the breeders can not follow the recommended breeding directives, which have been shown to reduce the number of affected pups.

Also is there any movement towards making breeding directives with manditory MRI screeing on both parents of all litters?

BTW all breeders that have hips, elbows or shoulder scored all have to be put under to be tested. All breeders that do BEAR testing have to put their dogs under. All breeders who place pups on desexing agreements have these dogs put under to have the surgery. There are countless other examples. I do not think that this is a good excuse for not doing the testing. If the breed also has a real problem with tolerating anaesthesia, then that is another matter that needs to be looked at very closely as it could be realated to other health problems that need to brought to light.

I realize other tests require a GA. But because the MRI is very expensive $1200 to $1500 dollars, risk of death and not conclusive you have to weigh up the odds.

Ok lets weigh it up, so here is the question.

Is doing a MRI worth it for the dog or it's new owner??

Will it reduce risk? Yes!

Will it improve the odds that their pup will not get sick? Yes!

So here are the facts.

A) Offspring without SM only occurred when there was at least one parent of Grade A status;

(B) There were higher numbers of SM clear offspring if both parents had Grade A;

© All Grade A* offspring (SM clear over 5 years) had at least one parent that was Grade A*;

(D) 100% of offspring were SM affected if both parents were SM-affected;

(E) SM also occurs in Grade A x Grade A crosses (approximately 25%, but this figure might be improved if more older dogs are screened dogs);

(F) Using dogs of unknown status was risky for SM affectedness;

(G) 50% of dogs in a Grade A x Unknown cross were SM affected.

Ok if I was a dog or an owner, I would, with out question, want the parents of my puppy screened!

I do not see the cost as inhibitive in any way conpared to the reduced risk with MRI screening. Besides I pay more than that for health testing on my dogs, these days that is not a lot to spend.

The risk of dying on the table should not be high unless they are dying due to some other health problem in the breed and if that is the case it needs to be address.

I can not see any reason in the world any Cav should be bred without MRI testing. And ask me (which I am sure no one will LOL), males should all have to be over 5-6 years old before being breed and clear on heart and MRI.

Soon the governement will have to make a law about it.

Edited June 29, 2011 by shortstep

[shortstep]

The key word here is "asymptomatic" methinks... unless tested, you ain't going to know it's there until it's too late...

Without knowing the breeding background of the tested dogs in the study, it's a little hard to draw absolute conclusions as to the prevalence of this disease in the breed. How many of the dogs were sourced from ethical registered breeders who screen their breeding stock regularly, for example... ??

Add to the above the fact that research is usually undergone to prove or disprove a particular theory... well...

T.

I can't read the study so cannot answer your question.

However as far as I know there are no breeders in Asutralia that are MRI screening all of their breeding dogs.

I think the Uk is further ahead with more breeders screening, but it is still optional I believe.

As long as Oz does their own study and scans several hundred dogs and gets totally different results which shows it is not a problem over here, that would be great! But until then, I think we can only go on the breed information that has already been obtained.

Even if they are off by half and the affected rate is 35% it is still way too high. This is not my breed, but it is my registry and we are now all held to account. Clearly this will come under review soon in OZ and with out any clear plans to address this problem I fear for the future of this breed and the impact it will have on all breeds and breeders in the ANKC.

There are some breeders in Australia who are testing all of their breeding dogs

That is fantatic to hear!!

I hope these breeders are held up as the example that other breeders should follow.

[Victoria_g06]

Seeing the words "Cavalier + Syringomyelia" in the same sentence makes the blood rush out of my face!! I appreciate studies need to be done and answers need to be found however as Georgina Child told us and our vet - "Being unlucky enough to get a dog with this disease in Australia is like being struck by lightening".Thankfully this disease is not very common in Australia so I think a lot of this just alarms people more than it needs to. The reality is 95% of Cavaliers in Australia won't get this disease! Cavaliers aren't the only breed that can get this disease either, I believe also the Toy Poodle and the Yorkshire are just as susceptible.

It makes my heart break too now, I had no idea about it until my little girl started showing signs. I've heard this all over too; that it isn't as common here in Australia and yet when I went to the University of Melbourne Vet Clinic in Werribee they knew exactly what she was there for..

I find it had to believe that figure of 95% of cavvies in Aus wont get in when "Researchers estimate that up to 95% of CKCSs have Chiari-like malformation (CM or CLM)" and "that more than 50% of cavaliers have SM" Cavalier Health.Org (I'm not sure what country but it could be the U.k or America. And since most of our cavaliers come from U.K breeding Stock we have a good chance to get the disease here in Australia.

The key word here is "asymptomatic" methinks... unless tested, you ain't going to know it's there until it's too late...Without knowing the breeding background of the tested dogs in the study, it's a little hard to draw absolute conclusions as to the prevalence of this disease in the breed. How many of the dogs were sourced from ethical registered breeders who screen their breeding stock regularly, for example... ??Add to the above the fact that research is usually undergone to prove or disprove a particular theory... well...T.

Asymptomatic means that the parents could have the disease and never show any signs..they then pass it onto the puppies that can show signs. I bought my puppy from a registered breeder but I didn't like the state she kept her dogs in (Some inside and some outside in the mud and all matted) I don't believe she has screened anyone of her dogs.

I wonder whether it's thought to be much more uncommon in Australia because owners here may be less likely to have the work up done to prove it?I've been told by Vets who've worked in the UK, that dog ownership is different over there to here, in that pretty much everyone has insurance so there's really such thing as not affording treatment. So could it be possible that it's more common over there because it's diagnosed more than it is here? Could there be a lot more Cavs in Aus with SM, however owners are unable to afford the Specialist appointments and MRI to confirm?We have a client with a Cav who displays the symptoms, particularly when excited, but the owner isn't that phased by it? They've had the disease explained to them but there's been no discussion of wanting to see a Specialist and/or have an MRI.I guess I wonder how many people out there have dogs displaying symptoms but just think their dog is itchy and therefore not interested in seeking further vet attention? I assume the disease can vary in severity, so not all would be miserable 24/7?

I had to wait a year before my vets would believe my puppy had SM, they thought it was allergies and ear infections, so I believe the vets should be more informed a well. I could tell the minute she started scratching air and not her ears that she had it.. The diesease does vary in severity and left too long it goes from being a 'pins and needles' sensation to absolute pain.. you only have to search for videos to see a heartbreaking cavalier in so much pain The diease cannot be reversed as well, so my dog that has the slight air scratching will always have that, if the disease is left and the dog gets painful sensations they will ALWAYS be there and that is terrible to leave it that long..

shortstep there are quite a few breeders in NSW doing MRI's. Some Victorian's fly their dog to Sydney and pick up by a local taken in done and put back on a flight and that is cheaper than having it done in Vic. But some dogs have died under the anaesthetic so there are risks.

Can you tell us how many are MRI screening every dog they breed, both parents? The ones I have found that have done some scans, have only done a dog here or there, they were not doing both parents of every breeding. With out doing both parents of every breeding, the breeders can not follow the recommended breeding directives, which have been shown to reduce the number of affected pups. Also is there any movement towards making breeding directives with manditory MRI screeing on both parents of all litters? BTW all breeders that have hips, elbows or shoulder scored all have to be put under to be tested. All breeders that do BEAR testing have to put their dogs under. All breeders who place pups on desexing agreements have these dogs put under to have the surgery. There are countless other examples. I do not think that this is a good excuse for not doing the testing. If the breed also has a real problem with tolerating anaesthesia, then that is another matter that needs to be looked at very closely as it could be realated to other health problems that need to brought to light.

I realize other tests require a GA. But because the MRI is very expensive $1200 to $1500 dollars, risk of death and not conclusive you have to weigh up the odds.

The Cavalier Club in Victoria are looking for enough dogs to do discounted MRI's. I paid $1,700 but if they have enough dogs it can go down to $900. I don't know why more breeders arn't taking this up.. I will definately be wanting some results shown to me next time I search for a Cavalier puppy. That is nothing compared to paying $5,000 for a brain shunt surgery and associated costs...

[shortstep]

It is definitely not as prevalent here as the UK.

Can you give links to the studies that prove that statement. There has only been one Look See that I know about and 50% were affected and it was very small sample.

Can you site the last parent club natioanl survey of owners (taken from ANKC registration records over the past 8 years)on what frequency they reported, as I assume the parents club is all over this problem in mulitple ways.

Edited July 3, 2011 by shortstep

[Bilbo Baggins]

Okay shortstep what is your agenda???????

[shortstep]

Okay shortstep what is your agenda???????

My agenda?

Well in the case of your statement, my agenda is to find and understand the facts.

Is it a fact or your opinion that the prevalence of this disease is lower in Australia?

If it is fact can you give the % / rate for Australian and site where you got that information from.

If it is your opinion that is fine and you are welcome to it, but you should say it is your opinion.

Otherwise some folks may think it is a fact. Perhaps a new breeder who might decide not to do an MRI on her bitch. Perhaps an owner looking at a dog she thinks might have it and then dismisses her concern. Perhaps a buyer who might not think she needs to request MRI results on the pups parents.

[Bilbo Baggins]

So you are cahoots with Bet Hargraves then?????

[Zug Zug]

Delighted to hear that the breeding community in Australia is taking this issue seriously.

Cavs are a really lovely breed, and they give their owners so much pleasure. They are very well suited to so many modern households, and will only become more popular over time if their health issues can be managed effectively.

This is the kind of illness that could make many potential owners think twice. It would be a shame to see the breed decline.

[toy dog]

So you are cahoots with Bet Hargraves then?????

who is shortstep? i find it interesting that the majority of posts are not in the breeders section but in the general, most of the info that is posted is from reading up about pedigree dogs. is shortstop a breeder of registered dogs?

most folks on here are transparent, have pics of the dogs they breed or own and state whether they are an exhibitor or breeder or a dog owner, none of that for you.

if posters don't agree with what shortstep writes about your breed and the genetic problems that Shortstep reads up on, then you get all these links and statistics and some such to prove just how wrong you are.

if you dare answer anything or get into the conversation your breed is quickly highlighted negatively.

so who is shortstep? I dont' know what shortsteps agenda is either?

are you from Australia or are you from somewhere else? I don't expect an answer.

Edited July 3, 2011 by toy dog

[Janba]

Edited

Edited July 3, 2011 by Janba

[Sunnyflower]

I am just as curious as BB a Toy Dog..

I personally put a dog to sleep from this horrid disease ONLY 22 days ago and the neurologist we did all our dealings, medications, diagnosis with was with the very well known Georgina Child from SASH who is probably one of the only educated people in Australia who is offering her time FREE of charge to reduce the costs of MRI's to help find the gene for this disease. She is the one who told me that it isn't as common in Australia as it is in the UK but the more we import UK dogs that aren't MRI'd the more this disease will grow in our Australian dogs.

Shortstep - if you are so hell bent on educating the DOL public about Syringomyelia then WHY don't you advertise that this disease is ALSO in the Toy Poodles, Yorkies, Poms and a couple of other toy breeds?

[HollyMilo]

So you are cahoots with Bet Hargraves then?????

Why is it that some cavalier breeders get so defensive when anyone asks questions about syringomyelia?

Shortstep - if you are so hell bent on educating the DOL public about Syringomyelia then WHY don't you advertise that this disease is ALSO in the Toy Poodles, Yorkies, Poms and a couple of other toy breeds?

I would think it's because the report referred to in the OP was on the study of syringomyelia in CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIELS. Had the study been conducted on syringo in toy poodles, yorkies or poms then perhaps shortstep would have mentioned those breeds.

Edited July 3, 2011 by HollyMilo

[shortstep]

So you are cahoots with Bet Hargraves then?????

Why is it that some cavalier breeders get so defensive when anyone asks questions about syringomyelia?

Shortstep - if you are so hell bent on educating the DOL public about Syringomyelia then WHY don't you advertise that this disease is ALSO in the Toy Poodles, Yorkies, Poms and a couple of other toy breeds?

I would think it's because the report referred to in the OP was on the study of syringomyelia in CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIELS. Had the study been conducted on syringo in toy poodles, yorkies or poms then perhaps shortstep would have mentioned those breeds.

The same reason they attack who ever asks those questions, because they either do not know the answers or are afraid of the answer or both.

So we can now conclude from the repsonses, there is no information, no study, done by others or the Cav Club of Australia, that says says what the rate of this disease is in Australia, (other than the one I menetioned at 50% affected).

In short no one knows what the rate is in Australia.

I would then say that until proven otherwise, that the prudent thing to do is to act as if it could be as high as in this topic's new report and to act accordingly. The recommendations for this disease includes doing MRI's on all parents prior to breeding.

Now if that makes me a real trouble maker, then what does it make those who want to attack that idea?

Breeds and breeders are not acting in isolation in ANKC, we are all being held responsiable. We (ANKC breeders, owners or the public in general) all have a right to ask questions about what breeders are doing to address problems or ask why they are not doing something. In case you have not noticed the whole world is asking these questions and and frankly the answers in some cases need a lot more work.

I want breeders in this country to follow the directive on this disease and test the dogs before they breed them. If you think that is wrong, then prove it.

Edited July 3, 2011 by shortstep

[bryan_mannix]

So you are cahoots with Bet Hargraves then?????

who is shortstep? i find it interesting that the majority of posts are not in the breeders section but in the general, most of the info that is posted is from reading up about pedigree dogs. is shortstop a breeder of registered dogs?

most folks on here are transparent, have pics of the dogs they breed or own and state whether they are an exhibitor or breeder or a dog owner, none of that for you.

if posters don't agree with what shortstep writes about your breed and the genetic problems that Shortstep reads up on, then you get all these links and statistics and some such to prove just how wrong you are.

if you dare answer anything or get into the conversation your breed is quickly highlighted negatively.

so who is shortstep? I dont' know what shortsteps agenda is either?

are you from Australia or are you from somewhere else? I don't expect an answer.

Again attacking them "man" rather than the ball... Does it matter who is asking the questions? Surely the answers are the important thing! Have the ANKC, with the full support of all breeders, jumped on board and comissioned a breed wide survey? Does anyone know the rates or are we all guessing?

[Victoria_g06]

So you are cahoots with Bet Hargraves then?????

who is shortstep? i find it interesting that the majority of posts are not in the breeders section but in the general, most of the info that is posted is from reading up about pedigree dogs. is shortstop a breeder of registered dogs?most folks on here are transparent, have pics of the dogs they breed or own and state whether they are an exhibitor or breeder or a dog owner, none of that for you.if posters don't agree with what shortstep writes about your breed and the genetic problems that Shortstep reads up on, then you get all these links and statistics and some such to prove just how wrong you are. if you dare answer anything or get into the conversation your breed is quickly highlighted negatively.so who is shortstep? I dont' know what shortsteps agenda is either? are you from Australia or are you from somewhere else? I don't expect an answer.

Again attacking them "man" rather than the ball... Does it matter who is asking the questions? Surely the answers are the important thing! Have the ANKC, with the full support of all breeders, jumped on board and comissioned a breed wide survey? Does anyone know the rates or are we all guessing?

This isn't specifically Australia but it does include it..

Inherited Occipital Hypoplasia/ Syringomyelia in the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel: Setting up a Worldwide DNA Collection

Clare Rusbridge, Penny Knowler,, Guy A. Rouleau, Berge A. Minassian and Jan Rothuizen

"The family database is currently 24 generations and details over 8,500 related individuals across 3 continents (North America, Australasia, and Europe). MRI Status is known for 193 dogs (160 affected with syringomyelia, 33 clear).."

Now doesn't that seem like a high percentage of dogs affected?