How To Get Dog Working With Enthusiasm In The Ring

[LabRat32]

Hi Everyone

I have been a long term viewer but I really need your help.

I have a 3 year old Lab cross and she attained her CCD and Novice really quickly.

We seem to have hit a bit of hurdle with OPEN as when I take her in the ring, I cannot get the same enthusisam and concentration as I get when I am training her. This especially applies for the heeling where in training she is reasonably good but when we step in the ring...she is slow and disinterested.

The last couple of trials have been disappointing as she has not performed to her potential.

Heeling has always been her most inconsistent exercise. It looks like when she goes in the ring, she isn't in the mood for working.

How do I change that.It is frustrating as she doesn't perform well when it really counts...

BTW...one reason could be that I train predominately at night and most of the trial is during the day. I haven't had a night trial to test the theory.

Cheers

[bedazzledx2]

Any chance of a video of your training? It's a bit hard to give specific advice without seeing the whole picture. A couple of things off the top of my head... It has to be rewarding for your dog. That reward does not always come in the form of food..it could be toys, playing with you or whatever floats his boat.

Until you can get a good round in training without the big aids (food/toys) you are unlikely to get it in the ring. In the ring you do have biggest reinforcer....you! Try playing some little games or teach a hand touch and see if that revs him up. There is a lot more to secondary reinforcers but this can get you started.

[dogdude]

Sounds like you need to do some foundation work on her drive. I always found if I had 95% drive in training, then I would get about 80% in a trial. I would aim at about 120% before I would enter, and hope for 95% or better for the trial. Otherwise, I just would'nt enter.

If you cant turn this around you will only get so frustrated that you will probably give up, so my advise is fix it in training properly before you enter.The higher levels require high drive if you want to be in the winners circle.

There is quite alot on youtube regarding drive promotion in your dog. Triangle of Temtation thread would be a good start.

[Mason_Gibbs]

I need to work on getting more drive in the ring, my dog is a foodie and he knows full well if I dont have food on me!

[LabRat32]

You are right Mason!

My dog seem to be context driven. In training she thinks that I have food and reward and will work with good drive even if I don't have food.

In the ring she knows I don't have any food and I can't get the same drive/enthusisam

[wuffles]

I would say that in general, we put our dogs into the ring before they are ready (me included). If they can't do a full round enthusiastically without food in training, why do we expect that they will do it in a trial??

[corvus]

Ken Ramirez has a recipe for secondary reinforcers that I love. It breaks it down and makes it easy. He says an animal has to trust that their primary reinforcement will come. I have the recipe written down somewhere if you want it.

[RubyStar]

Ken Ramirez has a recipe for secondary reinforcers that I love. It breaks it down and makes it easy. He says an animal has to trust that their primary reinforcement will come. I have the recipe written down somewhere if you want it.

I think a few people in this thread would be interested if you're keen to share?

[corvus]

These are notes, so if something doesn't make sense I can probably clarify.

Reinforcement Substitutes

These are conditioned or learned reinforcers used in place of food. E.g. Clapping, toys, tactile, play.

Train them like a new behaviour.

• Reinforcement history

• Relationship

• Implementation

• Experience

Misuse can occur if assumptions are made about what an animal likes.

The animal MUST trust that primary reinforcement will occur.

Training a reinforcement substitute:

• Pick a stimuli that will be useful in training. Something that is easily available, animal may already enjoy, or could be novel.

• Train each new stimuli as a behaviour – present stimuli, click, primary reinforcer.

• Continue until it is clear animal accepts new stimuli.

• Bring to training, starting with an easy, well-established behaviour. Click, new reinforcer, primary reinforcer, behaviour, click, new reinforcer. Only use a maximum of three times in one session.

• Then progress to harder behaviours: click, new reinforcer, primary reinforcer as above. Again, only a maximum of three times in one session.

• Increase use in sessions gradually, with the percentage of reinforcement substitutes never out-weighing the primary reinforcers. Use a maximum of 20/80%.

• This is the first step towards using a variable schedule of reinforcement.

Rules for beginners:

• Never use a reinforcement substitute after two consecutive behaviours.

• Avoid using the same reinforcement substitute twice in succession if you have multiple options.

• Always ask for a behaviour followed by primary reinforcement more often than a substitute.

• Continue to use reinforcement substitutes as a behaviour more often than as a reinforcer.

This is essentially the Premack Principle – reinforce a hard behaviour with an easy behaviour. A reinforcement substitute can become a primary reinforcer, but be very careful to judge this correctly! Never take reinforcement for granted.

Edited June 20, 2011 by corvus

[The Spotted Devil]

Never take reinforcement for granted.

Like

[LabRat32]

Really interesting...

What would you suggest as secondary reinforcement.

I see people in trials do targeting and circles in between exercises...Are these secondary reinforcers?

[corvus]

And here's a little snippet about variable reinforcement schedules. Ken said that many dog trainers aren't systematic enough in how they introduce VRS and thus run into difficulties.

Variable Reinforcement Schedules

The advantage of using VRS is that it has the potential to strengthen behaviour (resistance to extinction), and allows an animal to work long durations without treats.

It can lead to frustration and is not effective unless introduced systematically. Use the same approach as training a reinforcement substitute to introduce a VRS.

Monitor focus in training sessions to tell whether a reinforcer is effective or not. If the focus is good but the behaviour is wrong, the problem is with the cue, not the reinforcer.

Expectations

Animals will develop expectations about reinforcements. They learn this based on how and when they are trained. It is often based on the value to the animal versus the difficulty of the behaviour.

Expectations can be changed

• Must be systematic

• Easiest if planned from start

• Variable use of reinforcement reduces specific expectations

[Mason_Gibbs]

I use touch and stuff between exercises

[Jigsaw]

Cost/benefit analysis by the dog - low probability of reward so won't put an effort into it. Transfer of value from primary to secondary rewards as Corvus said will help build value. Tricks such as touch, spin etc are usually heavily reinforced by handler when training and often subtly by our own behaviour as we're more relaxed when teaching these than formal obedience exercises. Now if I could just get my dog's attention I might even be able to get her to do a spin or touch in the ring!

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

A certain someone I know, has started using a fishing jacket for holding the food. Ie dog doesn't associate no treat bag with no treat.

My dog loves a certain ordinary item that I depend on - as a treat but it's not food.

I've seen other dog trainers use their hat and their lead as tug toys.

I have an A+ reward treat that I only produce on completion of a sequence. And I may show it to dog before I start the sequence so she knows it is on offer. It wouldn't be too hard to have this stashed outside the ring.

But a very high rate of re-inforcement for the dog paying attention to you, should help. And my dog does the down stay the whole time wagging her tail, because guess what we practice before she gets to hook into her dinner? And I don't take dinner to club or trials.

[megan_]

someone also posted about leaving the food in different spots when training (eg on the bench, out of reach of the dog), using a marker word when the dog gets it right and then running with the dog to get the treat. This way the dog doesn't assume no treat on you = no treat.

I've stopped using a treat bag all together and just use a jacket with pockets.

[Yesmaam]

Re "How To Get Dog Working With Enthusiasm In The Ring"

Buy a workingline dog..................

[corvus]

If you can't get enthusiasm out of a dog unless it's a working line dog then I don't think it's the dog that is the trouble... ;) Other people are doing just fine.

[Kavik]

someone also posted about leaving the food in different spots when training (eg on the bench, out of reach of the dog), using a marker word when the dog gets it right and then running with the dog to get the treat. This way the dog doesn't assume no treat on you = no treat.

This Next time I give competition obedience a go I will do something like this. Similar to what I do for agility. Get a good send to the reward, then get them to do a little bit of work and send them to the reward and work up to being able to do the whole routine. I would also teach touch/spin etc for between exercises.

[Yesmaam]

If you can't get enthusiasm out of a dog unless it's a working line dog then I don't think it's the dog that is the trouble... ;) Other people are doing just fine.

It was a joke Corvus but while we're on the subject 'enthusiasm' or 'drive' is genetic, the dog either has it or it doesn’t.

It's not something you can simply inject and you're away.

'Drive' in working line dogs when compared to non-working line dogs is light years apart.

I see too many people fluffing around making more of a commotion than the dog trying to build drive in something that simply doesn’t have it or is very low.

Quite funny to watch actually.............lol