wuffles Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 If you can't get enthusiasm out of a dog unless it's a working line dog then I don't think it's the dog that is the trouble... ;) Other people are doing just fine. It was a joke Corvus but while we're on the subject 'enthusiasm' or 'drive' is genetic, the dog either has it or it doesn’t. It's not something you can simply inject and you're away. 'Drive' in working line dogs when compared to non-working line dogs is light years apart. I see too many people fluffing around making more of a commotion than the dog trying to build drive in something that simply doesn’t have it or is very low. Quite funny to watch actually.............lol Many of the dogs I see struggling in the ring have plenty of drive. I use food containers/jackpots plus hand touches, spins, etc. but I still struggle with the issue a bit. In my case I put it down to proofing... I need to let my girl know that a reward could be coming at any time... including in the ring. I need to do more mock trials to help with this, and probably also more work on duration in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kavik Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 If you can't get enthusiasm out of a dog unless it's a working line dog then I don't think it's the dog that is the trouble... ;) Other people are doing just fine. It was a joke Corvus but while we're on the subject 'enthusiasm' or 'drive' is genetic, the dog either has it or it doesn’t. It's not something you can simply inject and you're away. 'Drive' in working line dogs when compared to non-working line dogs is light years apart. I see too many people fluffing around making more of a commotion than the dog trying to build drive in something that simply doesn’t have it or is very low. Quite funny to watch actually.............lol Drive is not the only issue when it comes to working in the ring. Dogs aren't silly - if you wear a treat pouch and praise/reward a lot in training but don't in the ring and haven't weaned them off for the amount of time in the ring, and worked out a reward sysytem for it, they will figure it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogdude Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 (edited) [ name='Yesmaam' It was a joke Corvus but while we're on the subject 'enthusiasm' or 'drive' is genetic, the dog either has it or it doesn’t. It's not something you can simply inject and you're away. 'Drive' in working line dogs when compared to non-working line dogs is light years apart. I see too many people fluffing around making more of a commotion than the dog trying to build drive in something that simply doesn’t have it or is very low. Quite funny to watch actually.............lol I agree that a dog either has high drive or dos'nt, but its not all about working lines or breeds. Plenty of non working lines and breeds have drive to burn. Its all about the individual. I trained a Staffy with just as much drive as any working dog, and there are plenty of pound dogs on death row for the very same reason. Of course you are more likely to find a hign drive dog from a working line, but its not guaranteed. I would also argue that many potential pet line dogs do not have owners who know how to promote and nurture the drive from puppyhood like working dog owners do. Most pet owners automatically attempt to suppress high drive, and later when they want to trial they are trying to do the opposite. Edited June 22, 2011 by dogdude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Most pet owners automatically attempt to suppress high drive, and later when they want to trial they are trying to do the opposite. nod nod nod!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 (edited) I've seen dogs that aren't from working lines with awesome drive too! I had a RIPPER border terrier in my obedience class the other night, he pulled my tug toy to shreds. I also think that when it comes to ANKC obedience competition most competitors want a dog they can live with first. A high drive WL dog is not suitable for everyone who competes in obedience and dogs with lower drive can certainly do well enough. Yesmaam you'd get a good laugh out of my obedience class because I get as many people as possibly jumping around "making a commotion" to make training fun and exciting for their dogs. The difference in the dogs - even low drive dogs - when the owners put more excitement into their training is blatantly clear. My new pup will be from WL because that is what I want and that will fit best with my training and the breed will suit my lifestyle, but if we only encouraged people with high drive WL dogs to compete we'd be cutting out the majority of the people who compete in ANKC obedience. Edited June 22, 2011 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 My dog with the most drive is also rather painful to live with. She doesn't run around all day but she is soooo intense. No one likes her, poor dog. Everyone wants to steal my lowest (no drive) dog. I do obedience (and well all dog sports) for the dogs. If they don't appear to enjoy something then I don't do it with them. I don't try and make them enthusiastic. For me they need to want to do it. I just don't enjoy training dogs that aren't in to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huski Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 (edited) If they don't appear to enjoy something then I don't do it with them. I don't try and make them enthusiastic. For me they need to want to do it. I just don't enjoy training dogs that aren't in to it. My dog used to hate obedience but she loves it now, changing that around was about challenging my handling skills and methods. At what point do you say it's the dog that doesn't enjoy it, rather than it's the way you are training them? (genuine question) ETA: asking because I see quite a number of people at my obedience club whose dogs don't appear to enjoy training but under the right instruction and the right level of enthusiasm from the owner the dogs blossom. Edited June 22, 2011 by huski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 If you can't get enthusiasm out of a dog unless it's a working line dog then I don't think it's the dog that is the trouble... ;) Other people are doing just fine. It was a joke Corvus So was mine. Hence the wink. :p but while we're on the subject 'enthusiasm' or 'drive' is genetic, the dog either has it or it doesn’t.It's not something you can simply inject and you're away. 'Drive' in working line dogs when compared to non-working line dogs is light years apart. I see too many people fluffing around making more of a commotion than the dog trying to build drive in something that simply doesn’t have it or is very low. Quite funny to watch actually.............lol I don't think enthusiasm and drive are the same thing. Enthusiasm in my mellow dog looks very different to enthusiasm in my drivey dog, but that doesn't mean it's not there or that it's not worth nurturing. An enthusiastic dog is a happy dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 If they don't appear to enjoy something then I don't do it with them. I don't try and make them enthusiastic. For me they need to want to do it. I just don't enjoy training dogs that aren't in to it. My dog used to hate obedience but she loves it now, changing that around was about challenging my handling skills and methods. At what point do you say it's the dog that doesn't enjoy it, rather than it's the way you are training them? (genuine question) ETA: asking because I see quite a number of people at my obedience club whose dogs don't appear to enjoy training but under the right instruction and the right level of enthusiasm from the owner the dogs blossom. It isn't really about how well the dog does the activity. It is how happy they are to be doing it. Waggy tails etc. Poppy was better than Brock at agility but I felt like she didn't seem enthusiastic about it. In obedience her eyes glow and herding well that is another zone again. Brock was pretty crap at agility but loved it. He looked really happy doing it. I am not talking about basic obedience btw, but competition stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 At what point do you say it's the dog that doesn't enjoy it, rather than it's the way you are training them? (genuine question) I think that's a really important question. I can see that maybe some people are not interested in persisting with a dog that is difficult to train. That's why working breeds are so popular, I guess. For myself, though, I've become increasingly unwilling to accept that an animal just doesn't like an activity and there's no helping it. Whether you want to help it or not seems to me to be the real question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Whether you want to help it or not seems to me to be the real question. Why is it helping it??? Why is competing at a high level of obedience helping a dog? The dog doesn't give a rats arse if it competes or not. You aren't training it to save it as we are talking about competition obedience on this thread not basic manners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 For myself, though, I've become increasingly unwilling to accept that an animal just doesn't like an activity and there's no helping it. Whether you want to help it or not seems to me to be the real question. Where did I say "it" was the dog??? "It" is whether an animal enjoys an activity or not. Way to quote me out of context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 For myself, though, I've become increasingly unwilling to accept that an animal just doesn't like an activity and there's no helping it. Whether you want to help it or not seems to me to be the real question. Where did I say "it" was the dog??? "It" is whether an animal enjoys an activity or not. Way to quote me out of context. This is a thread about competition obedience with a dog. It is you that is out of context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wuffles Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 OP, have you thought about retraining her heelwork using training in drive? Or any other method involving lots of fun and games for the dog? I essentially retrained my girl a while ago due to focus issues and I found it helped us immensely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 For myself, though, I've become increasingly unwilling to accept that an animal just doesn't like an activity and there's no helping it. Whether you want to help it or not seems to me to be the real question. Where did I say "it" was the dog??? "It" is whether an animal enjoys an activity or not. Way to quote me out of context. This is a thread about competition obedience with a dog. It is you that is out of context. Uh huh. Because how far a trainer goes to help a dog enjoy an activity has nothing at all to do with enthusiasm in the obedience ring. It's okay, you can say you misread what I wrote. It doesn't hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) For myself, though, I've become increasingly unwilling to accept that an animal just doesn't like an activity and there's no helping it. Whether you want to help it or not seems to me to be the real question. Where did I say "it" was the dog??? "It" is whether an animal enjoys an activity or not. Way to quote me out of context. This is a thread about competition obedience with a dog. It is you that is out of context. Uh huh. Because how far a trainer goes to help a dog enjoy an activity has nothing at all to do with enthusiasm in the obedience ring. It's okay, you can say you misread what I wrote. It doesn't hurt. Maybe more focus on helping the OP and less theorising is called for. Threshold question to the OP - what's YOUR demeanour like.. Are you nervous? Have you got videos of yourself under competition conditions? Next question - how do you think your dog views heel work.. is it a game or drudgery? Edited June 23, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Yeah well Corvus can only add theory to the conversation...... Deep calming breaths..... Back to the OP...... It might be as simple as you are training too much. I have found Poppy doesn't need half as much work now. The less work and the bouncier the heeling is. If I drill too much I flatten her. It is hard not to train heaps as she is very happy to work but I do get better work in the ring the less I do now. Your dog should be pretty established now. Have a little break and see if you get renewed enthusiasm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Meant to say too that sometimes when something is going wrong we do get tempted to drill and work at it. And that makes it worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 How do you normally train? Maybe look into drive training? I've started to look into it and have been really impressed with what I've seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) Meant to say too that sometimes when something is going wrong we do get tempted to drill and work at it. And that makes it worse. I think you get get yourself into self destructive loops too.. dog not heeling well.. we stress and over train it.. dog gets sour/picks up on competition nerves.. and fails.. so we stress more and train more. If you're expecting trouble in the ring, I think you often get it. Body language changes and we tense up.. dog starts to worry what we're freaking out about.. its certainly the best recipe for lagging I know of.. and I've done it. Lets not forget that there are two members of a team in competition obedience.. sorting out our half of the team is often a good place to start. Its not just about the dog. Edited June 23, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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