Pretty Miss Emma Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Just wondering from those that have diabetic dogs (or if you're a vet/nurse who has been involved in the treatment of one), do you use human insulin? If so does it manage your dogs diabetes as well as canine insulin (if you have used both)? Is it more cost effective? Em's insulin dose just keeps going up at the moment, so her diabetes alone is costing me about $35 a week - not to mention the other medical issues!! I'm just wondering if people have used human insulin and does it work as well and is it a possible way for me to save some money. I've been struggling to find out much about it on the wonderful www, so thought I'd ask here. And yes, I will chat with my vet about it next time we're in to pick up yet another vial of the caninsulin!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash30Aus Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Hiya, I share your pain, my old dog Lucy's insulin dose has just kept increasing. She started off high and then was dropped down as the blood work stabilised, then its just kept creeping back up again. When I was first introduced to the dose my vet said that if she maintained a high dose we would use human insulin which she told me was cheaper. I believe the issue is with smaller doses and human insulin you can't control the amount so well, as the caninsulin is less concentracted and therefore easier to get exactly the right dose for the dog. Downside being you go through more of it! We paid about $80 for our last vial and that lasts us about a month. What dose is Em on? Lucy is on 19units in a .50 syringe. Hope it helps! Christie Lucy & Dash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 I don't have a dog with Type 1 diabetes, but my daughter has it. I was just curious as to what blood testing you do with dogs? do you do several daily tests with a monitor, or do you rely more on the HBA1C? sorry I know that's off topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash30Aus Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Hi Raineth, Doggies are diagnosed with an initial blood work up that indicates diabetes, and then they keep them in for a day for an 8 hour glucose curve monitoring. Taking blood every hour or so and measuring how the dog reacts to the various levels of food and insulin over that time. In the beginning you go in nearly every week for the glucose curve, and once stable its 1 day every few months. Not much fun for doggies! Or kids I imagine! Christie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raineth Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 wow that's rally interesting. Thanks for the response Flash its quite different to humans then! But kind of the same too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty Miss Emma Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 Thanks Flash30Aus. Emma is on 17.5 units now. Only 2 months ago she was on 10!! But we've had a few problems and so now are trying to restabilise the diabetes. She had a curve done a couple of weeks ago - but it's really expensive so we're doing spot checks weekly at the time she should be lowest and then doing a curve every month or so also. Just when it looks like it's back under control it spikes up again!!!! So we're going through a vial of caninulin every 2 weeks and at $70 a pop it's gettting costly!!! Do you find the human insulin works as well as the caninsulin? Obviously it works out to be a bit cheaper. And if it works just as well then I'll be looking to petition to get her moved on to that!!! Also which brand is Lucy on? I have seen that there are a couple of brands available, wondering which is closest to caninsuln! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash30Aus Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Hi Emma, Sorry if I wasn't clear, we currently use Caninsulin also. My vet just told me at the beginning of our journey we might go to human insulin if her dose was continuing to increase. I haven't yet moved across. But I'd be interested to hear how you go with it! Its a major committment financially and also time. Also since Lucy has pretty much gone completely blind she stresses when she isn't with us, so even my good friend can't babysit her anymore. I was conincidentally at the vets yesterday getting my cats vaccinated, and as I'm pretty much a regular, were talking about Lucy also. My vet was telling me that cats apparently do alot better as diabetics as they still have some insulin function in their bodies when they present with symptoms of diabetes. More similar to how people react. Therefore they can tolerate slight over and under-dosing. Apparently dogs don't show symptoms until there is pretty much no insulin being produced naturally by their bodies, which is why its harder to get the dose correct in dogs. I have to say I'd have never thought I'd give needles as well as I do now! Christie Lucy & Dash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty Miss Emma Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share Posted June 21, 2011 Aha, sorry thought you were on human insulin. How do you manage $80 a month on 19units?! What size is the vial? We get a 10ml one but I didn't think there was a larger one. Having just moved up to 17.5iu I think each vial will last us about 2 weeks, so I think next time we pick one up there will need to be a serious conversation to see if the human alternative is possible. I'm the same as you with the needles. I'm a needle phobe and then ended up with a diabetic dog!!! I'm now excellent at giving needles and have even become a bit braver at receiving them!!! Em had cataracts from the diabetes. We've had a mess of the last 6 months because of it (surgery - which was great - then complications, so she's basically blind again), but she's adapting a bit better and copes really well with places she knows and people she knows it just takes time. If you are interested there is a Yahoo group for people with blind dogs (it's based in the US, but there is some interesting stuff on it and also I'm seeing it as a pretty good support network because so many people on there have been through most of the stuff we're experiencing!!). Anyway, will let you know the results of any insulin conversations I have!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rappie Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 There is a similar human insulin but it's not exactly the same formulation as Caninsulin. If the cost of Caninsulin is becoming problematic then definitely speak to your vet - the human insulin is better than no insulin! There may well be a transition period, perhaps with more frequent blood glucose curves being required. Cats are generally more affected by insulin resistance and glucose toxicity to their insulin producing beta cells, if they are treated swiftly and fairly aggressively with insulin they can go into remission and a non-diabetic state. Dogs generally have insulin dependent diabetes due to a lack of functioning beta cells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash30Aus Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 Hi Emma, I think I must be using a different size syringe to you. Mine are a .50 guage which seems to be a small needle, so 19 units in this needle would be less than 19 units in a bigger needle. I may be running low at week 4-5. I use every little last bit of insulin I can out of the vial! I'm really sorry to hear your cataract surgery didn't go well. I've contemplated this for Lucy, but with her age (we estimate 13-15yrs) and the fact she stresses alot now, I don't think I could put her through it. My basic principal now is to keep her as comfortable and happy for as long as possible. I have faced the fact that due to her age she isn't going to live forever, but I do try and reduce her stress levels as much as possible. I'll still be heartbroken when the time comes though! Let me know how you go with changing insulin? I'm very interested! Thanks, Christie PS: Thanks Rappie for the cat/dog diabetic difference. Appreciate it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty Miss Emma Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 Hi all, Flash30Aus - 19 units should be 19 units regardless of syringe as they are standard units. So now it's just a mystery!! Anyway on the human insulin side of things... Apparently there is only one type of human insulin that can be used in dogs and it's more expensive than Caninsulin!! So that rules that out! Dogs need to have insulin that comes from the pancreas of either pigs or cows and to get it they actually get these from cadavers, thus driving the cost up as it isn't produced synthetically. So I found that quite interesting. I'm assuming it's all accurate information, but will have a chat with my friend Google and see what it has to say!!!! So human insulin no go for the time being!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash30Aus Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Hey Emma, Well that is confusing! I might call my vet tomorrow and see if I can get some more information also. Interesting what you say about the 19 units too. We have 10 mil vials of caninsulin also. We also definitely give Lucy 19 units each morning and night, every day for like, ever! LOL That's kinda gross about the cadaver information, but I guess it makes sense. No wonder its pricey, its amazing what they can do these days. I'll let you know if I find out anything different! Christie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rappie Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 (edited) Flash30Aus - 19 units should be 19 units regardless of syringe as they are standard units. So now it's just a mystery!! Except in the land of insulin!!! Human insulin is 100 IU / ml and the stanard insulin syringes are either 1ml (100 units) or increments of (mainly 0.3ml or 0.5ml). Caninsulin is an exception. The concentration is 40 IU / ml and if we are doing things correctly, then the appropriate syringes are also 40 IU /ml. These are a 1ml syringe, with a scale from 0-40 units. Here comes the tricky part (and where being pedantic is quite important). Sometimes (for reasons of practicality or economy) vets might prescribe Caninsulin and then give an owner standard 100IU syringes. In this case they have converted the dose (in units) to a volume (in millilitres). For example, if a dog is on 10 IU of Caninsulin, but you have a 100IU syringe (of whatever size 0.3ml, 0.5ml or 1ml), the dose is 0.25ml. The tricky part is that this if often referred to by owners (and sometimes, infuriatingly by vets) as "25 units", which is absolutely is not. Edited June 28, 2011 by Rappie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash30Aus Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Thanks Rappie... I'm confused!!! LOL I do know when I've had to go back in to buy syringes I've had to ask for the same .50 syringes I always use, so that explains it abit more... I think! Christie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty Miss Emma Posted June 29, 2011 Author Share Posted June 29, 2011 Sorry, yes Rappie. I'm working on an assumption that Flash30Aus was using the 40iu Caninsulin syringes. We actually use human ones so I have to do a bundle of calculations (ok they're not really that hard!!) to work out Em's dose in a 100iu syringe. But I still know our dose is 17.5iu of 40iu caninsulin twice daily. Oh, if only there were a PBS scheme for dogs!!!! Now we're dealing with silly Miss Em being fussy on her food (insulin dose may be a little too high - currently investigating this!) - so I have to sit and coax her to eat what she's supposed to eat! She sits and sucks the wet food off her dry food!!!! So annoying with a diabetic dog who needs to have a stable diet!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baifra Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 My dog was on the human insulin called Protophane for two years before we lost her to heart failure. We were going through so much caninsulin that it was getting too expensive. We found that her Blood Sugar Levels were perfectly fine on the protophane and half the cost!! We would monitor her Blood Sugar Levels at home using a glucometer so we could keep a close eye on any changes. To get the protophane we would get a script from the vet then go to the pharmacy... I can tell you we got some strange looks from the staff at times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty Miss Emma Posted June 29, 2011 Author Share Posted June 29, 2011 Aha!! I was wondering. Hmm, was this recent or a little bit ago? I ask only as apparently there have been changes to what is available on the market recently (I don't know how recent, but I did read that somewhere the other night). How did you go with monitoring her BGL's? Where did you take your samples from? I was looking at the accu-chek monitor's on ebay the other day and they're only about $30 (give or take) and then obviously the cost of the strips. I'm thinking maybe it's not such a bad idea to get one at that price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baifra Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 We lost her in 2008 so not too long ago. I have no idea what's available now though but if it's still around I would give it a go. You will save a fortune. We took her blood samples from her 'elbow' on her front legs where the fur is worn down. I did a lot of research first and people seemed to be using the dog's gums but I just couldn't do it that way!! Sounded painful. I only did her BGL's when she looked out of sorts or was drinking excessively. I occasionally changed her insulin doses but closely monitored her BGL's for 24 hrs after. I kept a diary of all her results and if there were any changes in her diet or routines which our vet found helpful too. The glucometer's are fairly cheap but yes the strips are expensive, however they come in tubes of 100 so they last a long time. I was a bit 'over the top' I guess but I always knew what was going on with her. I had little cannisters of glucose in the car, my handbag and tied to her leash just in case she had a 'hypo'. She never did thank goodness but I was ready if she did!! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty Miss Emma Posted June 30, 2011 Author Share Posted June 30, 2011 Thanks baifra - most useful!!! Don't worry I have a little sachet of honey that lives in my handbag at all times, and there's always treats on me whenever I go out with Em!!! And she's always a bit high with her BGL, so I get the over the top thing!!! I think the BGL monitor might be a good idea, and will chat to the vet about that insulin you used (and I think maybe the local pharmacy to make sure they stock it and that it will be cost effective if we do end up looking further in to it!). Thanks heaps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baifra Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 No worries at all. Hope it all goes well :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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